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  1. #1
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Default Bladestorms and Epic Elite, and Why People Don't Care About Parts of Your Game...

    Let's talk about bladestorms, and why they were a very unpopular change:

    1) Bladestorms are pure environment, they cannot be mitigated other than simply going nowhere near them, as in not running the raid at all.

    2) On normal they do around 25-30 damage, or about 5-8% of the hit point pool of an appropriate level of character. This means they are merely a nuisance, a drain on healing ability and time.

    3) On elite they do around 90-100 damage, or about 12-20% of the hit point pool of an appropriate level of character. This makes them a random probability of death based on lag, which is more likely to affect those who are unable to move quickly (i.e. those in the middle of casting healing spells).

    4) The 90-100 damage on elite also prevents forms of healing that require concentration checks, and the game mechanics will also put those abilities on cooldown even though they had no effect.

    5) The bladestorms on elite are the actual threat. The big red devil in the middle is just a distraction from the real enemy. If I were Arraetrikos, I'd just summon a couple score of bladestorms for players to (not) fight, then go somewhere else or hide in the ceiling.

    Elite Shroud and normal Shroud are entirely different games. You would actually build entirely different characters based on which game you intended to play. Which brings up the topic of epic elite: the same thing is true. Shiradi casters can do very well in epic elite because the ultimate goal is efficient damage due to the nature of the environment. Other types of casters do far, far better playing epic hard.

    If anyone on the development team is wondering why people don't care about parts of your game, and might stick to seemingly bland, boring cycles - it's because you've made disparate sections. You could have just built and maintained three entirely different online games with separate development cycles and it probably would have been more attractive, more cost-efficient, and less work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Elite Shroud and normal Shroud are entirely different games. You would actually build entirely different characters based on which game you intended to play. Which brings up the topic of epic elite: the same thing is true. Shiradi casters can do very well in epic elite because the ultimate goal is efficient damage due to the nature of the environment. Other types of casters do far, far better playing epic hard.
    Which is exactly how it should be... "an entirely different game for everyone". Not pigeonholing everyone into the same difficulty and the same builds is exactly how a good game should be designed. Epic Elite should be made harder though, as to add a "different game" for those of us who have outgrown the current version.

  3. #3
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Which is exactly how it should be... "an entirely different game for everyone". Not pigeonholing everyone into the same difficulty and the same builds is exactly how a good game should be designed.
    The problem that the developers might see with this (like you, it's fine with me as long as I don't get confused about which parts of the game I should avoid) is that the work to maintain three entirely different games is about three times as much as to maintain one game. When they are all placed on top of each other, that extra work is magnified because you then have to deal with interactions between the different game mechanics.

    DDO never really needed three (or five) different games. One would have worked well enough, with proper balance. Without balance, it's only a subset of characters that are the best at all of them.
    Last edited by Raithe; 06-29-2013 at 09:52 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Which is exactly how it should be... "an entirely different game for everyone". Not pigeonholing everyone into the same difficulty and the same builds is exactly how a good game should be designed. Epic Elite should be made harder though, as to add a "different game" for those of us who have outgrown the current version.
    Yeah, but if you have outgrown the normal/hard epic content by playing the Shiradi Sorc only, this says it all about the state of affairs in DDO. There is one class and one class alone for running EE raid content, throw in the occasional FaV or Druid (Shiradi recommended ^^) for healbot and here we go.

    Ok, I can understand that not every undergeared flavor-build has the right to prevail in EE, especially w/o maxed out EDs, but why on Gods Earth are there only a few of the ED builds possible to run EE content on the easy button and all others are left out? Playing Magister, Draconic? Playing Avenger, playing Angel? What for? I cannot even prevail in the most basic scenarios of EE on the GH raid, except as a healer. Shiradi Sorc? No problem, boys, the cannon will kill...

    That´s simple bad scaling and bad balancing in the EDs, nothing else. They near-to nerfed everything else into oblivion by either cooldown, nerfing damage or both, now only Shiradi left? The solution countrary to Turbine oppinion would not be nerfing the Shiradi as well. NO! The solution would be to make other EDs play-worth.

  5. #5
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    The problem isn't shiradi, fury of the wild, or legendary dreadnought masters blitz, the problem is other EDs being weak and/or having weak epic moments.


    Fate singer epic moment not working on bosses, exalted angel ridiculous cooldown, draconic incarnation epic moment basically doing nothing, shadow dancer epic moment not even worth the points. The list goes on.


    I like the game and the Devs,but the sad thing is once they. Finish something and fix the initial bugs, they almost never look back on revisions. I hope this changes some day.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Yeah, but if you have outgrown the normal/hard epic content by playing the Shiradi Sorc only, this says it all about the state of affairs in DDO. There is one class and one class alone for running EE raid content, throw in the occasional FaV or Druid (Shiradi recommended ^^) for healbot and here we go.

