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Thread: Secret Doors!

  1. #381
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The problem is that it's not going to be epic content that gets messed up here.

    Some examples of non-optional secret doors
    The grotto
    The collaborator
    The church and the cult
    There's a lever in collaborator, ANYONE can get grotto secret door (it has a DC of -5), and they are fixing church and the cult.

    You guys are really reaching here. I find it funny that the "powergamers" on these boards are always the ones who cry the most about change... There's absolutely nothing wrong if you can't solo every single quest in the game with any character...

    You guys always cry about the game was better in the past when it was tougher, but whenever the devs make any change to make it harder, you guys scream...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You guys always cry about the game was better in the past when it was tougher, but whenever the devs make any change to make it harder, you guys scream...
    This change does not make the game harder or tougher, if anything it makes it more bland and easier - since people will stop running optionals.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  3. #383
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I paid for the content on the basis of the rules then available, which meant I could run the content behind those secret doors. Can I please have a refund for the bait and switch we're doing this time?

    Anyway, more seriously: Why is getting people to run LESS of your available content a good idea? I don't get it.
    Your sig says "say NO to bland game experience"

    My second character was a rogue because my first character couldn't see secret doors and traps.... Secret doors added a real sense of the D&D tabletop game...

    Just like I miss sprint boost when I'm playing my cleric, I miss being able to spot everything when I'm playing my barb... But that's okay. Every character shouldn't be able to do everything easily.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 08-08-2013 at 07:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  4. #384
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    This change does not make the game harder or tougher, if anything it makes it more bland and easier - since people will stop running optionals.
    Only people who min/max will stop running optionals... (actually most of you stopped running optionals years ago).

    You're the one making the game bland and boring for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Your sig says "say NO to bland game experience"
    Indeed. And this change will make it more bland, since it will lock many players out of a sizeable chunk of the content.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  6. #386
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Isn't the reason most of us make fun of other games is because every class is basically the same?

    Is that what you guys are striving for here?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Only people who min/max will stop running optionals... (actually most of you stopped running optionals years ago).

    You're the one making the game bland and boring for yourself.
    I cannot speak for these people you talk of. What I can speak of is that this particular change locks out me and many others from playing a sizeable part of the content, thus making for more bland gameplay.
    Last edited by Dandonk; 08-08-2013 at 08:03 AM.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Isn't the reason most of us make fun of other games is because every class is basically the same?

    Is that what you guys are striving for here?
    Is the only meaningful difference between classes you can find the ability to find secret doors?

    I'm striving for having access to the content I used to have access to, no more and no less.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  9. #389
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Is the only meaningful difference between classes you can find the ability to find secret doors?

    I'm striving for having access to the content I used to have access to, no more and no less.
    It's one of the differences... I'd oppose adding sprint boost to clerics as well, even though it's only one of the differences between a barbarian and a cleric.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  10. #390
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I cannot speak for these people you talk of. What I can speak of is that this particular change locks out me and many others from playing a sizeable part of the content, thus making for more bland gameplay.
    Guess what... you'll have a LR +20 in your pocket in two weeks. If it matters to you, fix it. You're not locked out from playing a "sizeable part of the content".

    Hey, here's an idea... Anyone who voluntarily skips 80% of the content already when TRing doesn't get to complain about not being to complete solo the 2-3 quests where secret doors are mandatory.

    There are certain quests I get a group before doing. This may add two more to that list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It's one of the differences... I'd oppose adding sprint boost to clerics as well, even though it's only one of the differences between a barbarian and a cleric.
    OK, then. Let's remove healing spells from rangers and paladins, then, since it's one of the differences between them and fvs/clerics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Guess what... you'll have a LR +20 in your pocket in two weeks. If it matters to you, fix it. You're not locked out from playing a "sizeable part of the content".

    So now you want to force me into building my characters the way you think is good? No thank you. One of the good things about DDO has been that many builds were supported. They even removed toughness as a forced-to-take feat... and then went right on and implemented must-have skills instead... /puzzled

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Hey, here's an idea... Anyone who voluntarily skips 80% of the content already when TRing doesn't get to complain about not being to complete solo the 2-3 quests where secret doors are mandatory.

    There are certain quests I get a group before doing. This may add two more to that list.
    1) I don't skip 80% of the content while TRing, not even close to. So please stop trying to frame me into your "evil powergamer" sterotype.

    2) I'm not just talking about mandatory doors, I'm talking about not being able to do parts of the dungeons I used to be able to. That's also content that I'm not allowed to do anymore, unless I play PRECISELY the way Turbine wants me to.

    Again, one of the good things about DDO has been that there used to be support for many different playstyles, buil styles and so on. I do not see the recent changes away from that as good, not at all.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    There are certain quests I get a group before doing. This may add two more to that list.
    For me: There are certain quests I don't run. This may add two more to that list.

