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  1. #1
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    Default Should quests be worth running based on their XP alone?

    Title spells it out pretty well...

    Some quests seem to have diminished XP rewards based on the idea that the loot will draw people in.

    As vale clearly illustrates, having loot people want only encourages CAP groups of running it. Making the XP the quest may or may not give out drop to 0 since the massive over level group farming the loot.

    So, quests that drop desirable loot are skipped due to the low(ish) XP, and difficulty, out leveled, and subsequently farmed on "easy mode" to ensure loot is gained.

    Quests that drop massive XP are farmed, and solo farmed at that to maximize character gain in the race back to 20+. Any loot contained will be picked up at cap or way over quest level to ensure the next trip to 20 you have the BEST items for the level.

    The result is people racing to cap skip MANY/MOST quests because the XP is what we're after, not the loot. The loot quests are saved till we can farm them, and we don't group them unless 100% needed.

    Is there a mechanic to be added to 'push' or 'favor' grouping while not gutting the current play styles?

    1) XP bonus based on "player" membership? +5% for 2 man group +10% for 4 player group + 15% for FULL group.
    2) Increase the XP in some quests that are under played to encourage play. (Even if they have good loot.)
    3) Start selling rouges for plat sub 20. (You already sell 21 level rogues) Or modify elite traps to not be a pass/fail condition of epic quests.


    The current group incentives are just more rolls at loot. Who cares... if the current method is cap farm for loot.
    The current group requirements are simply have a trapper for certain quests, or just skip them.
    The current run this quest incentives seems to be loot + XP. But loot is irrelevant because we'll bypass it and farm it capped out when it is EASY to get for the next life.

  2. #2

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    I think you're actually looking for two things, and I think it might be clearer to discuss them independently, with separate proposals.

    (A) Increase incentive to run diverse content

    You know, I think things have actually gotten pretty good on this front. Between Bravery Bonus and Tome of Learning bonuses, it's actually rare that I run the same content more than twice on the same character. Sure, I might get a bit more by repeating a particular high-yield quest for a few levels, but it's no longer such a huge difference that it's worth the boredom to me! Over the past year, I *have* been running more of the "B-side" quests again, and have probably enjoyed the game a bit more as a result. I'm only a sample size of one, but Turbine's shifted the needle at least a little in the right direction, here.

    (B) Increase incentive to group

    There's a lot of threads about this already, but it bears repeating: when Turbine added Dungeon Scaling, they very deliberately shifted away from incentive for group play. I don't know if adding an XP bonus would help; in fact, it's something that might even deter me further from grouping! The worst part of PuGs, from my perspective, is getting into one that's determined to wait for a full group before starting! Ugh -- we've got 4, that's more than enough; let's just go already. The problem isn't that the quests are a *little* faster when soloing; it's that there aren't 15-30 minute gaps in between each quest I run. +15% isn't going to cut it; but on the flip side, I don't think you could go much higher than that without making it "too high" for guild groups that run together a lot.

    Here's another take on it: make starting a quest and leaving it open for people to join more appealing. First off, take a big chunk *out* of the late entry penalties. Right now, a quest that's been in-progress for 20 minutes == Nope. Maybe change from the current -50%/-80% to -20%/-50%? That would make me much more likely to scan for In-Progress.

    Next, hit the other side: incent party leaders to use the "Public LFM" functionality they introduced a few updates back. (This is where you can set your quest to automatically allow others to join on entry.) On a public LFM quest, give a bonus to existing players in the party for each public-LFM participant who joins after the original. So, if the bonus was, say, 5% per player, a leader who started soloing a quest with a public LFM might get +25% if their party filled before completion. The fourth person to join might still be up for +10% if two players join after them. (This has the nice side-effect of incenting someone to be the second or third add to an already-started quest.)

    If this system of incentives worked, wait times might go way down as more people "just start going" with a public LFM, and people like me might do much more active party-hopping. I'd join quests in-progress, complete, and then drop and look for the next in-progress quest to join. Or start my own if there wasn't anything level-appropriate!

