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Thread: Secret Doors!

  1. #21
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsking View Post
    if you want to pay more money for a item from the store that always works that can get destroyed be my guest... but if its not busted don't fix it
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Dont forget to give recognition to named items (heroic/epic and even events) for finding secret doors the credit they are due and scale them up
    Yes don't forget to scale the certain items that guarantee secret door detection. After all in the descriptions it is auto detection of secret door and not true seeing.

  3. #23
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    I definately think you are on the right track. As we become more powerful, so do the monsters we fight. In current content we are fighting gods for heavens sake! Surely they must have a better means of hiding their stuff than an ORC in STK does. Maybe not change the current method though, but add new "Warded" doors/chests that require a very high DC to get too. I like the idea, just re-think it. What you are suggesting doesn't say Nerf, but it is

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Or we can revisit the spells to be handled as they are suppose to be by the original rules

    Detect Secret Doors -
    You can detect secret doors, compartments, caches, and so forth. Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell.

    True Seeing -
    notices secret doors hidden by magic. True seeing does not help notice secret doors hidden by mundane means

    The point being that in PnP at higher levels the use of magical means to Hide Doors is used to get past Detect Secret Doors. I look at it as Detect Secret Doors helps with finding "Constructed" secrets through dungeon architecture while True Seeing is designed to Allow one to see doors hidden by magical means such as illusions.

    If I were asked to suggest a change I would offer this:

    1. Create two types of Secret Doors, Mundane (Architecture hidden) and Magically Hidden (Search DC base 25 plus level of Magic hiding door and can only be searched if the Class of Rogue/Artificer otherwise True Seeing is needed)

    2. Change the two spells to work: Detect Secret Doors for the Mundane and True Seeing for the Magical ones

    3. Change Elf (not half-elf) to do a Secret Door Search automatically when they pass by a secret door (but only once)

    This will allow doors for new content to utilize different types of Secret doors, making secrets a challenge.
    This

    plus
    add please the long (take 20) and short (throw a20) searches from another post here.
    Also Open Lock, long (take 20) and short (throw a20)
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    I guess there aren't a whole lot of rogues reading this. I love my true sight, but it gets boring to have it find things without even looking. I want those points that I spent on search and spot to be relevant and add value to my character. This sounds good and doable. We'll see how it works. Please folks just because a change is not important to the characters you play doesn't mean it is a waste of time or unimportant to anyone. I've been longing for something like this. Thank you devs.

    Edited to add:
    Would also be happy with Enoach's method, if the detect secret doors spell was given a skill roll based on caster's level. Would also love to have take 20s to mix for skills.
    Last edited by Aerinsma; 06-28-2013 at 12:27 PM.

  6. #26
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    First of all, I'll echo some of the other posters by saying that I understand the reasoning behind the change, but the timing is just awful. You have quite a few systems changes incoming and I'm certain that more than one will be very buggy. Combining them I suppose maximizes the odds of having at least one bug free system in place.

    With that out of the way, I do like the change in theory. It breathes new life into the search skill and makes it reasonable to put points into it even if you aren't a trapper. With the upcoming spellcraft/heal/repair/etc. changes, it's not like players have a lot of wiggle room. Making more skills viable definitely puts some emphasis on intel at character creation. The days of 18str/18con melee and 18cha/18con sorcs are probably soon to be gone. Wizards make out like bandits.

    For a bit of constructive thought, I like the way knock currently scales. The DC of the lock isn't necessarily tied into the level of the quest. There are quite a few high level locks that are able to be scroll knocked open, even in the end game. I would like to see detect secret doors work in a similar way where in general the DC scales upward, but there are some more mundane secret doors that a clickie or true seeing will spot even in the highest content.

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerinsma View Post
    Please folks just because a change is not important to the characters you play doesn't mean it is a waste of time or unimportant to anyone. I've been longing for something like this. Thank you devs.
    It's important to everyone because Turbine will do what they always do with "new and improved" systems. They'll abandon it halfway through implementing it and it'll break 20 seemingly unrelated things because the game code is worse than spaghetti.

    That's why people are unhappy with this. Not because they want to deny you the right to sniff flowers on your rogue.

  8. #28
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    First of all, I'll echo some of the other posters by saying that I understand the reasoning behind the change, but the timing is just awful. You have quite a few systems changes incoming and I'm certain that more than one will be very buggy. Combining them I suppose maximizes the odds of having at least one bug free system in place.

    With that out of the way, I do like the change in theory. It breathes new life into the search skill and makes it reasonable to put points into it even if you aren't a trapper. With the upcoming spellcraft/heal/repair/etc. changes, it's not like players have a lot of wiggle room. Making more skills viable definitely puts some emphasis on intel at character creation. The days of 18str/18con melee and 18cha/18con sorcs are probably soon to be gone. Wizards make out like bandits.

    For a bit of constructive thought, I like the way knock currently scales. The DC of the lock isn't necessarily tied into the level of the quest. There are quite a few high level locks that are able to be scroll knocked open, even in the end game. I would like to see detect secret doors work in a similar way where in general the DC scales upward, but there are some more mundane secret doors that a clickie or true seeing will spot even in the highest content.

