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  1. #1
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    Default Soloist Rog12/Rng6/Ftr2 for past life

    Hello.

    I'm thinking about TRing into rogue for a past life. Haven't played TWF-based characters before, so decided to try that too. Will the following build work for heroic levels, considering that I'm soloing for 99% of the time? I don't mind using a healing hire, actually I used them all the time leveling barb before

    Currently I have no plans on playing epics much on this character.

    Perhaps I've missed some important sinergy/etc, any advice appreciated

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02 
    DDO Character Planner Home Page  
    
    rogue
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Female 
    (2 Fighter / 12 Rogue / 6 Ranger) 
    Hit Points: 250 
    Spell Points: 50 
    
    BAB: 17/17/22/27/27 
    Fortitude: 15 
    Reflex: 16 
    Will: 6 
    
                  Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
    Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
    (34 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
    Strength           18                26 
    Dexterity          14                17 
    Constitution       14                17 
    Intelligence       14                17 
    Wisdom              8                11 
    Charisma            8                11 
    
    Tomes Used 
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 2 
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 2 
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 2 
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 2 
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 2 
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 2 
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 6 
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6 
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6 
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6 
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 6 
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6 
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 10 
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 10 
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 10 
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 10 
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 10 
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 10 
     
                  Starting      Ending    Feat/Enhancement 
                 Base Skills  Base Skills  Modified Skills 
    Skills       (Level 1)    (Level 20)      (Level 20) 
    Balance            6              26               26 
    Bluff              3              7                7 
    Concentration      2              15               15 
    Diplomacy          -1             0                0 
    Disable Device     6              26               26 
    Haggle             3              23               23 
    Heal               -1             0                0 
    Hide               6              26               26 
    Intimidate         -1             0                2 
    Jump               8              31               31 
    Listen             -1             0                0 
    Move Silently      6              26               26 
    Open Lock          6              26               26 
    Perform            n/a            n/a              n/a 
    Repair             2              3                3 
    Search             6              26               26 
    Spot               -1             0                0 
    Swim               4              8                8 
    Tumble             6              7                7 
    Use Magic Device   3              23               23 
     
    Level 1 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+4) 
    Skill: Bluff (+4) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+4) 
    Skill: Haggle (+4) 
    Skill: Hide (+4) 
    Skill: Jump (+4) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+4) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+4) 
    Skill: Search (+4) 
    Skill: Tumble (+4) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4) 
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge 
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian 
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack 
    Feat: (Automatic) Attack 
    Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability 
    Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency 
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier 
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword 
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow 
    Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency 
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak 
    Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack 
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding 
     
    Level 2 (Ranger) 
    Skill: Concentration (+5) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead 
    Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength 
    Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting 
    Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL) 
    Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General) 
    Feat: (Automatic) Sunder 
    Feat: (Automatic) Trip 
    Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy 
     
    Level 3 (Ranger) 
    Skill: Concentration (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Berserker's Fury 
    Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot 
    Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting 
     
    Level 4 (Fighter) 
    Ability Raise: STR 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh 
    Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency 
    Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency 
    Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency 
     
    Level 5 (Ranger) 
    Skill: Concentration (+2) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Hide (+2) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Feat: (Automatic) Diehard 
     
    Level 6 (Ranger) 
    Skill: Concentration (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Selected) Mobility 
    Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot 
     
    Level 7 (Ranger) 
    Skill: Concentration (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+2) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider 
     
    Level 8 (Rogue) 
    Ability Raise: STR 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+7) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+3) 
    Feat: (Automatic) Evasion 
     
    Level 9 (Ranger) 
    Skill: Concentration (+2) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Hide (+2) 
    Skill: Jump (+2) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack 
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting 
    Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot 
     
    Level 10 (Fighter) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons  
    
    Level 11 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+2) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+2) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+3) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4) 
    Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense 
     
    Level 12 (Rogue) 
    Ability Raise: STR 
    Skill: Balance (+8) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave 
    Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking 
    Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge 
    Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge (Dodge Bonus) 
     
    Level 13 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+2) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+4) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+2) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
     
    Level 14 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Hide (+4) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+2) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
     
