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  1. #1
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    Default Paladin enheancement help

    I'm contemplating doing a human 18/2 paladin/monk life with DoS III. Just looking over the enhancements list it appears you could spend about 125 pts without wasting any on anything unnecessary. So, I was hoping to get some insights from someone knowledgeable on the topic to pair the following list down:

    10 - Toughness IV
    6 - Unyielding Sov
    12 - charisma III
    8 - redemption III
    10 - Divine Might IV
    1 - Divine Righteousness I
    6 - Divine Sacrifice III
    10 - Devotion IV
    6 - extra LoH III

    8 - Defender of sib III
    1 - AC Boost I
    1 - Courage of Good I
    6 - Bulwark of Good III
    6 - resistance of good III

    10 - Human Vers IV
    12 - Imp Recovery III
    2 - Adaptability
    4 - greater adaptability
    6 - racial toughness III
    =125

    Non-negotiable would be the second section which is requirements for DoS III (and also Unyielding Sov and it's pre-req). I figure the easiest to cut back on is some toughness, as I should have plenty of HP anyway, but I need to lose like 45 worth so I need to know how good some of the abilities are like Divine Sacrifice (looks like a nice damage boost on paper) and DM IV. I'd prefer to leave the 3rd section alone as well if possible, though imp rec II is damned expensive as is Human Vers IV.

    I was thinking something like:
    3 - Toughness II
    6 - Unyielding Sov
    6 - charisma II
    4 - redemption I
    6 - Divine Might III
    1 - Divine Righteousness I
    6 - Devotion III
    3 - extra LoH II

    8 - Defender of sib III
    1 - AC Boost I
    1 - Courage of Good I
    6 - Bulwark of Good III
    6 - resistance of good III

    6 - Human Vers III
    6 - Imp Recovery II
    2 - Adaptability
    4 - greater adaptability
    3 - racial toughness II
    =78

    Leaves me 2 pts... but the sacrifices I made there hurt. Any input (other than "that's a flavor build and sword and board isn't worth playing anymore")?

  2. #2

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    Yeah, enhancement pruning for pallies is rough. Here's some big savings you can get without too much pain:

    Human Versatility 1
    Action boosts are front-loaded, so only taking tier 1 gets you much of the power for minimal cost.

    Divine Sacrifice I
    The major value of divine sacrifice is +1 crit multiplier, which is granted by tier 1. The other tiers don't add enough to warrant the AP.

    Greater Adaptability
    I rarely (if ever) take greater because it costs so much and it can't be spent on the same stat as regular adaptability. I can never justify spending 4 AP on a single stat point for a stat that isn't my primary stat, which by definition is what greater adaptability applies to.

    Charisma
    My pally doesn't spend anything on charisma. This doesn't help qualify for divine might. At very least I'd take it down to cha I instead of III.

    Toughness II
    I found that keeping toughness to rank 2 strikes a good balance of cost vs benefit. Racial II + Class II = 40 HP for 6 AP. You sacrifice 40 HP to save 10 AP. (14 AP when this lets you skip greater adaptability: con)

    Improved Recovery II
    Losing amp sucks hard, but if push comes to shove and you really need to save that 6 AP for tier 3 it can be justified.



    I don't see exalted smite in your list?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Yeah, enhancement pruning for pallies is rough. Here's some big savings you can get without too much pain:

    Human Versatility 1
    Action boosts are front-loaded, so only taking tier 1 gets you much of the power for minimal cost.

    Divine Sacrifice I
    The major value of divine sacrifice is +1 crit multiplier, which is granted by tier 1. The other tiers don't add enough to warrant the AP.

    Greater Adaptability
    I rarely (if ever) take greater because it costs so much and it can't be spent on the same stat as regular adaptability. I can never justify spending 4 AP on a single stat point for a stat that isn't my primary stat, which by definition is what greater adaptability applies to.

    Charisma
    My pally doesn't spend anything on charisma. This doesn't help qualify for divine might. At very least I'd take it down to cha I instead of III.

    Toughness II
    I found that keeping toughness to rank 2 strikes a good balance of cost vs benefit. Racial II + Class II = 40 HP for 6 AP. You sacrifice 40 HP to save 10 AP. (14 AP when this lets you skip greater adaptability: con)

    Improved Recovery II
    Losing amp sucks hard, but if push comes to shove and you really need to save that 6 AP for tier 3 it can be justified.



    I don't see exalted smite in your list?
    Great feedback, thanks. I have more questions now of course:
    Is there an activation time (pause) when you use the enhancement attacks like DS, DM, etc. like there is when you use ED attacks (adrenaline, momentum swing, etc), cleaves, and tactical feats (trip, stunning blow)? If so are they still worth it?

