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  1. #21
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    My rogue/shadowdancer soloed EE in FR. The key to completion was to remember to play as a rogue, so quests took a little longer.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxallu View Post
    Everyone does well on EH. Eh is a joke. EE is a joke for the most part too. My toon constantly runs EEs and nope, he's not a shiradi sorc. If anything, this game needs to be made more challenging.

    Nice to see that some people are still scared of EEs though.
    Opinions can be useful, they can also be useless. This is an example of the latter, because your opinion is directly opposed by fact. The fact is that MOST people in the game don't even play epic levels. The fact is that MOST of those who do, run epic hard MOST of the time.

    The point of this thread, that may have gotten lost amongst all the self-congratulatory back patting, is that characters built for standard gameplay do not perform the same in other stratas of the game, even if they are augmented through grinding. Likewise, characters built for epic elite often serve very little purpose in groups running standard content. You casting magic missiles on that mob two seconds before it gets instakilled serves absolutely no purpose.

    I am in no way scared of epic elite. I would be playing "elite" almost every time if that was actually the case. To me, it is not elite at all. It is slow, boring, and pre-determined grind. If the game slows down to a certain rate or less, it stops working as a game for me. And while many of you will make claims that you can cruise through epic elite at lightning speed - I doubt you'll be claiming that epic hard slows you down. So why would I grind to cruise through epic elite at a fast rate, when that would leave me no future option for achieving challenge? Currently, epic hard in a small group (3-4) at a good rate of dungeon "crawl" is still entertaining, at least to me.

    That is the mindset the developers need to understand. Otherwise they will fix your Epic Destinies by taking them away.
    Last edited by Raithe; 07-01-2013 at 08:25 AM.

  3. #23
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    DDO never really needed three (or five) different games. One would have worked well enough, with proper balance.
    If a dev, even bothered reading this thread, right here she spit his coffee onto the screen, and decided she was done with this thread.

    "It's easy... well as long you design proper balance".

    Yeah, how hard could that possibly be to make a quest that is fun for a 7-year vet powergamer, AND for a 1-day casual new player. It's simple! Just need the proper balance!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  4. #24
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Yeah, how hard could that possibly be to make a quest that is fun for a 7-year vet powergamer, AND for a 1-day casual new player. It's simple! Just need the proper balance!
    Balance is a mandatory condition for thousands of games developed in hundreds to thousands of genres. Just off the top of my head, the first time you play Pinochle is pretty much the same game that a world champion Pinochle player would play. The same is true for dozens of online games, including MMOs (and DDO is really just a first person shooter). It has been done to death.

    You are correct in your assumption, however, that the developers are probably as naive and inexperienced as you are about game design. They probably got their job because they showed massive enthusiasm for the type of game. Unfortunately, in this particular sector, that usually means metagamer and a severely skewed sense of game balance.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Yeah, but if you have outgrown the normal/hard epic content by playing the Shiradi Sorc only, this says it all about the state of affairs in DDO. There is one class and one class alone for running EE raid content, throw in the occasional FaV or Druid (Shiradi recommended ^^) for healbot and here we go.

    Ok, I can understand that not every undergeared flavor-build has the right to prevail in EE, especially w/o maxed out EDs, but why on Gods Earth are there only a few of the ED builds possible to run EE content on the easy button and all others are left out? Playing Magister, Draconic? Playing Avenger, playing Angel? What for? I cannot even prevail in the most basic scenarios of EE on the GH raid, except as a healer. Shiradi Sorc? No problem, boys, the cannon will kill...

    That´s simple bad scaling and bad balancing in the EDs, nothing else. They near-to nerfed everything else into oblivion by either cooldown, nerfing damage or both, now only Shiradi left? The solution countrary to Turbine oppinion would not be nerfing the Shiradi as well. NO! The solution would be to make other EDs play-worth.
    I think Shiradi Sorcs and Juggs are builds for people who aren't ready to do EEs to experience them and learn how to do them. Once people learn Epic Elites, it's better to switch to a different build, especially with Shiradi Sorcs. While they're powerful in inexperienced hands, other builds are more powerful in experienced hands.

  6. #26
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Balance is a mandatory condition for thousands of games developed in hundreds to thousands of genres. Just off the top of my head, the first time you play Pinochle is pretty much the same game that a world champion Pinochle player would play. The same is true for dozens of online games, including MMOs (and DDO is really just a first person shooter). It has been done to death.

    You are correct in your assumption, however, that the developers are probably as naive and inexperienced as you are about game design. They probably got their job because they showed massive enthusiasm for the type of game. Unfortunately, in this particular sector, that usually means metagamer and a severely skewed sense of game balance.
    Please tell us about the MMORPG you have designed. Perhaps it is good enough to steal us away from DDO. :@
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  7. #27
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Please tell us about the MMORPG you have designed. Perhaps it is good enough to steal us away from DDO. :@
    Everyone wants to make this about my own personal failings and issues. For this particular thread, I'm merely being an advocate for my observations about other people and the motives that I perceive.

