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  1. #1
    Lead Developer PurpleFooz's Avatar
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    Default Secret Doors!

    Hello again! There’s another change that will be visible on this week’s Lamannia game build before we’re done with implementation: the wonderful world of secret doors. As part of our work to enhance Shadar-kai, Rogue, and other “sneaky business” in game, we have been evaluating the way secret doors behave in game content at high levels.

    Hidden doors and search skill become largely irrelevant at the higher levels of the game because the magic to reveal them is available at such low levels. Above level 5 to 8, you basically never end up using your spot or search skills to find hidden doors. Our quest makers place hidden doors in high level content, but if everyone can automatically see them, then those doors are not very “hidden”, in which case, what is the point of making them hidden at all?

    We’ve deliberated over this for a while and there were a couple ways we could approach it. We could try just not placing hidden doors anymore. It’s faster for us to place basic doors… but then it also means there’s just physically nothing “hidden” for you to find. That seemed bad. We could nerf the instant-find spells. That also seemed bad. So we were at kind of an impasse to meet our design goals. We’ve landed on a design that we think will reward players for character advancement, encourage designers to keep hiding those doors in newer high level content, and soften any radical changes to the quests players are used to.

    Here are the details of the design, and what state the design is in for Lamannia:

    • We will be updating the Detect Secret Doors spell so that it scales up as your character levels up. We are still working the full design out - such as what the casting formula is specifically and which skills will influence it - and you therefore may experience odd behavior on Lamannia with the spell since the mechanic has not yet been finalized and the spell isn’t acting as it should in this build.
    • True Seeing will now detect secret doors if you would have been able to find the door with a Spot & Search check of 30. We were going for a simple round number that's right around the Heroic/Epic line. True Seeing will continue to have all of its other effects, including negating Displacement, Blur and Invisibility.
    • Any existing equipment that has the Detect Secret Doors spell will be set to an adjusted caster-level appropriate for Heroic content. The durations are intended to be the same as what they currently are on live.
    • The Divining Rod will be set to a higher caster level so that it’ll always succeed at detecting secret doors. We'll also keep its current duration where it is.



    As always you’re welcome to provide feedback on these changes, but keep in mind that the version of the changes that you’ll be seeing on Lamannia are not ready to be taken for a test drive yet. We’re looking forward to getting the design up on a future build that you can play with, and we’ll let you know once that time comes!
    - PurpleFooz

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    I am astonished that with all the issues with this game you actually bothered spending time on something this trivial.

    This is the poison immunity nonsense all over again.

  3. #3
    Community Member rsking's Avatar
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    ok this is bull how the hell do you expect quests that don't need people that need to disable traps and such that don't even have a very high spot to even detect these doors to begin with sense you really don't need to spot anything. I say leave it cause most of the time people don't even bother with optionals in quests that are behind hidden doors
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  4. #4
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    Default A different opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by rsking View Post
    ok this is bull how the hell do you expect quests that don't need people that need to disable traps and such that don't even have a very high spot to even detect these doors to begin with sense you really don't need to spot anything. I say leave it cause most of the time people don't even bother with optionals in quests that are behind hidden doors
    So, I am not people then I guess. Us patient, adult types, that actually enjoy the quests as much, if not more, then the loot they supply, DO the optionals. I for one am glad that the points in spot, search, heal, listen, and repair are being made relevant again.

    That being said, I also agree that there were bigger fish to fry than messing with this mechanic to begin with. Put some of the bored designers to the task of actually listening to the player base and giving us 1 or 2 of the things we ask for. Just a thought.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Varinox's Avatar
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    If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

    As things are Secret doors are fine, they are worth including because they add flavour to the quests they are in.

    INstead of messing with Secret doors, Change Search to have 2 options, Quick Search and detailed Search

    Quick Search d20 Roll + Search Skill, happens almost instantly
    Detailed Search; 20+ Search Skill, same time as current search mechanics, the equivalent of taking 20

    Apply the same to Disable Device and Open locks while you're at it, so those with exceptional skills can Search, Disable Traps and Open locks significantly faster than those who just splash builds.

    This has the advantage that players can hurriedly try to disable traps in the midst of hectic combat situations, without worrying about being interrupted and that the current induction Bars effectively simulate the Take 20, and any interruption breaks them.