    Overall Score
    +1 for flavor
    -1 for timing
    +1 for communication
    +1 revitalizing underused skills
    Actually I think the way it'll be used is that to find doors for now on you'll need

    23 ranks in search
    5 epic skills
    14 int base plus a 8 int item
    true seeing
    20 search item

    If you don't have that there will be a prompt for the ddo store when you fail the search. Believing anything else at this point is naive.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    '

    • True Seeing will now detect secret doors if you would have been able to find the door with a Spot & Search check of 30. We were going for a simple round number that's right around the Heroic/Epic line.
    30 is around the Heroic/Epic line? Level 20...23 ranks and a +15 item, and say +2 from stat (probably a lot more, but suppose you dumped the stat to a starting 8, have a +6 item and nothing else), makes 40.

    Also, does the spell stack with the actual skill? Or does someone with a skill of 30 get nothing from the spell?

  10. #30
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    I do undertand that you guys wish to change the true seeing thing, since the P&P spell description states that "True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means", but changing the detect secret doors spell is just wrong.

    It can be noted, however, that some doors can be hidden by both magic and by mundane means. That is the best D&D secret door thing I can think of without having to break the game mechanics. If the point is to block certain paths to a group without a skilled observer, just make the detect secret doors spells from clickies to last only 1 min again.

    Now if the point is to make Spot and Search useful, I think the proper way to do it is putting more quest optionals depending on it (finding objects in a room and such) and enemies with annoying traits like the Hiding in Plain Sight ability.

    Edit: It also can be noted that the Detect Secret Door Spell should work as a visual cone and it should require a spot time of ~6 seconds (one round) to actually detect anything, but right now it is an aura centered around the character that instantly detects everything around. Perhaps some work on these mechanics could actually help dungeon designing.
    Last edited by bbcjoke; 06-28-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    I think this a great change...

    Anything that makes skills more useful is good...

    As long as stuff behind hidden doors is optional.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    First of all, I'll echo some of the other posters by saying that I understand the reasoning behind the change, but the timing is just awful. You have quite a few systems changes incoming and I'm certain that more than one will be very buggy. Combining them I suppose maximizes the odds of having at least one bug free system in place.

    With that out of the way, I do like the change in theory. It breathes new life into the search skill and makes it reasonable to put points into it even if you aren't a trapper. With the upcoming spellcraft/heal/repair/etc. changes, it's not like players have a lot of wiggle room. Making more skills viable definitely puts some emphasis on intel at character creation. The days of 18str/18con melee and 18cha/18con sorcs are probably soon to be gone. Wizards make out like bandits.

    For a bit of constructive thought, I like the way knock currently scales. The DC of the lock isn't necessarily tied into the level of the quest. There are quite a few high level locks that are able to be scroll knocked open, even in the end game. I would like to see detect secret doors work in a similar way where in general the DC scales upward, but there are some more mundane secret doors that a clickie or true seeing will spot even in the highest content.

    Overall Score
    +1 for flavor
    -1 for timing
    +1 for communication
    +1 revitalizing underused skills
    Actually, the timing could be argued either way. Yes, more changes at a time make it harder to determine what caused which bug, but from a player perspective knowing all the changes affecting your character at once allows you to only have to redesign once.

  13. #33
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I think this a great change...

    Anything that makes skills more useful is good...

    As long as stuff behind hidden doors is optional.
    Mindsunder and lost thread come to mind as areas that will likely now need a rogue / arti to complete.

    Also I don't know if I'll laugh or cry when this breaks like spwr broke trap and mob damage and new players can't leave the grotto because they don't have enough search.

  14. #34
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    I think it's great you're trying to make skills more useful in more situations. (Stealth, search, traps, etc.)

    Intimidate/bluff/etc.

    Many skills have been revamped over the course of the game, and I like 100% of the effort put behind making skills functional.

    I think the largest worry is that secret doors turns into another elite traps character check.

    These types of bars all have the same issue IMHO. Bring the right class, or don't complete the quest.

    The traps hitting for 300+ on level 8 quests was a BAD choice. Similarly if secret doors require a 60dc at level 8 it's a bad choice. Just as if sneaking now enables a rouge to remain stealth 100% of the time, with 0% detection.

    "everyone in this game has to fight, get killed, dodge, and get annihilated in combat, and by traps, and get lost and can't progress because secret doors... However if you're an assassin, you no longer have to fight, you can disable all traps, find all secrets, open all locks, and only have to find the end encounter. Congrats rogues, you're the only class that can get "FULL" dungeon XP, by just navigating the map."

    I LOVE the idea of making skills useful. I just fear the skill "buff" is only buffing skills 2 classes have the points to get. Most people just min/max str/con/dex and dump int, because skills were mostly pointless... Int casters, assassins, and artis were the exception. They have LOTS of skill points.

    I guess I'll hold judgement till I see the outcomes... but you get the idea.

    I assume we all get a lesser reincarnation so we can now re-tool?

