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  1. #61
    Community Member Blackheartox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    I find it interesting you were spouting off about bards earlier when they can also take epic destinies where the DPS comes from, use cure critical instead of cure serious, and hit much larger heal scroll numbers. Those same comments apply. The amount of damage applied to a group, particularly a raid group, is still very significant and not something to casually dismiss.

    I would place them low on the list because they are too dependent on groups for a large portion of damage and their direct damage tends to be low, and immunities impact their spells and songs. Paladins are much less squishy in my experience, but are **** at CC, and there are times CC comes into play.
    Totaly correct (its just my experience speaking where i had trouble caping my bard life and theras the hate i got for that class, its still about the player).
    But dunno if a bard can mitigate damage as fast and good as palie due to prr, more saves, id say better selfheals as well because of lays.
    Things that make ee easy when soloing as melle hybrid imo, is preping blitz before fights and burst like manyshot to get first 2-3 stacks. Plenty of displace clickies, prr just in case and emergency selfheals.
    I dont think another melle can do that as efficient as palie and artie (juggs) without the sacrifice of geting a debuff from silver flame pots.
    Therefore placing paladins on top of the list, but to clarify, i farm ee gear with my buddy and his 4 boxes, so im speaking from a standpoint of 1-2 man ee questing with no babysitter or shiradi stun proc bot.
    With a babysitter of course a fury or blitz barb is one of best.
    But... Who wants to play a babysitter with all the sweet stuff you get from exalted

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moltier View Post
    Barbs are actually pretty good while leveling. At early levels, they are almost indestructible with DR boosts, uncanny dodges, sprint and higher dps (with cleaves ofc).
    Paladins are better ofc, but a barb can play like a secondary sorc. :P Gather mobs, hit uncanny+DR (+displace if you have), and cleave them to hell!
    I would rate fighters the lowest real melee as leveling character.
    Yeah, early level anything with a carnifex is good. Around lv12 barb does get great PRE benefits, a 3rd cleave, frenzy, and +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20. They start pulling way ahead from there.
    But I find that I like fighters more due to Trip, Sunder, and Stun. The combat tactics are life saving over just cleaves and rage and adds a dimension of versatility that most barbs dont have. Some things are such a pain to stand in front of or get surrounded by. Mostly why I value Monks so highly, Stunning Fist is so fun to watch in action. Best when they are just zerging from mob to mob, just stars and *Ding-*Ding-*Ding* sounds. Also, I forgot Artificer for heroic TR leveling rounds out my top classes list.

  3. #63
    Community Member Moltier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rubbinns View Post
    Yeah, early level anything with a carnifex is good. Around lv12 barb does get great PRE benefits, a 3rd cleave, frenzy, and +1 crit multiplier on rolls of 19-20. They start pulling way ahead from there.
    But I find that I like fighters more due to Trip, Sunder, and Stun. The combat tactics are life saving over just cleaves and rage and adds a dimension of versatility that most barbs dont have. Some things are such a pain to stand in front of or get surrounded by. Mostly why I value Monks so highly, Stunning Fist is so fun to watch in action. Best when they are just zerging from mob to mob, just stars and *Ding-*Ding-*Ding* sounds. Also, I forgot Artificer for heroic TR leveling rounds out my top classes list.
    Barbs have trip too, Sunder isnt important while leveling, and when it start to matter, they can pick up Stunning blow as well. They are life saver, yes, but barbs can have it as well.
    The mass killing with cleaves works even in GH elites and after, but some healing is required there.

    Btw frenzy comes at lvl6, but i dont use it untill very high levels. It is a self killing combo with cleaves for tiny extra damage. :P
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  4. #64
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    sounds like a build problem not a class problem. i played 3 lives of a pure human KOTC paladin. i hadn't had that much fun leveling a character in a long time. it convinced me that when i have time, my next character will be a paladin. i loved how versatile the build is with really good dps and survivability.
    I've played a KoTC as well. if you're calling a KoTC good DPS you don't know what good DPS is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    tanking is not needed most of the time, but tanking should be used more often. DOS and SD are supposed to be the better builds at drawing agro and absorbing damage, taking on the brunt of the fighting. you don't have to turtle up at every mob fight, but its not hard for those builds to make questing much smoother by getting mobs focused on them instead of trying to be #1 in kills.
    yes, and the best way to do that is to NOT be a paladin!

  5. #65
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    You can't be serious. A bad bard has more dps than a paladin? Just based off buffs the paladin has more dps than a bard. Then throw in PrE and class abilities.
    I'm exaggerating a little, sure the bard might be SLIGHTLY behind the paladin in DPS but at least the bard will be able haste/rage/blur/song people and add something more positive to a group than a paladin's lousy DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Takllin View Post
    Part of the reason paladins get so much hate is because they are a very attractive class for new players. You get a chance to play with someone who actually knows the ins n outs of it, and they are fun. I'm readin more of bad players than bad a bad class critiques.
    No, they are just a weak-sauce class. Seriously get your head out of the sand about this people, over-zealous class-advocates are terrible for said class. You need to look at stuff objectively before you can advocate for the changes a class needs to make it stronger.

