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  1. #61
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    Nice post Ungood. I concur. Now I want cavaliers in the game.....

  2. #62
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    horc hooker..................

  3. #63
    Community Member Veriden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    horc hooker..................
    I'd buy that for a copper....and send it to service my enemies...so I can use stealth to sneak into their camp, loot, and leave.


    Seriously though, I think our character's past lives would be cool iconic heroes.
    The ability to scroll through previous lives and live them again with out all the grinding would be nice lol


    That aside, I would rather see templates added to races rather than more iconic heroes.

    Half celestial, half dragon, half fiend, the fae blood, etc use the same rules as iconics only they start at level 15- level adjustments

    Half fiend elf? Yes please. Even if I had to farm cov's and go to level 28 (30) before starting a new life.
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  4. #64
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Iconic is kinda cool concept to tell the truth.

    Reflecting back on it now tho, as I see it, I think it would be better to focus on making an "Iconic" for each class in the game, starting with the F2P classes.

    For example: They have Iconic for

    • Paladin (Warforged)
    • Rogue (Human)
    • Cleric (Elf)
    • Fighter (Human)


    This means the next step would Iconic for:

    • Wizard
    • Sorcerer
    • Barbarian
    • Bard
    • Ranger


    With the idea that Paid Classes would need to be another series of things, as the Iconic would need to include the class itself, as buying the Iconic without the class to make it happen, would really suck. So paid classes would be:
    • Favored Soul
    • Artificer
    • Monk
    • Druid


    Now. As I see it, with my suggestion before and with the want for "Mixed" or "Template" style races, like Planetouched and the like, and I guess the gears in my mind started to roll in that direction to figure out how to make that work and have some fun with it at the same time.

    Case in point:
    Plane Touched:

    • Gensai: These are Human mixed with Elemental Beings, IE: Earth, Air, Fire, Water.

    These would go perfectly with the Monk or Sorcerer class, given that both of them play off the elements, however, given the existing elemental forms of the Sorcerer class, the Gensai, would blend with the Sorcerer the best, with enhancements and augments based and directed at the various elemental forums open to the Sorcerer.

    • Standard Price Iconic Hero: 1295 - 1495 TP.


    • Tiefling: Humanoid & Evil Plane creature, (Demon, Devil, etc) offspring. Has distinctive features of their parentage: Alignment Restriction: Any Non-Good.

    Ok first off, making these guys wizards would be too easy. They already start with this whole evil aura/bad guy theme to them, so combining them with abilities linked to the Pale Master Wizard Tree is not just a good fit, but a coming into the light kind of moment, where they just blend ideally into the DDO universe.

    • Standard Price Iconic Hero: 1295 - 1495 would fit them.

    ?

    • ?Aasimar: Humanoid and Good Plane creatures (Archons, Angels, Divas) offspriing has distinstive featires of their parentage. Alignment Restriction: Any Good.

    ?The main problem with the Aasimar is that they don't fit well into the free classes, but, given their story and the lore surrounding them, they would make ideal Favored Souls. With gifts and powers directed towards their godly favors, perhaps even additional "favored soul feats" open to them, as well as special gods/goddess with unique exotic weapon choices (IE: This would be the perfect time to put in a Khopesh or Bastard sword focused favored soul)

    • Stand alone price: 1295 TP (requires Favored soul), Pack price: 1795 (Includes Favored Soul)


    Ok now, I just need a Barbarian, a Bard, and a Ranger, to flesh out the rest of the F2P iconic hero's. I'll get back to that after I look some stuff up and play around a bit.

  5. #65
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I dismiss the fact they get "Barbarian Rage", because, they Don't. In fact, if you had done any research you would have known that the ranger had a rage was more a barbarian rage then the Battleragers had.

    At this point, it's pretty clear you have no idea what you are even talking about, or even have a clue what a Battlerager is, or where they came from. It sounds like your reading from some wiki and maybe some homebrew.

    For your info, Battleragers were brought about by R A Salvatore, and first Appeared in "The Legacy" of the Icewind Dale series of books, in 1992. That is the cannon of anything resembling what a Battlerager would be.

