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Thread: Secret Doors!

  1. #61
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Exactly and now the clickies will be wasted bag space.
    Dunno but where do you read this in the OP? For me it reads more along the lines to have the intention that:
    - A low level clicky from the harbour shouldn't be able to reveal a high level secret door in epic content
    - A clicky on a high level item should reveal high level secret doors.

    What this essentially mean is that if you used till now a lvl 1 item, you may need to find a lvl 20 item with a clicky in epic content. But how much low level items you carry with you and how much epic items already come along with TS? Do you even care about most secret doors, especially those that are not along the main path?

    On the other hand ... please give us more bank and inventory space!
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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  2. #62
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    ... the Monster Manual is an item that needs to be purchased, so these things should be a priority over the Secret Door which can be revealed by none DDOStore means.
    Not saying that I wouldn't love to see fixes for the MM and other stuff, but ... the MM is free for VIP, and you can buy a secret door rod from store that reveal everything
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
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  3. #63
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    Dunno but where do you read this in the OP? For me it reads more along the lines to have the intention that:
    - A low level clicky from the harbour shouldn't be able to reveal a high level secret door in epic content
    - A clicky on a high level item should reveal high level secret doors.

    What this essentially mean is that if you used till now a lvl 1 item, you may need to find a lvl 20 item with a clicky in epic content. But how much low level items you carry with you and how much epic items already come along with TS? Do you even care about most secret doors, especially those that are not along the main path?

    On the other hand ... please give us more bank and inventory space!
    all secret door clickies are low level and ts if it's at 30 won't help with epic content either. Also you know that most secret doors will be just a few points above what an at level clicky could do even if they introduce them, there would be no point if that wasn't their end plan. The goal for them is to sell store items.

  4. #64
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    Dunno but where do you read this in the OP? For me it reads more along the lines to have the intention that:
    - A low level clicky from the harbour shouldn't be able to reveal a high level secret door in epic content
    - A clicky on a high level item should reveal high level secret doors.

    What this essentially mean is that if you used till now a lvl 1 item, you may need to find a lvl 20 item with a clicky in epic content. But how much low level items you carry with you and how much epic items already come along with TS? Do you even care about most secret doors, especially those that are not along the main path?

    On the other hand ... please give us more bank and inventory space!
    that's the way I read it too. clickies are pretty much only useful until 13 anyways. Tharnes is a better bag spot and can be worn to bypass blur whenever you want.

    unless this means sets that give TS bonus and items with TS are to be nerfed, which would totally devalue the items.

  5. #65
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    Posting to show support for the idea. Maybe with this change, rangers can show interest in actually investing in their Search skill, since thus far Search is useless unless you can disarm traps.

    Just please, don't do the same with Underwater Action items. Swimming already have many limitations (no attack, no casting, no clickies, speed based on swim skill) that eliminating the time factor is only a convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    Remember when the game was perfectly OK at Level 20?
    Never existed such time. Since '07, when I started, the game is always in the verge of doom for one reason or another.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    30 is around the Heroic/Epic line? Level 20...23 ranks and a +15 item, and say +2 from stat (probably a lot more, but suppose you dumped the stat to a starting 8, have a +6 item and nothing else), makes 40.
    Do the same math with 11 ranks, and you'll get 28. 30 is right over it.
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  7. #67
    The Hatchery SisAmethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    all secret door clickies are low level and ts if it's at 30 won't help with epic content either. Also you know that most secret doors will be just a few points above what an at level clicky could do even if they introduce them, there would be no point if that wasn't their end plan. The goal for them is to sell store items.
    While I agree that one point is most likely to sell store items, I don't believe that a level appropriate item shouldn't reveal doors. After all there is still the chance that no one in the party has a level appropriate item at hand. Also there aren't much quests that block progress through a secret door. Yes I know the Korthos Quest, but every character that dumped points in the search skill is already able to find that just fine without further help. If they really do as you say that an at level clicky will be few points below the DC of the secret doors the only thing that will happen is that no one bother anymore with certain quest or chest behind secret doors. That would be contra productive.

    As far as I understood they plan to adapt the clickies. Sure right now we only have - clicky is available or not. Then we will have like the Dowsing Rod and Greater Dowsing Rod clickies of different DC. As like the universal spellpower of the item depends on the enhancement modifier you may then maybe need to craft a +5 clicky that has a higher ML. So yes, we will need more items, and if you not have an item for the given level you either skip this, have a party member that is able to do or buy something in the store. I dunno how they will do it but I will not judge it before I haven't seen it.