    Ok, I can understand that not every undergeared flavor-build has the right to prevail in EE, especially w/o maxed out EDs, but why on Gods Earth are there only a few of the ED builds possible to run EE content on the easy button and all others are left out? Playing Magister, Draconic? Playing Avenger, playing Angel? What for? I cannot even prevail in the most basic scenarios of EE on the GH raid, except as a healer. Shiradi Sorc? No problem, boys, the cannon will kill...

    That´s simple bad scaling and bad balancing in the EDs, nothing else. They near-to nerfed everything else into oblivion by either cooldown, nerfing damage or both, now only Shiradi left? The solution countrary to Turbine oppinion would not be nerfing the Shiradi as well. NO! The solution would be to make other EDs play-worth.
    All the other EDs are totally viable for EEs, they just take WAAAAAY more effort, gear, past lives, etc. than just sitting in shiradi and spamming does.

    My human sorcerer does fine in epic elites running in draconic (although for soloing EEs DI is way less usable, but is still entirely possible I would just need to put a but more work into it.)
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  7. #7
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    ... Shiradi casters can do very well in epic elite because the ultimate goal is efficient damage due to the nature of the environment. Other types of casters do far, far better playing epic hard. ...
    Everyone is telling me that I should switch to Shiradi (I have maxed out all EDs, including Shiradi), but I prefer Magister, even for EE (I just like to finger them). Rednamed are easy: dots + Boulder Toss

    With my first lifer Wiz Magister I soloed EE Trial by Fire.

    Later with the same Magister I soloed EE Servants of Overlord with ALL optionals (including Drow ritual - had to take advantage of insta-lever pull while I could ).

    Also soloed more EE: von1, LoD, etc., but those are easy (didn't bother to take a screenshot).

    Of course I won't beat Shiradi Sorc, just saying that even first lifer Magister can do EE.
    And all of that was done with broken Wail ...

  8. #8
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Yeah, but if you have outgrown the normal/hard epic content by playing the Shiradi Sorc only, this says it all about the state of affairs in DDO. There is one class and one class alone for running EE raid content, throw in the occasional FaV or Druid (Shiradi recommended ^^) for healbot and here we go.

    Ok, I can understand that not every undergeared flavor-build has the right to prevail in EE, especially w/o maxed out EDs, but why on Gods Earth are there only a few of the ED builds possible to run EE content on the easy button and all others are left out? Playing Magister, Draconic? Playing Avenger, playing Angel? What for? I cannot even prevail in the most basic scenarios of EE on the GH raid, except as a healer. Shiradi Sorc? No problem, boys, the cannon will kill...

    That´s simple bad scaling and bad balancing in the EDs, nothing else. They near-to nerfed everything else into oblivion by either cooldown, nerfing damage or both, now only Shiradi left? The solution countrary to Turbine oppinion would not be nerfing the Shiradi as well. NO! The solution would be to make other EDs play-worth.
    Part in bold fully describes the problem for me. If it can be solo'd, or done on any sort of "easy button" then it is neither Epic nor Elite, and it is most certainly not Epic Elite.

    Yes, I do know that there are some serious issues of lack-lusterness with some (most?) of the destinies. I have less issues with the inter-character balance thing, because imbalance there is a natural byproduct of having broad customizational abilities.

    But any time (what is supposed to be) the most difficult content can be "easy buttoned" there's been a break down somewhere.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-30-2013 at 01:29 AM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Part in bold fully describes the problem for me. If it can be solo'd, or done on any sort of "easy button" then it is neither Epic nor Elite, and it is most certainly not Epic Elite.
    But any time (what is supposed to be) the most difficult content can be "easy buttoned" there's been a break down somewhere.

    My problem with this entire discussion has always been that the opposition on these forums to Shiradi Casters, Anyone using PewPew+FOTW, or Blitzing in LD, is that they are obviously super OP because people use them to Solo EE's. A lot of these same people will also talk about how before ED's came out old epics were actually hard, and now they aren't; epic Elite included.

    But I just don't see it that way. Everyone isn't soloing epic elites with these types of builds. Are a certain percentage of endgame focused players doing it? Sure. These are the same players that solo'd the old epics before ED's. These are the same people that were soloing raids before ED's. These are the same players that have always, and will always crush any content turbine put out because they are simply good at this game. ED's and Epic Elites play a very small part in the process. It's just the stage and the tools people are using now.

    There is no Easy button for this game, there are only good tactics, good players, and game knowledge.
    Good players can apply this in any situation and come out ahead.