    Now, in 1992, that should have been right about when you were first breaking the seems of your DnD books, so you might even know the rule set back then, it was just before 2nd edition hit. But I am going to guess you cut your teeth on 2nd edition, which is why, I look at what you are thinking and shake my head and sigh, because I was playing DnD a Decade before you.

    First off, Pwent, was created with the 1st Edition Rules, so we would only be looking at the 1st edition classes, Much in this vein someone like Jarlaxle, would be a bard, as opposed to a Swashbuckler or Dashing Swordsman, and Drizzit would be a Pure Ranger, regardless of the fact that he had no animal companion, did not cast spells, and could enter a berserk rage, not to mention he had a bond with the scimitar, and barely ever used a bow, he was still a ranger. Same way as Belkar is a ranger, even tho he can't cast spells and comes across as more a thief then anything else.

    Much to those rules, and those class limitations, DDO also falls.

    Now lets look at Pwent:

    He wears Plate armor, and not just any old plate armor, his armor was custom, it was in fact top of the line armor, made exclusive for him. (This alone should have removed him from being some savage barbarian)

    It's blades were razor sharp, which means he kept his armor in top shape all the time.

    He was from a noble line of other Battleragers, mentioning his forebear Crommwar Pwent, being the loyal and noble companion of the First King of Mitheral Hall. (This too is not a barbarian thing)

    When he returns to Mitheral Hall, He is accepted, and given complete hospitality due his station as a battlerager. Ok. This is a big one. He is recognized and both respected and somewhat feared as a Battlerager, and he is not just a battlerager, he is THE battlerager, the first warrior of Mitheral Hall. No one, not even King Battlehammer himself disputes or challenges this claim.

    At this point, whatever this Battlerager is, it is not some barbarian, or some fighter, a Battlerager is something more, it is an elevated position, put on a higher tier then just anyone else that may have come in. He was a "Battlerager" and this meant that he was something and someone important.

    Ok. Well, he's not Sir Galahad, and he makes it very clear, that he is Not Some Knight in Shining Armor, he is a battlerager, he plays to win and win he will do.

    However, this is where your Homebrew or whatever you looked up, is wrong, Pwent is Cannon, as such signature things about him must be the template for a Battlerager, and Pwent was lawful. He returned to Mitheral Hall, when he heard that a Battlehammer was sitting on the throne again. He gave up a lavish life as a Mercenary, making quite a good deal of money and living in riches, to return to the Hall to serve his King.

    Secondly, he does not 'Lose his mind' when he charges. He fought Drizzit, and even during his encounters with other drow, he spoke, kept his wits about him, and sized up situations fully and coherently, to the point that he paused and even had a discussion with Drizzit as the two of them fought. So much for your Barbarian Rage theory.

    This brings up another point about Pwent, he Charges, he does not Rage. He thirsts for battle, for the fight, it is in his conditioning and a part of what he is, is not some "state" he goes into, it is what he is. And that Horn, spike on his head, is another signature part of what makes a battlerager a battlerager, at least in regards to Pwent, The Battlerager, and First Warrior of Mitheral Hall.

    Ok, so, if you have been playing for 20 years, what DnD Class, Charges into the Fray, Fearlessly, will not stop till all opponents are dead, wears heavy plate, serves a king, god, noble or cause, yet, has no spell abilities.

    The answer to that is NOT a Barbarian.

    The answer is the Cavalier.

    The Cavalier cannot be controlled in Combat, and will fearlessly Charge and Kill all opponents, in a set order, disregarding their own allies, and enemies while doing so. This describes a Battlerager perfectly.

    A cavalier is of noble bloodline or a pretentious bloodline, which Describes Pwent perfectly.

    They wear Heavy plate, which is both functional and ornate, again, this describes a Battleragers armor exactly.

    They are the masters of Charge combat. Bingo.

    A Cavalier serves a God, Noble, or Ideal. and Pwent served at least two out of Three.

    A cavalier is sponsored by someone else, in this case, Pwent was The Battlerager OF Mitheral Hall.