    This isn't completely thought-out -- you'd need some wrinkle in place to keep already-formed groups from exploiting it by breaking and reforming. But it's an interesting brainstorming idea I had, so I figured I'd throw it out there and see if it sparked any others.
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  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    Title spells it out pretty well...

    Some quests seem to have diminished XP rewards based on the idea that the loot will draw people in.

    As vale clearly illustrates, having loot people want only encourages CAP groups of running it. Making the XP the quest may or may not give out drop to 0 since the massive over level group farming the loot.

    So, quests that drop desirable loot are skipped due to the low(ish) XP, and difficulty, out leveled, and subsequently farmed on "easy mode" to ensure loot is gained.

    Quests that drop massive XP are farmed, and solo farmed at that to maximize character gain in the race back to 20+. Any loot contained will be picked up at cap or way over quest level to ensure the next trip to 20 you have the BEST items for the level.

    The result is people racing to cap skip MANY/MOST quests because the XP is what we're after, not the loot. The loot quests are saved till we can farm them, and we don't group them unless 100% needed.

    Is there a mechanic to be added to 'push' or 'favor' grouping while not gutting the current play styles?

    1) XP bonus based on "player" membership? +5% for 2 man group +10% for 4 player group + 15% for FULL group.
    2) Increase the XP in some quests that are under played to encourage play. (Even if they have good loot.)
    3) Start selling rouges for plat sub 20. (You already sell 21 level rogues) Or modify elite traps to not be a pass/fail condition of epic quests.


    The current group incentives are just more rolls at loot. Who cares... if the current method is cap farm for loot.
    The current group requirements are simply have a trapper for certain quests, or just skip them.
    The current run this quest incentives seems to be loot + XP. But loot is irrelevant because we'll bypass it and farm it capped out when it is EASY to get for the next life.
    I think that in an ideal world, I'd like the xp awarded to be looked at on a very regular basis and adjustments made perhaps every update. Yes, that would mean that some quests would be lowered, but others would hopefully be raised as well. I really don't trust Turbine to not muck this up somehow so it's probably just a pipe dream.

    Adding xp based on group size will do nothing to promote grouping and everything to promote multiboxing. I agree that promoting grouping is a good thing, but I don't think adding more xp is a way to do that.

    As mentioned above, there are a great many quests that could very easily have their xp raised and this is something Turbine should be looking to adjust regularly. Hold for Reinforcements is so bad, it's actually a running joke whenever this topic is brought up.

    I don't think there is really a market for rouges, even sub level 20, but if Turbine were to sell rogues for plat I don't think it would hurt the game. Vet players don't wait around for rogues and new players would have a way to complete quests without waiting. Personally, if I find I really need a rogue, I drop a few AS to just get it done. Typically I get one rogue hire for the 2 quests in the Sharn series as I find it makes them easier on elite, but nothing else in my TR route after that is something I find a rogue necessary for. That's just me though.

    Overall, I don't think that every quest absolutely has to have competitive xp. Some can be run for fun or loot or flagging or challenge. I do think that the new proposed daily quest xp bonus sounds promising for promoting underplayed quests and I'll see what devs have in store there.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 06-21-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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  4. #4

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    Oh, I should point out that I strongly agree that seldom-run quests should get an XP boost. This should be easy. I'm sure Turbine's got the data. Run a report of "average number of runs by level-appropriate players" for each quest. Any quest that gets run less than 1/10 as often as the average quest, raise XP by 10%. Repeat as necessary.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    while leveling a character to cap, loot is usually 2nd to gaining xp. if a player happens to loot something he/she would want while leveling, than its bonus and 1 less quest to farm later when at a much higher level to make it easier to farm since they will be playing a stronger character. its pretty much the same thing for favor.

