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Thread: Secret Doors!

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    Some players have asked for Church and Cult and Keeper's Sanctuary's door DCs to be reduced, but it looks like there are as many players who want them to stay the same. So for the time being, we're keeping their settings as described in my original post quoted above. Again, this is easy to change if some players are just not getting through those dungeons.

    I know there's a post that someone was getting a DC of 15 in Church and Cult on elite. That's definitely an unintentional bug (a race condition because the DC setting wasn't input in the right place.) It's already been fixed for the open beta build. It should now have the same DC on Normal as it does on live, but only scale up to a DC of 9 on elite.
    i urge you to reach out to other players and not just the ones who have commented in this thread. the people in this thread do not speak for the majority of the player base and its more our own opinions. some of us hardly qualify on a decision of secret door DCs, especially since players like me have been unable to see for ourselves on Lammania.

    with that said and based on what i have only read, be aware that if a player is unable to get their search high enough to open Church and the Cults secret door to begin the quest or forgets to pick up a buff or an item that requires to recall and reset, the quest will simply be skipped. i know a change was made in Wiz King shrine room runes so players with a low Int score could still be able to enter. hopefully, the DC to open these secret doors that could prevent players from continuing with a quest is kept low enough like Wiz King is.

  2. #362
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    D&D is a nice example of 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. We are given a limited number of stat points to distribute as we will. Should we choose to spread them evenly, nothing is über nor gimp. Should we choose to build up one or two stats, it comes at the price of dumping others stats. This is the balance of the game.

    The same applies to skills. We are all free to make our own decisions, build our toons as we wish. However, decisions have consequences, both good and bad. If my level 7 barb needs to equip Goggles of Minute Seeing +13 to open the first secret door in The Church and the Cult, that is the price I pay for dumping Int and Search. It is a consequence of a choice that I made. If I start the quest and realize that I forgot to bring my Search item, do I /ragequit? No, I 'go back to town' and get the right gear so I can run the quest.

    The changes being made make good sense. They are a logical result of the increasing level cap. A level 5 clicky working at all levels is no big deal when level cap is 10. Even at 16, it's not that strange. However, it was starting to look a little absurd that it worked on level 20 content, and at epic levels? Fuhgettaboutit.

    A lowbie clicky that defeats epic content is an easy button. IMHO, no one is entitled to an easy button, so there is no rational reason to rage against this change.
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  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleFooz View Post
    I know there's a post that someone was getting a DC of 15 in Church and Cult on elite. That's definitely an unintentional bug (a race condition because the DC setting wasn't input in the right place.) It's already been fixed for the open beta build. It should now have the same DC on Normal as it does on live, but only scale up to a DC of 9 on elite.
    Are you saying that Dungeon Scaling affects the secret door's DC?
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  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    D&D is a nice example of 'Jack of all trades, master of none'. We are given a limited number of stat points to distribute as we will. Should we choose to spread them evenly, nothing is über nor gimp. Should we choose to build up one or two stats, it comes at the price of dumping others stats. This is the balance of the game.

    The same applies to skills. We are all free to make our own decisions, build our toons as we wish. However, decisions have consequences, both good and bad. If my level 7 barb needs to equip Goggles of Minute Seeing +13 to open the first secret door in The Church and the Cult, that is the price I pay for dumping Int and Search. It is a consequence of a choice that I made. If I start the quest and realize that I forgot to bring my Search item, do I /ragequit? No, I 'go back to town' and get the right gear so I can run the quest.

    The changes being made make good sense. They are a logical result of the increasing level cap. A level 5 clicky working at all levels is no big deal when level cap is 10. Even at 16, it's not that strange. However, it was starting to look a little absurd that it worked on level 20 content, and at epic levels? Fuhgettaboutit.

    A lowbie clicky that defeats epic content is an easy button. IMHO, no one is entitled to an easy button, so there is no rational reason to rage against this change.
    The problem is that it's not going to be epic content that gets messed up here.

    Some examples of non-optional secret doors
    The grotto
    The collaborator
    The church and the cult
    Inferno of the Damned
    Mindsunder

    Now your claim is that skill points are a choice, but they're really not, if you do not max the skill points for the skills that you are planning on using you will fail most skill checks for that skill at level on elite, especially on higher levels. So if you needed to put points into search now that is 2 more int you will have to come up with.

    So lets say that that will just hurt to badly and imo gimp my build so now I can't get the secret doors. For the most part I don't care as most are for optionals and unless they up optional xp by about 500% on 99% of them I will ignore them no matter what. However the above quests have secret doors that aren't optional, so if my clicky doesn't get them, I will no longer run the quest unless I know someone that is running a rogue/arti trapping build. (No I won't spend 30mins trying to get a trapper in an lfm I'm here to play not to wait, my lfms all read ip) This means that all these quests are now dead content that will no longer be ran by me and probably several others.

    Making content into dead content is imo never something that would be desirable to do.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    What is the proper amount of "entitlement" someone should have who paid real money for a video game dungeon? I don't know but I feel I should be able to at least play and complete what I paid for.