    When entering into a land owned by their sponsor, they are given full hospitality. Dreaded, and as revolting as he was, Pwent was welcomed back to the hold and given full hospitality of his station.

    Unfortunate, the Cavalier does not exist in DDO, and Given in 1st edition rules, The Paladin was a Subclass of the Cavalier, that means, the Cavalier would be a Paladin in the DDO game system.

    Now, while wiki's are nice, and homebrew is great, anything other then the Cannon (IE: The R A Salvatore Books) don't cut it. Sorry, but whatever your source is, it's wrong.

    When you can cite the books to prove they are a Barb I'll listen, till then, don't bother yourself.

    They are as written by R A Salvatore, what a Paladin would be in the DDO world.
    Pwent was created on second edition rules, before second edition was made public. The authors had access to the source material more than two years before it went public. You can se the notible changes happening in much of the fiction even before the actual second edition was released. Time of troubles was the major event between editions and fiction books existed describing those changes before 2e was made public.

    Battle rager was a kit, and kits do not hinge on class specifically. You just had to meet specific stat/feat/skill requirements in order to be able to be a kit character. Just like a fighter or a thief could be a swashbuckler, different warrior classes could be battlerager. http://home.online.no/~rahag/AD&D/Book_of_Dwarves.pdf

    Note there are no class or alignment requirements. Must have str of 15 or more, and int/wis of 10 or less (LOL). The rage is called "battlerage" or "deathrage" and has its own pros and cons separate from barbarian rage.

    They were not written by salvatore, they were created by Jim Bambra. Salvatore was told he had to use the rules as written for authoring his fiction, and they even went as far as to make him stop calling Entreri an "assassin" because that class was removed from core in 2e until the kit books came along and reintroduced it. Salvatore retaliated by saying hes not an assassin by game terms, hes an assassin because hes a rogue who gets paid to kill by the bassadoni clan. In the generic kit their drink is called "gutshaker" - salvatore changed that to the name of the gutbuster clan itself.

    Pwent is basically considered Royalty among the gutbusters and has a family line stretching back as far as the battlehammers themselves, and they have always been loyal. The Legacy is the first book pwent appears in - released in 1992. AD&D 2e came out in 1989. Complete Book of Dwarves was released in 1991.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-06-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #66
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    Sunelf changed to Wizard.

    Aasimar Cleric.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Pwent was created on second edition rules, before second edition was made public. The authors had access to the source material more than two years before it went public. You can se the notible changes happening in much of the fiction even before the actual second edition was released. Time of troubles was the major event between editions and fiction books existed describing those changes before 2e was made public.

    Battle rager was a kit, and kits do not hinge on class specifically. You just had to meet specific stat/feat/skill requirements in order to be able to be a kit character. Just like a fighter or a thief could be a swashbuckler, different warrior classes could be battlerager. http://home.online.no/~rahag/AD&D/Book_of_Dwarves.pdf

    Note there are no class or alignment requirements. Must have str of 15 or more, and int/wis of 10 or less (LOL). The rage is called "battlerage" or "deathrage" and has its own pros and cons separate from barbarian rage.

    They were not written by salvatore, they were created by Jim Bambra. Salvatore was told he had to use the rules as written for authoring his fiction, and they even went as far as to make him stop calling Entreri an "assassin" because that class was removed from core in 2e until the kit books came along and reintroduced it. Salvatore retaliated by saying hes not an assassin by game terms, hes an assassin because hes a rogue who gets paid to kill by the bassadoni clan. In the generic kit their drink is called "gutshaker" - salvatore changed that to the name of the gutbuster clan itself.

    Pwent is basically considered Royalty among the gutbusters and has a family line stretching back as far as the battlehammers themselves, and they have always been loyal. The Legacy is the first book pwent appears in - released in 1992. AD&D 2e came out in 1989. Complete Book of Dwarves was released in 1991.

    an interesting read to be sure, but i literally JUST re-read all those books, and neither Thibbledorf NOR Crommorwer were like that in some of the "key features" mentioned. one way or another tho.. he's not chaotic, and he's NOT a barbarian.