    I hesitate sacrificing str, con, or cha since they affect my att/dam, hp/fort save, and all saves. Those are pretty big.

    I've heard Human Versatility is the bomb... I just don't see it on paper really, looks good but not amazing. Still, from what I had heard previously I'm surprised you cut it to first tier.

    Do you recommend DM IV?

    Leaving out smite was just an oversight, it was supposed to be in there.

    How does this look:
    3 - Toughness II
    6 - Unyielding Sov
    6 - charisma II
    4 - redemption I
    10 - Divine Might IV
    1 - Divine Righteousness I
    6 - Devotion III
    3 - extra LoH II
    1 - divine sacrifice I
    1 - exalted smite I
    1 - extra smite evil I

    8 - Defender of sib III
    1 - AC Boost I
    1 - Courage of Good I
    6 - Bulwark of Good III
    6 - resistance of good III


    1 - Human Vers I
    6 - Imp Recovery II
    2 - Adaptability
    4 - greater adaptability
    3 - racial toughness II
    =80

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Great feedback, thanks. I have more questions now of course:
    Is there an activation time (pause) when you use the enhancement attacks like DS, DM, etc. like there is when you use ED attacks (adrenaline, momentum swing, etc), cleaves, and tactical feats (trip, stunning blow)? If so are they still worth it?
    DS has no activation or special animation at all it just adds damage to that attack.
    DM has a painfully long activation animation but it lasts for a full minute but it's a huge boost to damage so try and use it as your running into combat.

    I hesitate sacrificing str, con, or cha since they affect my att/dam, hp/fort save, and all saves. Those are pretty big.
    Remember it's only maybe worthwhile if those put you at even numbers for those stats. Your saves are likely to be through the roof even without the charisma buff.

    I've heard Human Versatility is the bomb... I just don't see it on paper really, looks good but not amazing. Still, from what I had heard previously I'm surprised you cut it to first tier.
    I personally have never used human versatility I can't stand ridiculously short term boosts.

    Do you recommend DM IV?
    It's a substantial boost to your damage and at cap you will likely have enough turn undeads to keep it going non-stop.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    I hesitate sacrificing str, con, or cha since they affect my att/dam, hp/fort save, and all saves. Those are pretty big.
    Those build concepts are indeed pretty big, but the ROI of the enhancements that boost them aren't worth the cost for such minimal gain. I definitely recommend human adaptability I for strength, but wouldn't spend AP on any others.

    I've heard Human Versatility is the bomb... I just don't see it on paper really, looks good but not amazing. Still, from what I had heard previously I'm surprised you cut it to first tier.
    It's really only good when used in combination with haste boost, and the reason it's good is because it can be used at the same time as haste boost. Without haste boost it's kind of meh at best.

    Do you recommend DM IV?
    No, because it tends to gimp your build. How do you plan on hitting 20 cha? Base 16 cha +4 tome? Too costly, IMO. I'd recommend either base 15 cha +3 tome for DMIII or (even better) base 14 cha +4 tome next time +4 tomes come to the DDO store. I would try to avoid putting levelups in charisma; I prefer all levelups to strength.

    If you meant do I consider the DM line to be worthwhile, yes, it's the best pally buff there is.

    How does this look:
    Couple minor issues:
    - Exalted Smite I has a prereq of Extra Smite II, and you only took extra I.
    - I'd much rather have Devotion IV than Greater Adaptability
    - My gut reaction is that you physically can't take that list of enhancements due to progression requirements.

  6. #6

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    I don't see the capstone, so I'm assuming 18/2 pally/fighter, yes?

    If so, then yeah, fighter haste boost I + human versatility I is the way to go.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Those build concepts are indeed pretty big, but the ROI of the enhancements that boost them aren't worth the cost for such minimal gain. I definitely recommend human adaptability I for strength, but wouldn't spend AP on any others.

    It's really only good when used in combination with haste boost, and the reason it's good is because it can be used at the same time as haste boost. Without haste boost it's kind of meh at best.

    No, because it tends to gimp your build. How do you plan on hitting 20 cha? Base 16 cha +4 tome? Too costly, IMO. I'd recommend either base 15 cha +3 tome for DMIII or (even better) base 14 cha +4 tome next time +4 tomes come to the DDO store. I would try to avoid putting levelups in charisma; I prefer all levelups to strength.

    If you meant do I consider the DM line to be worthwhile, yes, it's the best pally buff there is.

    Couple minor issues:
    - Exalted Smite I has a prereq of Extra Smite II, and you only took extra I.
    - I'd much rather have Devotion IV than Greater Adaptability
    - My gut reaction is that you physically can't take that list of enhancements due to progression requirements.
    Again, thanks!