    Case in point:
    Had a pug EEPoP last night, I opened it to level 20-25 and started clearing while waiting for it to filled. I had 4 first life level 20's join me, and 1 lvl 23 first life jugg who only had about half of FOTW leveled up. In light of this, knowing it wouldn't be the usual channel filled cakewalk, we took things slow, with me getting most of the agro and tanking(for lack of a better term) since I had the most damage mitigation of the group, as well as self healing(we didn't have a real healer. Just a bard.) We only had 3 or 4 deaths all in all, which by my count isn't that bad for any EE run; We completed in just about 20 minutes.

    Now compare that to normal channel/guild runs? Sure it would have been smoother, quicker, and less resource intensive, and we probably wouldn't have had any deaths, unless it was my own from lag. But would it be because we had max destinies and the best gear? Or would it be because most of the group would know what they were doing before hand and would be prepared for it?

    Player skill trumps everything in this game, and people asking for a nerf to certain ED's or an increase in EE difficulties because a small percentage of the playerbase are just really talented at the game are quite frankly delusional.

    Not every Shiradi Caster, FOTW Jugg, or Blitzing Palli/Fighter you see out there is capable of soloing EE's, or even running them. I think a large portion of the people on these forums forget that the vast majority of DDO players aren't as uber as the what, 10% here on the forums...
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  10. #10
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Snip
    The problem is: those people that are using Shiradi or FotW Monkchers are not soloing EEs, sure. But their build is allowing them to do things that they are not capable of.

    What do I mean with this? I see a lot of them running with these builds that have no idea what positioning is, how to manage clickies, when to do something and when just stop, when to use a certain ability, when to shrine. A good and skilled player always carry his build in the party. Here is happening the other way around: those are skill-less players that are carried by these builds.

    When I see a shiradi caster just standing toe-to-toe with an Epic Elite pack of mobs, knowing that his nerve venom will proc in the next 1-2 hits of non-sense spamming, I cry a little inside.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    (...)
    Not every Shiradi Caster, FOTW Jugg, or Blitzing Palli/Fighter you see out there is capable of soloing EE's, or even running them. I think a large portion of the people on these forums forget that the vast majority of DDO players aren't as uber as the what, 10% here on the forums...
    You are perfectly right, not every Shiradi Caster, FOTW or blitzing Pal is capable of soloing EE. But how many other ED builds do you see out there that can do? The problem lies not within the fact that only a handful of players can master soloing EE content. The problem lies with the fact that only a handful EDs can be used to solo EE quests or raids because they are uber. All the other EDs do not carry any player through the soloing EE, and most would not do this in groups.

    If I want to survive EE I am bound to not use certain EDs (what for are they, then, exactly?) and to stick to certain other EDs, if I want to be a contributing member of my group and not only stand around pikeing.

    Well, I did low level EE content with halfbaked EDs and it is working - for Eveningstar quests and The Snitch. And then? Even with CitW on EE any half baked ED is no good and if you have the wrong one (Exalted Angel on a Pal, just to name an example) even the fully leveled ED is senseless.

    Again, what are fully leveled EDs any good for if I cannot even run CitW as a contributing member (except perhaps healbot) on EE???

  12. #12
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    You are perfectly right, not every Shiradi Caster, FOTW or blitzing Pal is capable of soloing EE. But how many other ED builds do you see out there that can do? The problem lies not within the fact that only a handful of players can master soloing EE content. The problem lies with the fact that only a handful EDs can be used to solo EE quests or raids because they are uber. All the other EDs do not carry any player through the soloing EE, and most would not do this in groups.

    If I want to survive EE I am bound to not use certain EDs (what for are they, then, exactly?) and to stick to certain other EDs, if I want to be a contributing member of my group and not only stand around pikeing.

    Well, I did low level EE content with halfbaked EDs and it is working - for Eveningstar quests and The Snitch. And then? Even with CitW on EE any half baked ED is no good and if you have the wrong one (Exalted Angel on a Pal, just to name an example) even the fully leveled ED is senseless.

    Again, what are fully leveled EDs any good for if I cannot even run CitW as a contributing member (except perhaps healbot) on EE???
    I agree, and I have never disputed this fact. From day one when ED's first came out I looked through the trees of all the ED's and only 5 out of the 11 even looked appealing.

    But my problem is the way the forum handles this; I do not see very many threads that are about how to fix the weak and/or broken ED's to raise their effectiveness. Most of what I see is multiple threads calling for nerfs, whining about how those 3-5 destinies are OP compared to the rest, and somewhere in the thread you get what we've seen here: a few posters say "Well, they need to bring the others to the good destinies level, not nerf the good ones".

    And that's it. No discussion on how to do this. No suggestions, or very few.
    And what does this accomplish? Nothing. Nothing at all.

    It just seems as though the problem is over here with big flashing lights and music, and a sign that says "HEY LOOK HERE!", and the majority of the forum is looking the opposite way, purposely ignoring the obvious.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    And that's it. No discussion on how to do this. No suggestions, or very few.
    And what does this accomplish? Nothing. Nothing at all.
    That is because it is not player's job to come up with solutions to the game problems. The systems are (supposedly) being designed by professional game designers. They should be able to design systems that are not failures, and players are reacting entirely reasonably by pointing out where the systems fail.