  15. #35
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    While this change can be awesome as well i fear that it can be very bad as well. I just hope that all those items that gave auto detection true seeing will still serve some purpose. there are quests where the lever is hidden behind a door. i hope that people will not be screwed because of it either. They shouldnt NEED a class to complete something either even at epic levels. im ok with changing it to an extent as long as some of it can still be found.

    if not you're kinda killing it for some.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    You will have your work cut out for you since there are many quests that have secret doors and many players that dont bring a rogue to find them.

    Hidden doors were allways better off being found with a clickie or item vs actually searching since it instantly found them...
    I actually like the idea behind this modification and if I understood correctly for a player that actually has a level appropriate clicky or TS nothing much will change. Maybe some quests may need some extra efforts on elite. Zergers and TRs anyway may not care about those optional stuff anyway and just skip ahead and for them the TS to overcome enemy blur effects still work.

    Where it will change is that you may actually need now a level appropriate item at hand if you are not a Rogue. In other words a "find hidden door"-clicky on a level 4 item will maybe still work till level 6, but reveal nothing in a level 18 quest as its caster level is too low.
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  17. #37
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    I guess the cure is to ensure quests have a balanced approach to the skills.

    50 quests with secret door optional treasure
    50 quests with locked chest optional treasure
    50 quests with concentration skill optional treasure
    50 quests with jump optional treasure
    50 quests with intimidate optional treasure
    50 quests with listen optional treasure
    etc

    The "rogue skills" need to be useful... But so do the other skills.

    If we do have a quest (non-chain) that has a 'class check' that is fine. But we need them even, and of equal value. Yeah, i can't do quest X, okay, but 'they' can't do quest 'y'.
    Last edited by 350zguy; 06-28-2013 at 02:09 PM.

  18. #38
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    Now see, the last two Lamania releases, about TR XP being normalized as well as the 'quest ransack' system and stealth being addressed as part of an AI Awareness revamp were so good. I knew the streak couldn't last.

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    True Seeing will now detect secret doors if you would have been able to find the door with a Spot & Search check of 30. We were going for a simple round number that's right around the Heroic/Epic line. True Seeing will continue to have all of its other effects, including negating Displacement, Blur and Invisibility.
    So, essentially if running any of the mid level or higher content on Elite without a Rogue or Artificer, we can now kiss many optional areas goodbye. This seems very silly to me. One of the most important things I learned as a DM is that it is not actually good to trick the players, but rather make them think that you are trying to trick them while coming just short of actually doing so. If you trick them, then they never learn about the hook or that aspect of the campaign. But if you come just short of tricking them, then they feel a sense of 'accomplishment', real or perceived doesn't really matter, at having managed to do so.

    I really have no clue why you would want to seal so much content away, out of the reach of players. Is it just because content designers were angry that their 'hidden' doors were discoverable by anyone, rather than only those who have taken/splashed a specific class?

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    [*]The Divining Rod will be set to a higher caster level so that it’ll always succeed at detecting secret doors. We'll also keep its current duration where it is.
    Oh, right, gotcha....
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-28-2013 at 02:33 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mute_mayhem View Post
    It's important to everyone because Turbine will do what they always do with "new and improved" systems. They'll abandon it halfway through implementing it and it'll break 20 seemingly unrelated things because the game code is worse than spaghetti.

    That's why people are unhappy with this. Not because they want to deny you the right to sniff flowers on your rogue.
    Ah, so this is a rage at change in general. Thanks for clarifying.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisAmethyst View Post
    I actually like the idea behind this modification and if I understood correctly for a player that actually has a level appropriate clicky or TS nothing much will change. Maybe some quests may need some extra efforts on elite. Zergers and TRs anyway may not care about those optional stuff anyway and just skip ahead and for them the TS to overcome enemy blur effects still work.

    Where it will change is that you may actually need now a level appropriate item at hand if you are not a Rogue. In other words a "find hidden door"-clicky on a level 4 item will maybe still work till level 6, but reveal nothing in a level 18 quest as its caster level is too low.
    I agree.
    Problem is DDO hasn't invested any time into creating different types of secret doors, those that are camouflaged vs those magically hidden. they are all vanilla secret doors.
    The only different one is in the Lord of Blades quest that actually requires a search regardless of True seeing or Secret door detection items.

    Problem I see is every quest needs to be revisted and adjusted.
    I don't have any confidence that the majority of these will be fixed correctly, and what resource will be put aside to correct these... hopefully not the same people looking after ladder lag or stuck spots.. The stuck spot I have reported every year for the last 4 years by the stairs to the inn is still there.

    I am left with the preception that DDO resources spread so thin that very little active resources are being put into fixing current things that dont work while things that do work are being arbitrarially roller brush changed like a bull in a china shop with no one to clean up or finish what was left behind.


    I would really hope that revisted quests would have a long path for the cant find a scret door so we have to take a longer path for the optional... or hah found the secret door now we can take the shortcut to the optional... But what DDO person has time to fix all of these let alone fix them right...
    Last edited by JOTMON; 06-28-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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