    Clearly I wasn't paying close attention to the pre-reqs. I agree that the investment into DM IV isn't worth it, I have a +4 tome and was tentatively planning on 14 base + tome, so that should be fine and frees up 4 pts.

    Extra Smite II seems like a sound investment, and a place to spend those extra pts.

    As far as the stats go, I guess I will wait to see what I think my stats will be fully equipped before making that call. I also don't know yet if I'll play to cap (and for how long there) or if I'll just immediately TR at 20 since I am planning a bunch of past lives, and that will impact my decisions regarding building for end game or not. My instinct is that I'll want to play to cap and stay there for a week or two just to see if I like the build there.

    The build is planned as 18/2 with the 2 being monk for evasion and 2 feats. Here is the planned feats:
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Axe
    Shield Mastery
    Power attack
    Two-handed Fighting
    Cleave
    Great Cleave
    Improved Critical
    Improved THF
    Toughness
    Improved Shield Mastery
    overwhelming critical
    Greater THF

  8. #8
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    FWIW, here's my pal 18 / monk 2 S&B DoS build:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 25 Lawful Good Human Male
    (18 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 5 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 413
    Spell Points: 260 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 25
    Reflex: 18
    Will: 16
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
    Strength             16                    25
    Dexterity            11                    13
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence         11                    13
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             16                    18
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
    Level 1 (Monk)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 3 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 4 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 6 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 7 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
    
    
    Level 8 (Monk)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
    
    
    Level 9 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 11 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 12 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
    
    
    Level 13 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
    Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion III
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Paladin)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
    Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
    Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Devotion IV
    Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
    Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
    
    
    Level 21 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 22 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 23 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 24 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 25 (Paladin)
    If you don't want CE, you can drop INT and rearrange feats to take Overwhelming Crit instead. Alternatively, you could drop the THF feats to add a couple of metamagics for better healing.

    For S&B pallies, b.sword beats d.axe for the better crit range (works better w/Smite & Divine Sacrifice); also I believe Nightmare is better than any comparable epic d.axe. eFang used to be the best b.sword, but now it's only useful as an interim weapon while you're gearing up, IMHO.

    Skills: I maxed Intim, UMD, and Concentration; extra pts into Balance.

  9. #9
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Why would you splash 2 levels of monk if you are going to be using a shield? You lose evasion so your better off taking 2 fighter instead.

    If you drop the shield and go two handed I would change your feats to something like this:

    1-THF, PA(monk), Cleave(human)
    2-toughness(monk)
    3-great cleave
    6-diehard for DoS
    9-imp crit slashing
    12-ITHF
    15-GTHF
    18-Emp Healing
    21-OC
    And your feat at 24 is free for whatever else you want.

    Enhancements I would get:
    AC Boost 1
    Human Amp 3
    Human versatility 2
    Extra smite evil 3
    Extra LoH 3(these are your saving grace)
    Exalted smite 2
    Divine sacrifice 1
    Racial toughness 1
    Paladin toughness 2
    Paladin charisma 2(whatever brings you to an even Cha score for me it's always been 2)
    Divine Might 3
    Aura resistance 3
    Aura bulwark 3
    The other two aura pre reqs just get tier one of
    Human adaptability 1 and 2 use to even out odd stats


    And there might be a few more points to splash elsewhere I can't exactly remember all the enhancements I took for all my pally lives.

    Tokun PDK 12 Monk/4 Paladin/4 Fighter (3x Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/2x Bard, Barbarian PL)
    Tekllin Human 20 Sorc (3x Sorc, Wiz PL)
    Jadokis Purple Dragon Knight 18 Barbarian/1 Favored Soul/1 Fighter (3x Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue/2x Favored Soul/Heroic and Epic Completionist)
    Degenerate Matter

  10. #10
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    FWIW, here's my pal 18 / monk 2 S&B DoS build:
    Just a general question on a S&B build;

    Do you normally swing a big two-hander like a great axe, then situationally switch to d-axe or b-sword with shield? Or do you keep the shield equipped most of the time?

  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    Why would you splash 2 levels of monk if you are going to be using a shield? You lose evasion so your better off taking 2 fighter instead.
    Shields do NOT cause you to lose Evasion; only wearing med or hvy armor does (or being encumbered or helpless).
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Do you normally swing a big two-hander like a great axe, then situationally switch to d-axe or b-sword with shield? Or do you keep the shield equipped most of the time?
    The usual tank advice is: swing a 2H weapon w/Power Atk on until you need extra PRR / AC / threat amp; then switch to S&B (and possibly CE). The Shield Mastery feats help S&B builds close the DPS gap with 2H weapons, but it still lags behind.

