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  1. #1
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    Default Mass hold forever, wail never!

    I wish to first thank the devs for adding a few new spell options for caster bards. It's the first step in improving a class that needs a LOT of work if it's to become viable again. The addition of heal with fill a much needed gap in bard single target healing ability (though rejuvenation cocoon did quite a bit for this as well).

    However, I must address the other spell added, wail of the banshee. This is an absolutely TERRIBLE choice for adding a bard spell. Bards have no way to improve their necro DC through class enhancements, and they're certainly not going to take feats for this single spell on a class that's feat starved as it is. Wail of the banshee on a bard is going to be about as useful as stunning blow on a halfling finesse barbarian. It also doesn't fit thematically. Bards are tricksters, enchanters and illusionists (it's an ILLUSION Michael!) I get that you're giving the enhancement the wording "master of life and death" but it still doesn't fit. Combine that with the fact that it's going to be a useless spell on a bard, and I think somebody has made a terrible mistake.

    Fortunately it's still early enough to fix it! Did you know there's *another* level 9 spell that bards everywhere would love to have? A spell that might actually make caster bards viable again in end game (well, that's going a bit far maybe, but it will be another big step). That spell: Mass. Hold. Monster.

    You know it's the right thing to do. Bards are enchanters. For a spellsinger or virtuoso bard that specs for enchantment, it's all they can do. They don't have enough feats for dual specialization, and they don't have any enhancements for anything else. They suck at melee, they don't have nearly the SP pool of a divine caster to compete on healing, they don't have the versatility of wizards, or the power of sorcerers. Give them this one little thing. Pretty please? Oh, also, if you could change it so that it's automatically cast as spell level 9 instead of 6 that would also be very nice. A little olive branch for the bard community if you will
    ~ Cheara : Raizertron : Pozitron : Higgz Bowtron : Illudium : Staphe Infection : Abraa Capocus ~
    Nooby McNoobsalot
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  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default

    Agreed. Wail on a bard is as useful as the dialog in a porn film.

  3. #3

    Default Bow-Chika-Bow-Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Agreed. Wail on a bard is as useful as the dialog in a porn film.
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  4. #4
    Community Member Rusty_Can's Avatar
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    Agreed, Wail of the Banshee is hardly gonna be workable. Mass Hold Monster would definitely be a better choice.

    However, there are a few other options worth considering, if Mass Hold Monster is considered too much:
    - a Greater Shout SLA
    - Sonic Burst, modeled after Draconic Incarnation's Energy Burst (1d10+10/1d12+12/1d15+15 damage per character level, affected by spell power, Maximize and Empower don't apply): 1d5 + 5 per character level?
    On Thelanis: Hallelujah (Spellsinger) - Jerryrigged Juggernaut (caster FvS) - Sepulchral (Druid) - Chopchopchop (Warlock) - Alleyshadow (retired gimped monkcher). Formerly on Keeper : Misericordia (Thug) - Mumbo Jumbo (Battle Caster) - Infernal Can (WF Kinda Cleric) - Halleluyah (Melee Spellsinger).

  5. #5
    Community Member eris2323's Avatar
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    I'd say they should have access to both spells. As well as the ability to choose a shout (Or some type of) SLA.

    Every class should have the equivalent of SLA's, they are game changing.

  6. #6
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    It appears to fit thematically with bards buffing/debuffing. I don't think it is intended to kill on a bard.

    You have bard song already to fill the CC role.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-03-2013 at 02:49 PM.

  7. #7
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    It appears to fit thematically with bards buffing/debuffing. I don't think it is intended to kill on a bard.

    You have bard song already to fill the CC role.
    Any bard, including warchanter with 8 cha, can fascinate with bard song, which is poor CC at best (one AOE or pug who doesn't know what they're doing and it's gone). This is about boosting the abilities of the caster bard, which is right now completely dead in the water and not even remotely worth playing, unless you like playing a not very efficient healbot.
    ~ Cheara : Raizertron : Pozitron : Higgz Bowtron : Illudium : Staphe Infection : Abraa Capocus ~
    Nooby McNoobsalot
    Ghallanda Rerolled

  8. #8
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Yes, it does fit thematically with the bard (the banshee being a fae/fairy-like woman whose scream paralyzes, horrifies, or outright kills, or is an omen of death).

    In-game, however, it's a horrible spell choice. Bards simply cannot (and should not try to) have high enough DC's for necromancy spells. That leaves this as a mass enervation/negative energy drain, which really isn't all that useful, especially since the last the last thing a spellsinger needs to do is get into the thick of combat and get aggro.

    Personally, aside from the oh-so-lovely Mass Hold Monster, why not give bards SLA's of other enchantment spells? Give them SLA's like an enchantment-based archmage, and have them stay a flat SP cost regardless of metamagics used (since bards have very low SP compared to most wizards and clerics and only a cut above most artificers).

    Better yet, I'd be happy if their Spellsong Vigor scaled better as they leveled. Even a long-lasting song is barely going to fill as much SP as the lowest possible from a major mnemonic pot. This means diddly-squat at end-game.

    Also, the whole wand-heightening being a prerequisite for wand/scroll mastery is complete rubbish.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 07-03-2013 at 08:16 PM.

  9. #9
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    Another option would be to give Bards Greater Command as a SLA. The Bard's Cloak that drops in A Vision of Destruction has it as a clickie so I cant see why not.

  10. #10
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    If you want so much wail for the bards, can't you switch the dc for bards, so it's going to perform, or at least enchantment?
    I'd like better hold mass, but it could be a solution
    Necromancy on a bard it's really useless

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