    Level 15 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Haggle (+2) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+3) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting 
     
    Level 16 (Rogue) 
    Ability Raise: STR 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Haggle (+4) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge 
     
    Level 17 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Haggle (+4) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
     
    Level 18 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Haggle (+4) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave 
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion 
     
    Level 19 (Rogue) 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Haggle (+4) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: Open Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1) 
     
    Level 20 (Rogue) 
    Ability Raise: STR 
    Skill: Balance (+1) 
    Skill: Bluff (+3) 
    Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
    Skill: Haggle (+1) 
    Skill: Hide (+1) 
    Skill: Jump (+1) 
    Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
    Skill: OOpen Lock (+1) 
    Skill: Search (+1) 
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

  2. #2
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    The one thing I would criticise is the feat order. Lower levels favour THF due to the low offhand proc rate and to-hit penalty until you get gear/ITWF/GTWF, so you're better off taking your cleave feats and using your best two-hander until you get some TWF feats. In this case, you may need to take your fighter levels early to meet the BAB requirement.

    I would personally also drop Khopesh for some sort of CC since you're a soloist. Stunning Blow, if you can get your DCs up, would work really well in conjunction with your sneak attack. Alternatively, Sap is a no-save dazing attack. It does not give a damage bonus, but it puts an enemy out of commission for a quarter minute. This doesn't play well with aggressive hirelings though, since once a sapped enemy takes damage, it wakes up.

    I don't think you need to pump the Jump skill. Pots, gear, strength, and buffs will generally have you covered. The Bluff skill is supposed to enable sneak attack even on an enemy that is aware of you, and Concentration might be handy if you're going to be scroll healing.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalone View Post
    The one thing I would criticise is the feat order. Lower levels favour THF due to the low offhand proc rate and to-hit penalty until you get gear/ITWF/GTWF, so you're better off taking your cleave feats and using your best two-hander until you get some TWF feats. In this case, you may need to take your fighter levels early to meet the BAB requirement.

    I would personally also drop Khopesh for some sort of CC since you're a soloist. Stunning Blow, if you can get your DCs up, would work really well in conjunction with your sneak attack. Alternatively, Sap is a no-save dazing attack. It does not give a damage bonus, but it puts an enemy out of commission for a quarter minute. This doesn't play well with aggressive hirelings though, since once a sapped enemy takes damage, it wakes up.

    I don't think you need to pump the Jump skill. Pots, gear, strength, and buffs will generally have you covered. The Bluff skill is supposed to enable sneak attack even on an enemy that is aware of you, and Concentration might be handy if you're going to be scroll healing.
    Thank you for commenting. About feat order - I think I will use carnifex till about lvl9, where i'll get 70% TWF proc. Not much point using 2wf until you get good proc rate, right?

    About stunning blow. I got it on my current character, barb. Even with that 60+ strength and (lvl20 one but still) belt with +5 tactical feats success rate, my barb cant reliably stun mobs. So I dont think that 30+ str will get me some useful stuns, unfortunately.

    Actually, I'm most concerned about cleave/great cleave order. Should I get them early? But with 2WF they wouldnt proc all that much. I think about them as some kind AoE attacks, as I miss any with this build. Will it help me much/any at all?

    And about khopesh. I just want to use khopesh Somehow. Perhaps not in the best way. But I like it too much

  4. #4
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    Yes, it is still beneficial to take cleave attacks even if TWF. With your build in TWF mode, you are getting 1.9 attacks per swing against single targets. So if you are attacking two or more monsters, you are getting 2+ attacks per swing, including special weapon effects, even though your offhand does not do anything with cleaves. I too use a Carnifex at low levels, and a common tactic is to gather a group of monsters, then Cleave and Great Cleave in sequence. In the low levels, this kills very quickly.

    Regarding Stunning Blow, are you targetting weak saves? It uses a Fortitude save, so it's best to use against casters. The class split I am using on TRs is ROG/ART 2 + FTR 8 + whatever. This gives me a stun DC of around 36 at Gianthold level (10 base + 9 STR + 1 FTR PL + 4 Spare Hand + 8 item + 1 Kensai + 3 FTR enhancement). I typically run elite and didn't have issues stunning casters, and even some melees, except in the more difficult quests. With your barb, naked, you would already have 10 base + 25 STR for a DC of 35. I have a stunning weapon that I equip to boost DCs just before I use Stunning Blow, then immediately switch to a proper weapon.