    Quote Originally Posted by D20srd
    Time And Skill Checks
    Using a skill might take a round, take no time, or take several rounds or even longer. Most skill uses are standard actions, move actions, or full-round actions. Types of actions define how long activities take to perform within the framework of a combat round (6 seconds) and how movement is treated with respect to the activity. Some skill checks are instant and represent reactions to an event, or are included as part of an action.

    These skill checks are not actions. Other skill checks represent part of movement.

    Taking 20
    When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
    As it currently stands it sort of feels that using the above skills takes too long, so instead of messing with the spells, mess with the skills to make them more user friendly.
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  6. #6
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    I can see why you guys thought it was necessary to do this, but to do it NOW??

    Doing this while there are enhancements, adventure packs, complete reworking of items, skills, classes, launcher, loot, TR'ing, xp, etc going on seems like a touch of madness to me..

    This seems frivolous in the face of such sweeping game changes.
    Mayhap focusing on the big picture with more people will result in a better end product, and secret doors can be tinkered with at a better time?


    Also.. Couldn't help but notice you're making it so nothing is guaranteed to succeed any more except the store bought item. At least, it sounds that way from the initial layout. Good luck to you!
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  7. #7
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    If I understand correctly, the goal is to give players the opportunity to find little hidden surprises in the game (surprises that would be hidden behind the secret door). This would only really impact players who are interested in finding these surprises/extras; other players would not care. I cannot imagine that you would hinge quest completion on this effect; then you would rightly hear an outcry from players.

    Instead of messing with detecting secret doors, why not find more creative ways to “hide” these extras. For example, I think the portal in the bank on The Stormreaver Fresco quest is an excellent design. It’s a nice extra (i.e., not required to complete the quest), for those willing to have the appropriate skill (lock-picking in this case) and willingness to take the time (It was in the next to last vault last time I ran the quest). You could have extra’s that require other skills; like maybe a door that will only open with a charisma based skill check (diplo, bluff, intim). You have to talk to the door to get it to open or something. Partycrashers has extras similar to this kind of thing.

    Ultimately, I have to agree with others here that breaking something that works is not needed to add to players’ gaming experience; assuming that is your primary motivation.

  8. #8
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Why not just put a lock on the door any thing you gain from this change will degrade down to the exact same thing as having the door locked.

    Secret door for flavor lock to make it challenging to get in.

    Its not like you will put a shrine behind the door then make the search DC to get to it super challenging. Remember Tear of Dankar and how it was nerfed. LMAO
    Last edited by Grailhawk; 06-28-2013 at 11:47 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    blinks

    all the problems with the game.....

    all the rage over the enhancment pass

    all the rage over losing ed xp on trs....

    no raid in the expansion .....

    endgame killed to be just 2 raids .....

    but you put dev time on this ... can't think of a non bannable word for it.

    Seriously what is going thru your collective heads at turbine? There is no need for these changes, and honestly I don't see how they're going to make the majority of players game more enjoyable. You'll get a small percentage of people happy about it that like exploring every little corner their 20th time thru the quest, but most people will just find it a hinderance.

  10. #10
    Community Member rsking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Also.. Couldn't help but notice you're making it so nothing is guaranteed to succeed any more except the store bought item. At least, it sounds that way from the initial layout. Good luck to you!

    ya thats what i seen which is also BS cause all that means to most people that just want to get xp as fast as possible is.... forget the optionals and lets just get this done and I don't care if i don't get a named Item that I can't get without a high enough search skill or pay real money for just data.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Grosbeak07's Avatar
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    I like this idea. Actually pulls the game (a bit) closer to DnD instead of away from it.

    Right now Rogues are nothing more than fighters with fewer Hit points and evasion. You don't need people to do traps or find secret doors. Every dumb barbarian can use a clickie to find a door these days, using items that in pen and paper were generally more rare. As Purple Fooz said, it makes secret doors trivial if everyone can find them, there is no point in having them.