  14. #14
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Let's talk about bladestorms, and why they were a very unpopular change:

    1) Bladestorms are pure environment, they cannot be mitigated other than simply going nowhere near them, as in not running the raid at all.

    2) On normal they do around 25-30 damage, or about 5-8% of the hit point pool of an appropriate level of character. This means they are merely a nuisance, a drain on healing ability and time.

    3) On elite they do around 90-100 damage, or about 12-20% of the hit point pool of an appropriate level of character. This makes them a random probability of death based on lag, which is more likely to affect those who are unable to move quickly (i.e. those in the middle of casting healing spells).

    4) The 90-100 damage on elite also prevents forms of healing that require concentration checks, and the game mechanics will also put those abilities on cooldown even though they had no effect.

    5) The bladestorms on elite are the actual threat. The big red devil in the middle is just a distraction from the real enemy. If I were Arraetrikos, I'd just summon a couple score of bladestorms for players to (not) fight, then go somewhere else or hide in the ceiling.

    Elite Shroud and normal Shroud are entirely different games. You would actually build entirely different characters based on which game you intended to play. Which brings up the topic of epic elite: the same thing is true. Shiradi casters can do very well in epic elite because the ultimate goal is efficient damage due to the nature of the environment. Other types of casters do far, far better playing epic hard.

    If anyone on the development team is wondering why people don't care about parts of your game, and might stick to seemingly bland, boring cycles - it's because you've made disparate sections. You could have just built and maintained three entirely different online games with separate development cycles and it probably would have been more attractive, more cost-efficient, and less work.
    people build those flavor of the month builds because they are self sufficient and have a lot of power. when was the last time you saw one of these builds not have self sufficiency built into them? many of those builds are a combination of 2-3 classes and top end gear is figured into them. its no different than anyone else trying to build for max power on any pure class or simple 18/2.

    I have never been a fan of cookie cutters. I am impressed by how they can survive and how much damage they can do, but I can do the same thing on a pure. it still takes a lot of skill to make the build work as its supposed to and gear is needed just as much as any other build. ive always built my characters with the intention of building for EE. the difference between those flavor builds and my simple or pure builds is that I never feel nerfed and feel like I need to TR into a different flavor build working for more gear. theres a reason why they are called "flavor of the month". they can still be useful and good builds, but there will always be something better and newer that comes along eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    The problem is: those people that are using Shiradi or FotW Monkchers are not soloing EEs, sure. But their build is allowing them to do things that they are not capable of.
    Does ..not ..compute.
    What else in this game other than solo/shortman EE would such toons be for ?
    Because 1- 20 become routine and autopilot by the time you TR a few times and EH is not even worth mentioning.

    You really think anybody with jugg, monkcher just autocomplete EE by stepping into quest with strong build ?

  16. #16
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    That is because it is not player's job to come up with solutions to the game problems. The systems are (supposedly) being designed by professional game designers. They should be able to design systems that are not failures, and players are reacting entirely reasonably by pointing out where the systems fail.
    While I agree with this to some extent, I also find it incredibly ironic.
    If we're going to leave everything up to the devs, and just deal with what they give us, Because it's not our job to come up with a solution to the problem, then we should never call for nerfs, bug fixes, or ever ask that any class/ED that is really lacking in todays game get an improvement. But yet I see that on this forum ALL THE TIME.
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    Community Member Maxallu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Which brings up the topic of epic elite: the same thing is true. Shiradi casters can do very well in epic elite because the ultimate goal is efficient damage due to the nature of the environment. Other types of casters do far, far better playing epic hard.
    Everyone does well on EH. Eh is a joke. EE is a joke for the most part too. My toon constantly runs EEs and nope, he's not a shiradi sorc. If anything, this game needs to be made more challenging.

    Nice to see that some people are still scared of EEs though.
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    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxallu View Post
    Everyone does well on EH. Eh is a joke. EE is a joke for the most part too. My toon constantly runs EEs and nope, he's not a shiradi sorc. If anything, this game needs to be made more challenging.

    Nice to see that some people are still scared of EEs though.
    and he shrouds apparently. oooh blades, don't stand in them and they do zero damage.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxallu View Post
    Everyone does well on EH.
    My rogue disagree.
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  20. #20
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Does ..not ..compute.
    What else in this game other than solo/shortman EE would such toons be for ?
    Because 1- 20 become routine and autopilot by the time you TR a few times and EH is not even worth mentioning.

    You really think anybody with jugg, monkcher just autocomplete EE by stepping into quest with strong build ?
    Pretty much. As I said, they are not capable to solo EE just because of their build, but they wouldn't even be able to kill the first pack of mobs without these builds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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