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  8. #68
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    an interesting read to be sure, but i literally JUST re-read all those books, and neither Thibbledorf NOR Crommorwer were like that in some of the "key features" mentioned. one way or another tho.. he's not chaotic, and he's NOT a barbarian.
    I dont think he particularly was.. Hes a second edition kit, and any class can meet the criteria, as well as any alignment for that kit, so theres no restriction. A paladin could be a battlerager, just as a barbarian could. That paladin would have fun trying to cast spells with a wis of 10 or less...but he could still meet the requirement and become the kit.

    I also dont think alignments are set in stone ways for acting. Drizzt is chaotic, and he is just as loyal to his friends as pwent is to clan. Pwent is basically folowing tradition and honor, protecting his king and doing anything that would benefit the clan over anything else. Even a chaotic dwarven barbarian would have those strong ties. Its his behavior when hes not in battle that makes me believe he wouldnt fit the traditional description of chaotic. He prob more lawful neutral.

  9. #69
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    We need Sturm Pyre the one-legged dwarf hero. Gotta help Gary sell those one-legged dwarf kits!

  10. #70
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I dont think he particularly was.. Hes a second edition kit, and any class can meet the criteria, as well as any alignment for that kit, so theres no restriction. A paladin could be a battlerager, just as a barbarian could. That paladin would have fun trying to cast spells with a wis of 10 or less...but he could still meet the requirement and become the kit.

    I also dont think alignments are set in stone ways for acting. Drizzt is chaotic, and he is just as loyal to his friends as pwent is to clan. Pwent is basically folowing tradition and honor, protecting his king and doing anything that would benefit the clan over anything else. Even a chaotic dwarven barbarian would have those strong ties. Its his behavior when hes not in battle that makes me believe he wouldnt fit the traditional description of chaotic. He prob more lawful neutral.
    LOL, I was just having a discussion with my wife about Drizzt's alignment, and it was hinged right around this point, talk about gamers being gamers.

    Anyway, there were some major points of disparity between Pwent and the Battlerager kit, and I would wager this was because I don't think the rules in fact existed when Pwent was being created.

    Case in point:

    Pwent never loses control over himself, he is never "raged" near to what, say Drizzt's "Hunter" state , was like. He can talk, reason, and even change targets mid fight based on threat level. Case in point, when Crommwar gets hit by a lighting bolt, he complains that he hates wizards, and then proceeds to impale and beat the life from the wizard, despite the fighters around him trying to taunt his attention.

    This would be more a case of what a Cavalier would do, with a priority list, which had placed Wizards above Melee, as opposed to the Battlerager kit that says any intimidate check works on them.

    This goes further, because the it talks about a battlerager always being "on the edge of rampaging berzerker, but in his introduction back to the Hall, he takes the brunt of a few jabs and jokes about how well he would fare in a fight against "Brunor's drow", and he just shrugs it off, and carries on, where in the Complete Dwarven handbook, it makes it sound as if a joke was sent his way, he would have flipped the table over and roared a challenge at her, regardless if she was Brunors daughter or not.

    Not to mention, that Pwent had no tattoo's, or facial markings of any kind that were visible, neither did Crommwar for that matter, both had full thick beards, and only shaved their heads for functionality, so their helmet would hold it's place.

    I would go further to remark that Pwent is polite about any decision his King makes, and for a Dwarf that just showed up and saw that his king adopted two humans (one from a tribe of people that want to kill the Dwarves) he is totally un-phased by this, even the fact that the Dwarf King has taken on a Drow friend does not bother Pwent.

    So, there seems to be some iffy parts of it, and from first look, he really hits home with what the 1st edition Cavalier puts out, which, maybe, R A Salvatore got a little less then the complete rules about them, and more a general idea that they were "Kinda like a Dwarven Cavalier, with the "Must Charge and Kill everything around them" type of mentality.

    Which that in my mind makes the most sense.

    But thanks for the Info, I have to say, you know your DnD.

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