  12. #12
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Could have sworn it did, but I stand corrected. Although I still think that if your going to use a sword and shield 2 fighter is the better splash.

    Tokun PDK 12 Monk/4 Paladin/4 Fighter (3x Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/2x Bard, Barbarian PL)
    Tekllin Human 20 Sorc (3x Sorc, Wiz PL)
    Jadokis Purple Dragon Knight 18 Barbarian/1 Favored Soul/1 Fighter (3x Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue/2x Favored Soul/Heroic and Epic Completionist)
    Degenerate Matter

  13. #13
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Either splash gets you 2 extra feats. Monk 2 also gets you Evasion & +3 to all saves; ftr 2 gets you Haste Boost I, tower shield prof (meets DoS pre-req), +1 STR enh, and +3 to Fort saves only. Not having Haste Boost is unfortunate, but you can Twist it in from Legendary Dreadnaught if you really want; and Master's Touch adds tower shield prof if you need it. Whereas the only other way to add Evasion to a pally tank would be maxing out Shadowdancer or Primal Avatar, neither of which is ideal for tanking. Considering how hard epic casters can hit, I'd rather have Evasion on my aggro magnets.

    Another option is ftr 1 / wiz 1; I did this on my Bladeforged pally. The wiz splash gets a metamagic (Quicken in my case), Repair I enh (BF get Repair as pally spells and will get Reconstruct SLA, so this helps out), and Echoes of Power (twist in Endless Faith and basically never run out of SPs).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Just a general question on a S&B build;

    Do you normally swing a big two-hander like a great axe, then situationally switch to d-axe or b-sword with shield? Or do you keep the shield equipped most of the time?
    I have big two-handers (Cleaver, Breach, Skybreaker, Sireth) but my plan is to stick to the bread and butter and rely on double strike (which should get to 31% with shield). I'm not necessarily intending to be old-school tank, since I hear that even with great AC this is no longer viable in end game EE, but rather just a well defensed, self-sufficient melee. I figure compared to my current 12rgr/8ftr (which kicks some butt!) I should lose about 20-25% melee damage and all of my bow damage (sad panda), but play a new style with more AC, more buffing/healing, and much more PRR to see if I like it. If I were to go the 2-hander route I'd probably just go Kensei III or Juggernaut (or maybe a melee divine).

    I picked D-axe because a) duergar axes have the best crit profile of any weapon that pairs well with a shield b) I'll be stuck in LD anyway, and axes are better in LD than swords and c) I happen to have a bunch of good d-axes including 2 duergar (stunning and vertigo).

    I also contemplated building as pure 20 ftr, possibly helf for the paly dilly. But when I though about losing bow feats, and evasion, and self healing (except for scrolls at high level) it just didn't appeal as much (though I'll miss having stun and imp-trip on this build). I may try one, then the other.

    Has anyone played both and can give an opinion of the comparison?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    I have big two-handers (Cleaver, Breach, Skybreaker, Sireth) but my plan is to stick to the bread and butter and rely on double strike (which should get to 31% with shield). I'm not necessarily intending to be old-school tank, since I hear that even with great AC this is no longer viable in end game EE, but rather just a well defensed, self-sufficient melee. I figure compared to my current 12rgr/8ftr (which kicks some butt!) I should lose about 20-25% melee damage and all of my bow damage (sad panda), but play a new style with more AC, more buffing/healing, and much more PRR to see if I like it. If I were to go the 2-hander route I'd probably just go Kensei III or Juggernaut (or maybe a melee divine).

    I picked D-axe because a) duergar axes have the best crit profile of any weapon that pairs well with a shield b) I'll be stuck in LD anyway, and axes are better in LD than swords and c) I happen to have a bunch of good d-axes including 2 duergar (stunning and vertigo).

    I also contemplated building as pure 20 ftr, possibly helf for the paly dilly. But when I though about losing bow feats, and evasion, and self healing (except for scrolls at high level) it just didn't appeal as much (though I'll miss having stun and imp-trip on this build). I may try one, then the other.

    Has anyone played both and can give an opinion of the comparison?
    The fighter version is planned with these feats:
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Axe
    Power attack
    Cleave
    Two-handed Fighting
    Weapon Focus
    Great Cleave
    Toughness
    Shield Mastery
    Weapon Specialization
    Improved Critical
    Improved THF
    Greater Weapon Specialization
    Greater THF
    Improved Shield Mastery
    Dodge
    stunning blow
    combat expertise
    imp trip
    quickdraw
    overwhelming critical

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