    Heck finally a reason for a Wizard to memorize Detect Secret Doors.

    For example most players probably don't bother about the secret door in the underwater passage of Fathom the Depths as the chest doesn't reward the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    If turbine didn't want secret door detection to be possible they shouldn't have allowed it ingame in the first place. Better yet, they should not have made it possible to craft secret door detection goggles at lvl 1.
    Who say it shouldn't be possible to detect secret doors? If anything compares to this modification then it is like the modification of the jump skill. Long time ago jump wasn't capped at 40, thus one could jump over walls and directly go from start to finish. This wasn't intended, nor is it - as far as I understand the OP - intended that a level 1 item reveals epic secret doors.

    But only because every dog is an animal one can't reason out of this that every animal is a dog. Or that just because a level 1 item can't reveal high level secret doors one isn't able to reveal secret doors at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I do agree and fear that there is a chance that they mess up with everything, but if they do they only cut in their own skin, so I don't believe it is their intention.
    Last edited by SisAmethyst; 06-28-2013 at 06:39 PM.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  8. #68
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    It seems all we need do is wait and see how things develop in Lam, and then maybe we can offer constructive advice about how to get the desired effect.
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  9. #69
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    There are so few things to do they decided to work (a.k.a introduce new bugs) on something that doesn't need fixing.

    Way to keep your customers happy.

  10. #70
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Dumb change. Stop trying to remake basic mechanics and put out more content. Players are not leaving the game because secret doors are too easy to find...what a joke.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    Here are the details of the design, and what state the design is in for Lamannia:

    • We will be updating the Detect Secret Doors spell so that it scales up as your character levels up. We are still working the full design out - such as what the casting formula is specifically and which skills will influence it - and you therefore may experience odd behavior on Lamannia with the spell since the mechanic has not yet been finalized and the spell isn’t acting as it should in this build.
    • True Seeing will now detect secret doors if you would have been able to find the door with a Spot & Search check of 30. We were going for a simple round number that's right around the Heroic/Epic line. True Seeing will continue to have all of its other effects, including negating Displacement, Blur and Invisibility.
    • Any existing equipment that has the Detect Secret Doors spell will be set to an adjusted caster-level appropriate for Heroic content. The durations are intended to be the same as what they currently are on live.
    • The Divining Rod will be set to a higher caster level so that it’ll always succeed at detecting secret doors. We'll also keep its current duration where it is.
    Looks like the general intent is to put more weight on skills, so counter-proposal:

    1) Spot triggers a search roll.
    2) Detect Secret Doors bypasses spot and adds 5 to your search check without rolling.
    3) True Seeing bypasses spot and adds 10 ("taking 10" from the older rulebooks). Bonus points if it also applies to traps.
    4) The search animation, rogue enhancement line, or store item adds 20 ("taking 20" from the older rulebooks).
    Last edited by Scraap; 06-28-2013 at 07:51 PM.

  12. #72
    Community Member debo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post

    Who say it shouldn't be possible to detect secret doors? If anything compares to this modification then it is like the modification of the jump skill. Long time ago jump wasn't capped at 40, thus one could jump over walls and directly go from start to finish. This wasn't intended, nor is it - as far as I understand the OP - intended that a level 1 item reveals epic secret doors.

    But only because every dog is an animal one can't reason out of this that every animal is a dog. Or that just because a level 1 item can't reveal high level secret doors one isn't able to reveal secret doors at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I do agree and fear that there is a chance that they mess up with everything, but if they do they only cut in their own skin, so I don't believe it is their intention.
    But that's another point. Why shouldn't a level 1 item be able to detect any secret doors Doors don't change, they are either secret or not. Why should it matter whether I go into a lvl 25 quest and can detect a door with a lvl 1 item. Is that some super hidden door? No it's a plain hidden door that happens to be inside a higher level quest. But now your telling me that my secret door detector won't work on higher things. Why? What makes that door more special then the lower quest doors?
    Like the dev said they could just completely remove hidden doors and just put in normal doors. Then if that is what is needed, do it. Don't gut and change something not needed, just completely gut and remove the whole system of it.

    When I go into a quest and I try to open that door I don't need a skill check because it's a lvl 25 epic quest just to open a door, why should it be any different because they are secret.

    And yeah GreyM I saw what you posted elsewhere that this will most likely be a legacy of someone leaving and going elsewhere because it was a pet peeve of the dev, but that's still a load of garbage, more important things need fixing. It's time to consolidate those work forces instead of having them all run around in different directions each doing there own thing.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    Like the dev said they could just completely remove hidden doors and just put in normal doors. Then if that is what is needed, do it. Don't gut and change something not needed, just completely gut and remove the whole system of it.
    Right here is the crux of it for me.