    Detecting doors has been something I haven't considered a rogues job for a long time. It's just been whoever has the clicky.

    The idea of waiting for a specific class sucks. It'll be like waiting for a cleric... but you don't get the easy-win button. (When I say a "cleric", I don't mean whatever you call my clerics. It has overwhelming crit, which sums up how I feel about healing)

  13. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    There's a lever in collaborator, ANYONE can get grotto secret door (it has a DC of -5), and they are fixing church and the cult.

    You guys are really reaching here. I find it funny that the "powergamers" on these boards are always the ones who cry the most about change... There's absolutely nothing wrong if you can't solo every single quest in the game with any character...

    You guys always cry about the game was better in the past when it was tougher, but whenever the devs make any change to make it harder, you guys scream...
    I am by far a power gamer. I don't cry because I can't solo every quest. I don't get up set because my pure barbarian can't disable traps. I am one of those players who will go 10 minutes out of my way down a side tunnel filled with tough mobs and traps just to get that extra 100 optional xp.

    Raise the secret door DC to 100 if they want. I see no real benefit for my characters to put precious skill points into a skill that will only allow me to pass through a secret door. When it comes to going through a secret door to finish a quest with no other optional route, I just won't bother with the quest unless I know I can pass through with what I have or someone in my group can open it.

    If you want to invest in search on your non trapper characters, I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't or can't. I will say, though, I see no good reason to do it. I would rather put those 2 skill points for every character level into something that helps my character with save rolls, umd or whatever else that is actually beneficial to my character. Search is not going to help my character get off the ground quicker or increase my per cent chances on scrolls. Most secret doors are optional so it should be optional to invest in search, not a must.

  14. #394
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    My error. ML 7 goggles are +11. Still plenty to open secret door in The Church and the Cult. Gotta <3 racial things.
    Racial stuff is going away, though there is going to be a masterful crafting option fyi, I think it works out the same but not positive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    There's a lever in collaborator, ANYONE can get grotto secret door (it has a DC of -5), and they are fixing church and the cult.

    You guys are really reaching here. I find it funny that the "powergamers" on these boards are always the ones who cry the most about change... There's absolutely nothing wrong if you can't solo every single quest in the game with any character...

    You guys always cry about the game was better in the past when it was tougher, but whenever the devs make any change to make it harder, you guys scream...
    Nice job cherry picking the first 3 quests I had on the list, but the problem is that it doesn't make anything harder, just annoying that I know have to put points into useless skills, wait for someone (never going to happen), or not run the quests. How is a change that will reduce the number of people running quests, and I do throw up lfms so I'm one of the few left that does that, help the game? Seriously how does this do anything good?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Only people who min/max will stop running optionals... (actually most of you stopped running optionals years ago).

    You're the one making the game bland and boring for yourself.
    You know how many times someone has asked me about doing an optional in a pug lately (6 months ish) I think once. That means that the game is now almost solely made up by your evil min/maxers. Sorry but 5 mins for a 100xp optional that has no loot and no challenge to it is not fun and I honestly know no one who will do it, and those conditions sum up the vast majority of ddo optionals.


    As far as secret doors adding something to the classes that get search, in that case you should be fighting this.

    Now if people actually want to do secret doors they'll have to invest in search, so if we ever get optionals worth doing you're going to see a lot of 1 or 2 arti and rogue builds as since everyone will want to find the doors they'll splash so they can pick up dd as well. Congrats many toons are now following the same build with a certain splash. All characters are now more similar to each other, the exact thing you claim to be fighting against.

  15. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I am by far a power gamer. I don't cry because I can't solo every quest. I don't get up set because my pure barbarian can't disable traps. I am one of those players who will go 10 minutes out of my way down a side tunnel filled with tough mobs and traps just to get that extra 100 optional xp.

    Raise the secret door DC to 100 if they want. I see no real benefit for my characters to put precious skill points into a skill that will only allow me to pass through a secret door. When it comes to going through a secret door to finish a quest with no other optional route, I just won't bother with the quest unless I know I can pass through with what I have or someone in my group can open it.

    If you want to invest in search on your non trapper characters, I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't or can't. I will say, though, I see no good reason to do it. I would rather put those 2 skill points for every character level into something that helps my character with save rolls, umd or whatever else that is actually beneficial to my character. Search is not going to help my character get off the ground quicker or increase my per cent chances on scrolls. Most secret doors are optional so it should be optional to invest in search, not a must.
    Exactly right, and it is optional. Just like most every other aspect of character building. We disperse our resources based on what we want our characters to do. We make our decisions based on what each of us considers important. This change has an impact on the consequences of one of those build decisions. It is a small thing for me, and I believe it will be a small thing for most.

    As for you who protest the nerfing of your easy button, you people are the only ones who control what you can and cannot access.