    Now I'll have to wait and see how all these changes manifest themselves on Lamannia before passing final judgement, but the fact they want to make skills and certain classes actually useful for something other than additional dps... is a good move in my book.
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  12. #12
    Community Member ddo.rsmo.pt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosbeak07 View Post
    I like this idea. Actually pulls the game (a bit) closer to DnD instead of away from it.
    Let me cut you right there...

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    (...)True Seeing will now detect secret doors if you would have been able to find the door with a Spot & Search check of 30.
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    (...)We will be updating the Detect Secret Doors spell so that it scales up as your character levels up.
    Now, go check True Seeing and Detect Secret Doors.

    Net worth = Nerf, with most assuredly some new bugs, and quickly followed by a paid item that does the same as the current free ones.

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  13. #13
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Or we can revisit the spells to be handled as they are suppose to be by the original rules

    Detect Secret Doors -
    You can detect secret doors, compartments, caches, and so forth. Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell.

    True Seeing -
    notices secret doors hidden by magic. True seeing does not help notice secret doors hidden by mundane means

    The point being that in PnP at higher levels the use of magical means to Hide Doors is used to get past Detect Secret Doors. I look at it as Detect Secret Doors helps with finding "Constructed" secrets through dungeon architecture while True Seeing is designed to Allow one to see doors hidden by magical means such as illusions.

    If I were asked to suggest a change I would offer this:

    1. Create two types of Secret Doors, Mundane (Architecture hidden) and Magically Hidden (Search DC base 25 plus level of Magic hiding door and can only be searched if the Class of Rogue/Artificer otherwise True Seeing is needed)

    2. Change the two spells to work: Detect Secret Doors for the Mundane and True Seeing for the Magical ones

    3. Change Elf (not half-elf) to do a Secret Door Search automatically when they pass by a secret door (but only once)

    This will allow doors for new content to utilize different types of Secret doors, making secrets a challenge.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Or we can revisit the spells to be handled as they are suppose to be by the original rules

    Detect Secret Doors -
    You can detect secret doors, compartments, caches, and so forth. Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell.

    True Seeing -
    notices secret doors hidden by magic. True seeing does not help notice secret doors hidden by mundane means

    The point being that in PnP at higher levels the use of magical means to Hide Doors is used to get past Detect Secret Doors. I look at it as Detect Secret Doors helps with finding "Constructed" secrets through dungeon architecture while True Seeing is designed to Allow one to see doors hidden by magical means such as illusions.

    If I were asked to suggest a change I would offer this:

    1. Create two types of Secret Doors, Mundane (Architecture hidden) and Magically Hidden (Search DC base 25 plus level of Magic hiding door and can only be searched if the Class of Rogue/Artificer otherwise True Seeing is needed)

    2. Change the two spells to work: Detect Secret Doors for the Mundane and True Seeing for the Magical ones

    3. Change Elf (not half-elf) to do a Secret Door Search automatically when they pass by a secret door (but only once)

    This will allow doors for new content to utilize different types of Secret doors, making secrets a challenge.
    This

    plus
    add please the long (take 20) and short (throw a20) searches from another post here.
    Also Open Lock, long (take 20) and short (throw a20)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Or we can revisit the spells to be handled as they are suppose to be by the original rules

    Detect Secret Doors -
    You can detect secret doors, compartments, caches, and so forth. Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell.

    True Seeing -
    notices secret doors hidden by magic. True seeing does not help notice secret doors hidden by mundane means

    The point being that in PnP at higher levels the use of magical means to Hide Doors is used to get past Detect Secret Doors. I look at it as Detect Secret Doors helps with finding "Constructed" secrets through dungeon architecture while True Seeing is designed to Allow one to see doors hidden by magical means such as illusions.

    If I were asked to suggest a change I would offer this:

    1. Create two types of Secret Doors, Mundane (Architecture hidden) and Magically Hidden (Search DC base 25 plus level of Magic hiding door and can only be searched if the Class of Rogue/Artificer otherwise True Seeing is needed)

    2. Change the two spells to work: Detect Secret Doors for the Mundane and True Seeing for the Magical ones

    3. Change Elf (not half-elf) to do a Secret Door Search automatically when they pass by a secret door (but only once)

    This will allow doors for new content to utilize different types of Secret doors, making secrets a challenge.
    Great idea!!

  16. #16
    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
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    What a daft idea this is.