    To Purplefooz - if it's votes you're taking I say lower the DC. If someone wants to play a Halfling Barbarian & nobody will join them, why get in their way of fun? They're running with a dumped Int & the secret door goggles no longer work?
    And you can.

    You can play what you pay for on Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Epic Normal, Epic Hard and Epic Elite.

    What setting you choose will determine the DC checks of your skills. If your skills are not up to par for the higher difficulties you can get a party with the skills or choose a lower setting.

    What your not 'entitled' to by the act of paying for content is the assumption that you will be able to complete everything on every difficulty.

    If that Halfling INT dump Barbarian is not smart enough to be able to find secret doors he needs to either get smarter or take some training in the proper skills. That or group with people that can cover the Barbarians weakness.

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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The problem is that it's not going to be epic content that gets messed up here.

    Some examples of non-optional secret doors
    The grotto Dev says DC is -5
    The collaborator Lever is available, so Search is optional
    The church and the cult Already addressed - Minute Seeing +13 item lets even my dummy barb in
    Inferno of the Damned
    Mindsunder
    Now your claim is that skill points are a choice, but they're really not, if you do not max the skill points for the skills that you are planning on using you will fail most skill checks for that skill at level on elite, especially on higher levels. So if you needed to put points into search now that is 2 more int you will have to come up with.

    So lets say that that will just hurt to badly and imo gimp my build so now I can't get the secret doors. For the most part I don't care as most are for optionals and unless they up optional xp by about 500% on 99% of them I will ignore them no matter what. However the above quests have secret doors that aren't optional, so if my clicky doesn't get them, I will no longer run the quest unless I know someone that is running a rogue/arti trapping build. (No I won't spend 30mins trying to get a trapper in an lfm I'm here to play not to wait, my lfms all read ip) This means that all these quests are now dead content that will no longer be ran by me and probably several others.

    Making content into dead content is imo never something that would be desirable to do.
    So you may need to downgrade your toon from Superman to Wonder Woman; you're still a member of the JLA.
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  7. #367
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    So you may need to downgrade your toon from Superman to Wonder Woman; you're still a member of the JLA.
    The problem for turbine is I won't downgrade I just won't run that content. I don't think I'll be alone in it either. When enough people do this it makes it where the packs don't get ran and pugs for it don't fill, new people then get recommended not to buy the pack, and Turbine makes less money.
    (also I'm cynical and don't believe turbine on numbers till they're on live)
    Oh and screw Superman, wonder woman, and the whole JLA, I'm Iron Man. =P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    The problem for turbine is I won't downgrade I just won't run that content. I don't think I'll be alone in it either. When enough people do this it makes it where the packs don't get ran and pugs for it don't fill, new people then get recommended not to buy the pack, and Turbine makes less money.
    (also I'm cynical and don't believe turbine on numbers till they're on live)
    Oh and screw Superman, wonder woman, and the whole JLA, I'm Iron Man. =P
    Iron Man?

    No wonder you're gimp.

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  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Iron Man?

    No wonder you're gimp.

    Black Widow FTW
    lol

  10. #370
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    *sigh*
    Back to topic.

    I suppose I could level up a low-Int barb to 7 on Lam, and then test the door in The Church and the Cult, but I already know the result. I doubt that this part of the re-vamp is going to be as problematic as some people fear.
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  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    -stuff-
    You've attacked two people. You've called me a liar and a troll for inferring - which is in itself an inference.
    Inference is not trolling. It is deriving a conclusion from given information.

    I've considered adding more, but I've decided against it - to do so would be to incite you pointlessly.

  12. #372
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    I paid for the content on the basis of the rules then available, which meant I could run the content behind those secret doors. Can I please have a refund for the bait and switch we're doing this time?

    Anyway, more seriously: Why is getting people to run LESS of your available content a good idea? I don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Based off your earlier post, I inferred the exact same as EllisDee37.

    So, please: Tell me why I should need a party. I enjoy working by myself a lot of the time. I get that teamwork is good for some. If it works for you, cool. Don't try and force it on me though.

    Aside from that point, you have the obvious lack of LFM's. I could lead one, wait 10 minutes for it to fill - or I can just do it. Preferably with a friend, but if I want a quest done, it gets done.

    So yes; your post is against soloers, it attacks them by insinuating that "join[ing] a party" is the logical and normal thing to do, thus discrediting soloers. What are we meant to infer from your earlier post?
    First of all, I have nothing against wanting to do it solo so as not to have to wait for a group and see how good they are etc. The grouping lacking is a problem thats not going to be solved easily.

    But really, if you want to solo it, you still can. See it as a fun challenge, something that will be more interesting to tackle than just another run of a TR life to get onward. Its like those quests that "cannot be done solo" because of levers etc. They weren't solo-able until someone took up that challenge and found a way to do it (summons, hirelings, charms, whatever goes).

    For now, you might need to wait for a party. Or use a potion/spell/craft an item to be able to solo it, or even go as far as change your build (that would likely be the least preferred way for something like search).