    The choice is yours, and if you decide not to choose, that is also your choice. Own it.
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  16. #396
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    There is another potential wrinkle about the upcoming Secret Door changes that no one has mentioned. One of the changes to the last Monster Manual was to remove all the Account deeds for Hunter rewards. This is change cuts both ways with the Secret Door changes.

    First, I doubt the changes were made because of the upcoming changes and more because people who didn't own all content complaining about unlocking the HP bars and cosmetic pets. The changes don't really hurt this change (as much as I hate both the MM and Secret Door changes).

    Second, all Monster Manuals now aren't as useful XP-wise as they were previously if the Secret Doors have DCs that are too high for most builds. Unlocking the account Hunter in the first batch of Monster Manuals and the XP bonus in the individual Hunters will be primarily accessible to builds that invest in Search. Why? Because many of the mobs needed are rares and many of the rares hide behind secret doors. And grouping to run the same content over and over just to find a single mob that may or may not appear will not be as easy or fun as people think it is. We can just look at the farming of old base Epic items for something similar (think SS Ring, Kron'zek's Cruelty or Mask of Comedy), but waiting for a trapper who may or may not have an incentive to keep hitting the optional.

    Again, it's too late now, but I think the consequence of this change may have a bigger impact than many people realize or expected.

  17. #397
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    Default When discussion turns pointless

    Ok so here we have something that started out as a discussion. People marked their places in the sandbox and started discussing. Some like to see heavy investment into search as a need to make players have characters that actually learn how to search instead of auto finding everything, some like to be able to use a simple clicky and not have to bother about searching.

    But I fail to see how you can uphold that its too harsh on players when a dev states that most quests where you HAVE to search to get further have a negative DC, or only a nominal one, people who call themselves power gamers want to uphold that its unfair on them.
    If just about any character can have a search skill of about 4-6 (without further investment in the skill) on a mid lvl character and a simple ship buff / potion of fox cunning etc, can boost that to 4-10, how can it then be a problem when a lvl 11 quest (9 +2 for elite) has a DC of 9 to find the door?
    We are not talking about anyone needing an extraordinary search item (you can have a +7 item from the 4th lvl CC trinket by the way, and the 8th lvl one has +11, really not that hard to obtain and certainly not for anyone who feels they are a power gamer) at a minimum, or needing to heavily invest points in search here if you want to solo it on a character that is dumping INT.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    There is another potential wrinkle about the upcoming Secret Door changes that no one has mentioned. One of the changes to the last Monster Manual was to remove all the Account deeds for Hunter rewards. This is change cuts both ways with the Secret Door changes.

    First, I doubt the changes were made because of the upcoming changes and more because people who didn't own all content complaining about unlocking the HP bars and cosmetic pets. The changes don't really hurt this change (as much as I hate both the MM and Secret Door changes).

    Second, all Monster Manuals now aren't as useful XP-wise as they were previously if the Secret Doors have DCs that are too high for most builds. Unlocking the account Hunter in the first batch of Monster Manuals and the XP bonus in the individual Hunters will be primarily accessible to builds that invest in Search. Why? Because many of the mobs needed are rares and many of the rares hide behind secret doors. And grouping to run the same content over and over just to find a single mob that may or may not appear will not be as easy or fun as people think it is. We can just look at the farming of old base Epic items for something similar (think SS Ring, Kron'zek's Cruelty or Mask of Comedy), but waiting for a trapper who may or may not have an incentive to keep hitting the optional.

    Again, it's too late now, but I think the consequence of this change may have a bigger impact than many people realize or expected.
    Good points all.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    What is the proper amount of "entitlement" someone should have who paid real money for a video game dungeon? I don't know but I feel I should be able to at least play and complete what I paid for.
    IMO the proper amount is zero. You paid for a game to play that someone else created with their vision of flow, complexity, fun, challenge, etc. I'm grateful that it's not a closed system and players have input but at the end of the day I do not expect the developers to cater to my every desire. Nor, as one of the many paying members, do I want the Devs to cater to other peoples every desire. While the argument that many put forth is that if you make it too hard people will walk away, the converse is equally true. If you make it too easy, people will walk away. It's a fine line with no easy answers, and so my only response is that as a player I appreciate and support any efforts to take filler (meaningless skills) and make it a valuable part of the experience. Does it change the game? Absolutely! Is it a bad change or a good change? That is a matter of perspective.

    -sloejack

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    I think progression in a quest should not be strapped to a skill that only 1 type of build ever invests in.
    This right here I think is the problem. Only 1 type of build ever invests in something because either A) that's their "job" or B) it's something that the player base has determined is in general a very good thing that all builds should have if they can. That's a function of learning the game and the mechanics of it. This is no different of an issue. The consternation I think is that the proposal is to take something that was previously relegated to a dump status to at least a moderate need status which probably alters many of today's builds. That's not all bad, it just means there will be different/new builds tomorrow and the players evolve as the game evolves.

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