    Way to render rogues even more obsolete devs.

    I can see the LFM panel now: "rogue wanted traps/secret doors bonus"

    Now in quests while the party gets the thing finished, the poor old rogue will be trailing behind, not only getting the traps, but now searching out the secret doors. Who on earth thinks that this makes the game more exciting and new player friendly for the rogue class???

  17. #17
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    Now in quests while the party gets the thing finished, the poor old rogue will be trailing behind, not only getting the traps, but now searching out the secret doors. Who on earth thinks that this makes the game more exciting and new player friendly for the rogue class???
    Me. I love playing the rogue class.

    The traps in DDO are varied and interesting and very different from other MMOs...

    My first character was a rogue, and I loved the immersion of secret doors and traps and locks and spotting hidden mobs, and getting spot messages no one else could see (Listen messages too, because I maxed that out back then as well).

    It does make me somewhat sad that everyone finds all secret doors immediately, and most people run past traps.

    I don't know if this change is necessary, but I am a huge proponent of making skills more useful (Bring back the special DM messages for high Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, etc skills!)
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  18. #18
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Or we can revisit the spells to be handled as they are suppose to be by the original rules

    Detect Secret Doors -
    You can detect secret doors, compartments, caches, and so forth. Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell.

    True Seeing -
    notices secret doors hidden by magic. True seeing does not help notice secret doors hidden by mundane means

    The point being that in PnP at higher levels the use of magical means to Hide Doors is used to get past Detect Secret Doors. I look at it as Detect Secret Doors helps with finding "Constructed" secrets through dungeon architecture while True Seeing is designed to Allow one to see doors hidden by magical means such as illusions.

    If I were asked to suggest a change I would offer this:

    1. Create two types of Secret Doors, Mundane (Architecture hidden) and Magically Hidden (Search DC base 25 plus level of Magic hiding door and can only be searched if the Class of Rogue/Artificer otherwise True Seeing is needed)

    2. Change the two spells to work: Detect Secret Doors for the Mundane and True Seeing for the Magical ones

    3. Change Elf (not half-elf) to do a Secret Door Search automatically when they pass by a secret door (but only once)

    This will allow doors for new content to utilize different types of Secret doors, making secrets a challenge.
    I agree with these suggestions. And yes, Eonach is dead on about the concealed vs secret doors. Just make a new class of door that requires physical searching to find instead of retconning everything.

  19. #19
    Founder Kylstrem's Avatar
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    If you are going to try make rogue-y things like this more rogue-friendly (i.e. people might actually want a rogue in their party), then work on making it less annoying to wait for rogues to do their jobs.

    Waiting 5-10 seconds for a rogue to search for a door or trap, then another 5-10 seconds to disable the trap is probably the biggest reason why people want to use Detect Secret door clickies or true seeing, or just run through traps.

    Rogues should get better at this as they level. Scale the speed at which rogues Search/Disable/Unlock as the rogue levels.

    In fact, at really high levels, rogues should have the ability to find secret doors, find traps, open locks and disable traps almost automatically. This could be an ED feat (i.e. rogue just runs by and traps/secret doors are found/disabled).

    Parties would love to have a rogue who could do this type of stuff.

    And you could even reward the two people that took the Mechanic rogue Prestige class by having their speed scale even faster.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylstrem View Post
    If you are going to try make rogue-y things like this more rogue-friendly (i.e. people might actually want a rogue in their party), then work on making it less annoying to wait for rogues to do their jobs.

    Waiting 5-10 seconds for a rogue to search for a door or trap, then another 5-10 seconds to disable the trap is probably the biggest reason why people want to use Detect Secret door clickies or true seeing, or just run through traps.

    Rogues should get better at this as they level. Scale the speed at which rogues Search/Disable/Unlock as the rogue levels.

    In fact, at really high levels, rogues should have the ability to find secret doors, find traps, open locks and disable traps almost automatically. This could be an ED feat (i.e. rogue just runs by and traps/secret doors are found/disabled).

    Parties would love to have a rogue who could do this type of stuff.

    And you could even reward the two people that took the Mechanic rogue Prestige class by having their speed scale even faster.
    Take a look at Rogue enhancements in Lamma land.
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