    If you want to make the epic "secret" doors harder to go through, lock them with runes. Heck, it prevents many players from going to all places in the lower levels of the game. In fact, after Tear of Dhakaan that mechanic dries up completely. Instead of messing with the secret door mechanic that is working properly, just put the Stat Rune doors (or something similar) in future quests.
    Last edited by oradafu; 06-28-2013 at 08:47 PM.

  14. #74
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    But that's another point. Why shouldn't a level 1 item be able to detect any secret doors Doors don't change, they are either secret or not. Why should it matter whether I go into a lvl 25 quest and can detect a door with a lvl 1 item. Is that some super hidden door? No it's a plain hidden door that happens to be inside a higher level quest. But now your telling me that my secret door detector won't work on higher things. Why? What makes that door more special then the lower quest doors?
    Like the dev said they could just completely remove hidden doors and just put in normal doors. Then if that is what is needed, do it. Don't gut and change something not needed, just completely gut and remove the whole system of it.

    When I go into a quest and I try to open that door I don't need a skill check because it's a lvl 25 epic quest just to open a door, why should it be any different because they are secret.

    And yeah GreyM I saw what you posted elsewhere that this will most likely be a legacy of someone leaving and going elsewhere because it was a pet peeve of the dev, but that's still a load of garbage, more important things need fixing. It's time to consolidate those work forces instead of having them all run around in different directions each doing there own thing.
    secret doors are only hidden well enough depending on the caster who cast the door hidden. in other words, depending on the power of the spell would determine how well you can find that secret door. it makes sense to me a level 1 casting secret door clicky wouldn't work in a level 24 quest. it also makes sense that the dc required to find secret doors should increase through the levels. I don't think it makes sense that the skill required to find most secret doors should be so high that a Fighter or any class that obviously would ditch search skills should not be able to find them. I like the idea that some secret doors would require a high skill, but the loot or xp behind that door should be worth the trouble.

    most secret doors are easy to find and with clickies or TS items, you can find them all. there is one quest that I know of that has a very high search dc, A Cabal For One. ironically, last I knew, it also hides the hardest trap in the game. my biggest concern is how this will affect TS items. they are supposed to be auto-find.

  15. #75
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    Increasing search DC for higher level secret doors makes sense, whether they are better crafted or hidden with a stronger illusion. However, I think TS items that are a real PITB to get should not be nerfed (e.g. Voice and Mantle combination).
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    I've been reading quite a bit about how different people feel about this and I just want to say, if they intend to make this change to make it more like PnP, then they have to leave it as is. The spell (which, if any of you have forgotten, is what's in the clicky) detects all hidden doors and passages within an area of the caster (or whomever uses the clicky). Oh and while you're at it, why not change Knock to how it is in PnP? I think it'd be much better then, since it would outright unlock all locked doors, boxes, chests, passages, etc. If it has a latch and is locked, presto!

  17. #77
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    dont tell me you are also adding one time goggles of true detect door (something like bell of opening) to the e-store.
    that is all.
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  18. #78

    Post Simple Problems, Inmersive Solutions...

    I'll resume the initial post and give solutions as i always imagined them to be: (I'm sorry PurpleFooz, but this is how it feels for some of us after reading the original post)

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    Hello again! We're messing in this week’s Lamannia game build : the wonderful world of secret doors. Rogue/Artificer Classes/Splashes, the Arcane spells Detect Secret Doors and True sight and Divine spell Trap Finding should be inmersive, otherwise is useless, like the search class-skill in all Rangers.
    My 1st class was Rogue, thinking it could be this way, and it stood this way. As long as i kept voice chat off, and party chat off, and Maxxed SPOT to a point where i could sense things, but not SEARCH them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    Hidden doors and search skill become largely irrelevant because the SPELLS/SCROLLS/CLICKY to reveal them is available at level 1. Know where things are supposed to be, or have an experienced player with you and you basically never end up using your spot or search skills to find hidden doors, unless it's right there.
    I have Eidetic memory, and the only quests i enjoy now are the ones with RANDOM TRAP PLACEMENT. In fact, i never again used spot for anything, and started cleaving when looking for mobs on melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    Our quest makers place hidden doors in high level content, in which case, what is the point of making them hidden at all?
    TAKE THEM AWAY. No sense hiding the door by paining it like the wall, if it still has a frame and a doorknob.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We’ve deliberated over this for a while and there were a couple playerbase-rage inducing ways we could approach it.
    Before i started as a Dungeon Master for AD&D i aske my friends how would they do things, as i intended them to play my world, and i wanted it to be fun for THEM, and i have a knack at overcomplicating things.