    In regards to your specific troll attempt, many other MMOs have achieved much greater success than this one, especially in the area of balance. Others have been even worse, and they are likewise experiencing difficulties maintaining a sizable playerbase. MMOs are really the only genre where acceptable balance seems to be incredibly difficult to achieve. You want to blame the misbalance on the nature of RPGs. The problem then becomes that people in this thread and designers like the ones working on DDO, do not treat the game as a role-playing game.

    DDO is really just a FPS. You could get rid of all the grind and the game would be more successful, not less. It has been done before, countless times.

  8. #28
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Everyone wants to make this about my own personal failings and issues. For this particular thread, I'm merely being an advocate for my observations about other people and the motives that I perceive.

    In regards to your specific troll attempt, many other MMOs have achieved much greater success than this one, especially in the area of balance. Others have been even worse, and they are likewise experiencing difficulties maintaining a sizable playerbase. MMOs are really the only genre where acceptable balance seems to be incredibly difficult to achieve. You want to blame the misbalance on the nature of RPGs. The problem then becomes that people in this thread and designers like the ones working on DDO, do not treat the game as a role-playing game.

    DDO is really just a FPS. You could get rid of all the grind and the game would be more successful, not less. It has been done before, countless times.
    You are presenting yourself as some type of expert on game design and programming. This is why I am asking about your experience. If I am to consider your statements as even remotely credible, I need to know whether you have a clue about what you are criticizing. If you are speaking from personal experience, please summarize that experience. If you are presenting opinions founded on the experience of others, cite your sources.

    Also, I am not troll; I am rogue.
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  9. #29
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    You are presenting yourself as some type of expert on game design and programming.
    No, I am not. I am trying to clearly delineate every concept through example. That is why when I say something like "characters designed for epic elite often serve no purpose in standard groups," I carry it forward with the example of "what you going to do with that magic missile now?"

    Using authority as a basis for logical discussion is what is known as a fallacy. All my statements are based on the experience of playing this game and other MMOs. It is expected that you either have similar experience that you have interpreted differently, or your experience does not match. Either way, the way a discussion forum works is that you cite your difference of logical opinion, and do not ask others to present credentials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    This is why I am asking about your experience.
    My experience is observable underneath my forum handle. In addition to seven years of playing DDO, with as much as a 18 month lapse in playing, I have played Warhammer Online, Darkfall Online, Age of Conan, Rift, Guild Wars 2, and several others that have followed similar patterns. I have also been carefully watching the entire industry over the last seven years because quite frankly DDO took me completely by surprise in how poorly the actual game was designed (when how GOOD everything else was...).

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    My experience is observable underneath my forum handle. In addition to seven years of playing DDO, with as much as a 18 month lapse in playing, I have played Warhammer Online, Darkfall Online, Age of Conan, Rift, Guild Wars 2, and several others that have followed similar patterns. I have also been carefully watching the entire industry over the last seven years because quite frankly DDO took me completely by surprise in how poorly the actual game was designed (when how GOOD everything else was...).
    Well DDO did start out with the handicap of having to try to stick close to the design of a table top RPG and not a very well balanced one at that. But even that doesn't explain the make it up as you go planning philosophy Turbine seems to take with DDO. It's hard to maintain any sort of balance when the benchmarks simply don't exist.

  11. #31
    Community Member Tscheuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Balance is a mandatory condition for thousands of games developed in hundreds to thousands of genres. Just off the top of my head, the first time you play Pinochle is pretty much the same game that a world champion Pinochle player would play. The same is true for dozens of online games, including MMOs (and DDO is really just a first person shooter). It has been done to death.

    You are correct in your assumption, however, that the developers are probably as naive and inexperienced as you are about game design. They probably got their job because they showed massive enthusiasm for the type of game. Unfortunately, in this particular sector, that usually means metagamer and a severely skewed sense of game balance.
    Ad hominem attacks are also a fallacy. Do you even know any of these people, or are you merely engaging in libel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    No, I am not. I am trying to clearly delineate every concept through example. That is why when I say something like "characters designed for epic elite often serve no purpose in standard groups," I carry it forward with the example of "what you going to do with that magic missile now?"

    Using authority as a basis for logical discussion is what is known as a fallacy. All my statements are based on the experience of playing this game and other MMOs. It is expected that you either have similar experience that you have interpreted differently, or your experience does not match. Either way, the way a discussion forum works is that you cite your difference of logical opinion, and do not ask others to present credentials.

    For a logical argument to be valid, the premise(s) must be true, and the form such that the conclusion must be true if the premise(s) is true.

    My experience is observable underneath my forum handle. In addition to seven years of playing DDO, with as much as a 18 month lapse in playing, I have played Warhammer Online, Darkfall Online, Age of Conan, Rift, Guild Wars 2, and several others that have followed similar patterns. I have also been carefully watching the entire industry over the last seven years because quite frankly DDO took me completely by surprise in how poorly the actual game was designed (when how GOOD everything else was...).
    I thank you for your honesty. I will consider your opinion with respect to the experience behind it.
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 07-01-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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