    Your DC on your class split will be harder to get high DCs. Compared to me, you would have +2 from STR, -1 PL, -1 Kensai, -2 enhancements for a total of -2. You could overcome this by using a +10 stunning item (I use Cannith-crafted +1 Metalline Flametouched of Stunning +8 to break most DR) and/or drinking rage pots. Improved Sunder also give a temporary Fortitude debuff.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalone View Post
    Yes, it is still beneficial to take cleave attacks even if TWF. With your build in TWF mode, you are getting 1.9 attacks per swing against single targets. So if you are attacking two or more monsters, you are getting 2+ attacks per swing, including special weapon effects, even though your offhand does not do anything with cleaves. I too use a Carnifex at low levels, and a common tactic is to gather a group of monsters, then Cleave and Great Cleave in sequence. In the low levels, this kills very quickly.
    Thank you. So revised feat list would be:

    1 Rog: Power attack, Toughness
    3 Rng: Cleave
    4 Ftr: Dodge
    6 Rng: GCleave (replace with Khopesh @12)
    9 Rng: Mobility
    10 Ftr: IC Slashing
    12 Rog: Spring Attack
    15 Rog: GTWF or GCleave, depends how it will plays out
    18 Rog: GCleave or GTWF

    Using Carnifex/etc until lvl12, switching to TWF with GS lit2 khopeshes after that.
    Not sure if fighter bonus feats can be replaced at Fred, otherwise it'll be GCleave@4.

    Unfortunately it looks like stunning blow can't be fit in, pretty tight on feats as it is.

  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    My only suggestions are:
    1. Go rog 13 / rgr 6 / ftr 1 - that gets you +1d6 SA and extra rog feat (Imp Evasion + Opportunist FTW). Unless you plan to sit @ 18 until you're ready to TR again, in which case it doesn't matter what you do with the last two lvls.
    2. Consider skipping or delaying Tempest I. Right now it only adds +10% offhand proc, which isn't a good return on 3 feats, IMHO. Plus in the Enhancement overhaul, they've dropped the feat pre-reqs for Tempest; so if that goes live before you finish this life, you won't need `em anyway. That makes room for, say, khopesh prof. or tactics feats (tho DCs will be an issue).

  7. #7
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalone View Post
    Yes, it is still beneficial to take cleave attacks even if TWF.
    I'd go so far as to say that great cleave is a _necessity_. It's a pre-req for overwhelming critical. Any build calling itself a dps build should have OC.

    You also need cleave/great cleave to cut the cooldowns for momentum swing (and lay waste in turn) to get the most out of legendary dreadnought.

    You can get by with just cleave but you'll double your momentum swing opportunities by having great cleave.

    I don't think you can seriously call your build a melee dps build without the cleaves...

  8. #8
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    Thank you all again. So the latest feat list looks like that:

    1 Rog: Power attack, Toughness
    3 Rng: Cleave
    4 Ftr: Dodge
    6 Rng: GCleave
    9 Rng: IC: Slashing
    10 Ftr: EWP: Khopesh
    12 Rog: GTWF
    15 Rog: Mobility
    18 Rog: Spring Attack (w/tempest I finally)

    As I wouldnt use khopeshes until GS ones no point in taking them @4, dodge gives some benefit at least.

    I played several first levels and I did miss cleaves so much! I agree, cleaves are pretty much required (and fun!) now not only in epic play, but in heroic too.

    I dont think this character will see much Epics, so OC is out of question (but will surely take it if ever gets to 21). And as I indent to stay @18, this build is mostly 10/6/2, so while opportunist looks very promising (I did consider 13/6/1 at first actually) I wouldnt get it till 19 or 20.. where I'll just TR again.

    PS Looking for advice on some 2H weapon in 9-12 range that I can use after I'll get IC:S and Carnifex will lose about half of its niceness Perhaps just holy burst falch +X will do?

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