    Such as this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We could try just not placing hidden doors anymore. Maybe one, every once in a while, in a random place, so you don't notice how useless they became. It’s faster to hide things in “out of the main path” places. That seemed smart, but could be felt like a punishment on the largely playerbase who likes to zerg, and not enjoy our maps.
    You could always give exp ticks on maps, such as explorers in wilderness, that triggered only the 1st time you go in a quest that made players go to the unused places in quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    We could nerf the instant-find spells. That also seemed efficient, but enraging. Or take them out completely. Which was worse. So, to avoid Map Designers mass suicides, and soften any radical changes to the quests players are used to, we did this, the very same way a pre-school kid does a newspaper out of paper mache, with newspaper.
    You guys remind me of Me, and my largely unused AD&D labyrinths...

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    [LIST][*]Detect Secret Doors spell will work just like if you took a full rank on spot and search every level. You will experience odd behavior on Lamannia with the spell we wanted it to be just like this, but did not do it in this build.
    You should make Traps be seen only by characters with "Trapfinding Feat" (Pen & Paper required you to have a certain amount of ranks in search if your class didn't grant it), and make Detect Secret Doors give a SEARCH skill high enough to find it, and a Spot-like warning of where it is.

    Or make Hidden Doors find DC = -1 to players with Detect Secret Doors active, after a proper search.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    [LIST][*]True Seeing will now detect secret doors if you would have been able to find the door with a Spot & Search check that is usually not enough. We were going for a number that's right around the Heroic/Epic line, but different quests of the same level have different DC's. This will be True Seeing's only damage.
    No one will notice, except those who use the Mantle+Voice Combo, or items that grant True Sight, such as Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    • Any existing equipment that has the Detect Secret Doors spell should give +spot/search = character level up to 20. The durations are untouched.
    • The Divining Rod will stay as it is. Warner Brothers will make us raise it's price once it hits live.
    THIS

    This WILL happen.

    And it will be just the crack in the dam, before DDO goes Pay to Win.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    As always you’re never welcome when providing negative feedback, but you will do it anyway. Keep in mind that the changes on Lamannia are not canon, and we can still go back to the way it was. We’re looking forward to getting the design up on a future build that you can have fun with, but lag will probably be gone by then, and you won't care anymore.

    Please, Don't kill the messenger - PurpleFooz
    I hate myself, but in spite of disliking negative feedback, and being a player that will keep playing until the game dies, or goes too expensive for me to the point that it's eat or game, I KNOW i made PurpleFooz's original post look bad, but that's how i felt when i read, even after trying being objective.

    Now,
    1.- Simple Solutions are not good nor fun for anyone. They bring anguish and are the leg amputation solution to a shoe that no longer fits.
    2.- Playerbase inherently hates poor Map Designer Artists. Why? They love their work, and we are not appretiating it. Cover your Maps People!
    Sure, one of the 8 Awesomium Process running should keep our maps always w/o fog of war, at least until TR, but it's true, other than sightseeing, there are no rewards to map-covering. I mean, i should get exp out of finding places you shouldn't be such as the locked gate to where the furniture airship would be in, while in Delirium, not Acute Delirium. Or jumping the Fence Gates in the ambush side of Missing.
    3.- Sure, 2 spells or effects take the fun of an inmersive feature such as Hidden Doors, but the solution should be a simple mechanic, of minimal adjustment, not a complete overhaul when you KNOW IN YOUR HEATS it will be hated. That was just the Map Developers giving their end of the stick to the ungrateful playerbase, and giving you guys the full blame.

  19. #79
    Community Member canisll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    Hello again! There’s another [...]
    Leave it as it is right now. If you really want to add to quest design implement Secret Doors with a twist.
    Such as locked by runes, by a Password, by a Monster,... There's a whole lot of possibilities.

    It doesn't always need to be such a widereaching approach. Why change the rules when you can just use storytelling?
    You'll just trade one type of issue that is only a minor inconvenience with a whole lot of issues that affect everyone.
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  20. #80
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    As long as we can still find secret doors without getting things from the store and as long as the game doesn't come crashing down with bugs i'm okay with this change.

    Every time i find a secret door with TS i feel dirty inside and wonder why everyone is using magic to conceal moving panels in the walls instead of building a nice mundane mechanical secret passage.

    Thanks for sharing this information with us PurpleFooz.

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