  14. #374
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    Default Who wants "no-fail" questing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    Right. I would need a search item to begin Church and the Cult above level. That's with a 12 Int giving me a 4 search that is a cross class skill with no buffs. At level I would have a lower search.

    I don't know how else to explain it. Dcs for secret doors that require progression should remain no fail. Dcs for optional secret doors can be whatever but search skill is only beneficial to trappers. If it wasn't for traps there wouldn't be enough interest to invest in search. Search does nothing for most other builds. At least spot has multiple usefulness. If all search is going to do for everyone else is detect secret doors and provide nothing else beneficial, than its a wasted skill to invest in and I'll put those points into something else.
    I still do not get your point. In essence, what you are saying is that Turbine should make the quests finish-able for everyone. If you think that way, why wouldn't players who like a trap monkey ask for bosses that can be killed No fail using search, spot, hide etc? Or DC casters requesting No fail saves (edit - that would be 100% fail saves, meaning NO-Fail spells) from bosses? Heck, why not lower the bar even more so you don't even need to invest in a good build optimized to do the task you want it to do?

    Isn't the focus on just hitting things hard making the game more boring (because that is what you ask for when you want all other aspects to become no fail and super quick)?
    I am all for getting challenged, that is why I play a game. To have fun (preferably with other people) while tackling a task that is NOT easy
    Last edited by Nascoe; 08-08-2013 at 06:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    I still do not get your point. In essence, what you are saying is that Turbine should make the quests finish-able for everyone.
    Yes, every quest should be possible to do regardless of party make up.
    I should not need a rogue because of a trap - it should just take skill (or practice/build) to get past the trap. It's a bit hard to get past a door. If a quest required "Word of Balance" for some obscure reason, that would suck for all non-druids. No quest should require a class - it should just be very, very useful at times.
    Last edited by Soulfurnace; 08-08-2013 at 07:02 AM.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Yes, every quest should be possible to do regardless of party make up.
    I should not need a rogue because of a trap - it should just take skill (or practice/build) to get past the trap. It's a bit hard to get past a door. If a quest required "Word of Balance" for some obscure reason, that would suck for all non-druids. No quest should require a class - it should just be very, very useful at times.
    That is the point. Getting past a secret door takes nothing more than skill - Search skill. A +13 item is only ML 7. Tack on some buffs, and you are sitting fairly good.
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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    I still do not get your point. In essence, what you are saying is that Turbine should make the quests finish-able for everyone. If you think that way, why wouldn't players who like a trap monkey ask for bosses that can be killed No fail using search, spot, hide etc? Or DC casters requesting No fail saves (edit - that would be 100% fail saves, meaning NO-Fail spells) from bosses? Heck, why not lower the bar even more so you don't even need to invest in a good build optimized to do the task you want it to do?

    Isn't the focus on just hitting things hard making the game more boring (because that is what you ask for when you want all other aspects to become no fail and super quick)?
    I am all for getting challenged, that is why I play a game. To have fun (preferably with other people) while tackling a task that is NOT easy
    no. I don't think every quest should be automatically finish-able. my beef specifically are secret door DCs. everything else you are describing has nothing to do with this thread. I think progression in a quest should not be strapped to a skill that only 1 type of build ever invests in. secret doors that block the path to completion should be no fail to get through. the search skill is only beneficial to 1 build type and serves no purpose for any others. why should others have to invest in search for just a handful of quests like Church and the Cult? that is not challenge to me to invest in a useless skill that I would hardly use. most secret doors are optional. there aren't many things behind secret doors that would make it worth my while to put points into search and I know some others will feel the same way. if players cant get the DC high enough to pass through the door, I and some others will not bother unless we happen to be in a group with someone who actually has a good enough search skill.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    That is the point. Getting past a secret door takes nothing more than skill - Search skill. A +13 item is only ML 7. Tack on some buffs, and you are sitting fairly good.
    Aside from things that physically require more players, it should always be possible to solo. Making it gear dependant is absurdity imo. (Also, a lootgen +13 is ML 11.)

    I'm also curious as to how many doors can be found with 0 points in search and a base 8 int - purely using gear.

    Because as people have said, they'd rather just skip the content.
    At this rate, with the xp changes and this, I'm going to be running a lot less content ^^

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Because as people have said, they'd rather just skip the content.
    At this rate, with the xp changes and this, I'm going to be running a lot less content ^^
    Which seems an odd way for a game company to go - to make changes that cause a sizeable number of players to run LESS of their content.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Aside from things that physically require more players, it should always be possible to solo. Making it gear dependant is absurdity imo. (Also, a lootgen +13 is ML 11.)

    I'm also curious as to how many doors can be found with 0 points in search and a base 8 int - purely using gear.

    Because as people have said, they'd rather just skip the content.
    At this rate, with the xp changes and this, I'm going to be running a lot less content ^^
    My error. ML 7 goggles are +11. Still plenty to open secret door in The Church and the Cult. Gotta <3 racial things.
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