  6. #66
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheartox View Post
    Totaly correct (its just my experience speaking where i had trouble caping my bard life and theras the hate i got for that class, its still about the player).
    But dunno if a bard can mitigate damage as fast and good as palie due to prr, more saves, id say better selfheals as well because of lays.
    Things that make ee easy when soloing as melle hybrid imo, is preping blitz before fights and burst like manyshot to get first 2-3 stacks. Plenty of displace clickies, prr just in case and emergency selfheals.
    I dont think another melle can do that as efficient as palie and artie (juggs) without the sacrifice of geting a debuff from silver flame pots.
    Therefore placing paladins on top of the list, but to clarify, i farm ee gear with my buddy and his 4 boxes, so im speaking from a standpoint of 1-2 man ee questing with no babysitter or shiradi stun proc bot.
    With a babysitter of course a fury or blitz barb is one of best.
    But... Who wants to play a babysitter with all the sweet stuff you get from exalted
    Dude . . . Otto's is the best damage mitigation in existence. What better than the mobs not being able to swing at you.

    And if you're only judging a Pally's DPS from a blitz standpoint . . . us "pally-haters" have already conceded it's good when it can blitz. ANYTHING's DPS is good when it can blitz and this gave me a glimmer of hope when playing a one a few weeks ago. But there are situations where you cannot blitz and their crappiness shines through.

    And I'm not saying this stuff because I hate paladins . . . I'm saying this because I think paladins should be made better.

  7. #67
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Here is the problem with this discussion and the reason it could be argued ad infinitum; you guys act like there is one way to build a bard or one way to build a pally..or one way to build..whatever.

    You get to choose. You can decide how much DPS you want to do or how survivable or how hard you heal...or you name it. Both the bard and pally are very pliable build platforms in and of themselves. With the ability to splash in other classes you give yourself even more options.

    So you guys can argue all day and everyone and no one will be right.

  8. #68
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    My first EE CITW, we had a Pally who gathered every mistress in a half circle in front them and took it while the rest of the group cleared the area then picked off the mistresses one by one. Minimal healing and 0 deaths (and a solo healed group).

    Another EE CITW with at least 1/2 FoTW builds, 2 healers, and almost no tactics except "shoot at something", we had a couple deaths, lots of healing, and certainly more chaos.

    Both were successful, but the first was an exercise in textbook tactics and ease of completion.

    Then again, it amazes me people still get kicked off the platform by Lolth's legs. Even now, when it's easier to see the ground crack a few seconds before they come up...

  9. #69
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    The question of which is best has always and will always depend on to many variables which only 1/2 deal with the character classes while the other deals with player style and goals.

    People like Teh_Troll always get a chuckle out of me with their statements about how bad different classes are compared to something else. I chuckle mainly because according to them I'm playing my character wrong. To each their own I guess.

  10. #70
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    People like Teh_Troll always get a chuckle out of me with their statements about how bad different classes are compared to something else. I chuckle mainly because according to them I'm playing my character wrong. To each their own I guess.
    Soon grasshopper you will learn the ways of the troll . . .

  11. #71
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    My first EE CITW, we had a Pally who gathered every mistress in a half circle in front them and took it while the rest of the group cleared the area then picked off the mistresses one by one. Minimal healing and 0 deaths (and a solo healed group).
    EE CiTW is a place where I found a good tank to be useful and I used to do the same thing on my evasion stalwart . . . intim all the mistesses and take the comets to the face while the party picked off the trash.

    How useful was that for the other 99% of the game?

  12. #72
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Soon grasshopper you will learn the ways of the troll . . .
    I have sat at the feet of masters beyond the skill you have displayed

    I'm going to go back to playing my character "Wrong" ... See you in game

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    EE CiTW is a place where I found a good tank to be useful and I used to do the same thing on my evasion stalwart . . . intim all the mistesses and take the comets to the face while the party picked off the trash.

    How useful was that for the other 99% of the game?
    If they're smart enough to make tanking trivial on the highest EE content, I believe they're probably smart enough to figure out how to contribute to other quests.

    For example, having a pally grab aggro is infinitely useful to my rogue. How else to coordinate mobs so nicely that I can get a triple assassinate?

    A lot of players are useful only because they have toons with DPS. But, when something goes haywire and the party needs a little more than DPS, like a smart tactic or two, don't look to them.

  14. #74
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    If they're smart enough to make tanking trivial on the highest EE content, I believe they're probably smart enough to figure out how to contribute to other quests.

    Wrong.

    Wrong.

    Wrong.

    If you're smart enough YOU'LL NEVER NEED A TANK IN EE.

    Seriously, in every instance (quests, they are useful in a few raids) where a tank could be useful there are better options.

  15. #75
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm exaggerating a little, sure the bard might be SLIGHTLY behind the paladin in DPS but at least the bard will be able haste/rage/blur/song people and add something more positive to a group than a paladin's lousy DPS.



    No, they are just a weak-sauce class. Seriously get your head out of the sand about this people, over-zealous class-advocates are terrible for said class. You need to look at stuff objectively before you can advocate for the changes a class needs to make it stronger.
    Slightly behind? That's still exaggerating. Play a pure paladin and a pure bard with the same gear, etc. and the paladin is far ahead of the bard. Sure it's still behind the fighter and barbarian, but it's not terrible.

    I never said they were an uber dps class, but your bashing a class that is not nearly as bad as you say it is. I completely agree they could use an upgrade, and the enhancement pass is horrible for paladins.

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