    loot should draw people into running a quest, especially if the xp is lacking, but more players are more concerned about leveling. some players don't really care a lot or want to farm lower level loot that will only benefit them while leveling a character, like a TR. the higher level loot is what gets farmed for more and draws more players to run quests, but gaining xp is still more priority to them. there is very little lower level loot that is used in upper levels.

    what i have always done with my first life characters is level to 20 and go back to farm loot that can be made epic i want for that character, certain raid loot to use when i TR that character and craft all the GS that character needs before i actually TR. it just made leveling a little easier that way and i had to worry about was leveling since i had all the loot for that character i wanted.

    the higher the levels we go, the more xp we need to level and for twists, the more new shinies get released every few months, the more running quests for loot become a back burner project. there is supposed to be a change in xp so maybe those less played quests will be run more often and quests with low xp, but good loot will be run at level more often.

  6. #6
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    XP really is the driving force in the game. I can tell that the visual majority of players feel this way as well, based on the LFM panel.
    How many Bravery Bonus LFM's do you see as opposed to "just having fun running it on normal?"
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cforce View Post
    There's a lot of threads about this already, but it bears repeating: when Turbine added Dungeon Scaling, they very deliberately shifted away from incentive for group play.
    ^This.

    IMO, Elite quests should NOT scale at all. Like raids. That alone would be enough incentive to group more.

    If you want to solo, normal still scales. Hard scales, but less. If you want elite bravery, you get a group, or face the challenge.
    Last edited by nibel; 06-21-2013 at 04:13 PM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    ^This.

    IMO, Elite quests should NOT scale at all. Like raids. That alone would be enough incentive to group more.

    If you want to solo, normal still scales. Hard scales, but less. If you want elite bravery, you get a group, or face the challenge.
    Agreed!!!!!

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  9. #9
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    Well it's been noted that a large portion of the 17-19 quests aren't run very much. In fact there are several quests at every level that are just devoid of groups, or being run at all.

    Why don't people run them?

    They aren't worth the time/effort. As it's been noted, loot can't draw people to do quests at level, because it's just so much easier to overpower the quest for the loot then to try and run it when the loot is valid.


    Just giving the "worst" quests a mild bump would spawn more people running those quests...If the quests are "hard" enough, or require special dynamics (4 players on pressure plates) then the added XP certainly forms more groups!

    But if the quest just 'sucks' more XP is just going to get people going into it solo, and getting thru it for the big-xp at the end.

    The bravery bonus already gets people to do more variety of quest. I'm sure that helped a lot... but it probably doesn't promote grouping as much as it could.

    I do find myself avoiding quests with horrible traps, I don't LFG to achieve them, I just skip them. If you have 20 traps and on elite the traps do too much damage... it's just getting skipped.... Plane and simple. If I know I'm doing a TR life, I'll probably have 2 levels of rogue in there, so traps are null and void, and I can still TR to my next life. But, what a silly mechanic. Yeah take to junk levels to open those quests, and you just keep soloing everything, because you can do everything.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    ^This.

    IMO, Elite quests should NOT scale at all. Like raids. That alone would be enough incentive to group more.

    If you want to solo, normal still scales. Hard scales, but less. If you want elite bravery, you get a group, or face the challenge.
    Been saying this since shortly after the scaling mechanic was introduced. IMO, N/H/E was plenty fine scaling on it's own. Clearly, there must be some good money in catering to soloists; look at what they did to Tor: no more timing on the levers, just do one side then the other. No more split group and hold position in the boxes, just break two squishy pillars and say "boo!" to an even squishier (perhaps the squishiest in game) boss.

    And quests that (almost) require grouping like Xoian Cipher or the Necro 1/2/3 flags are often whined about in these very forums/ skipped by many of the TR junkies.

    I honestly don't know what Turbine could possibly do to incentivize grouping via pugging, especially that wouldn't just be abused by multi-boxers & static guild/channel crowds that already group but don't pug. However, if there were an appropriate solution, I'm quite certain that Turbine would not implement it as, again, they've gone out of there way already to incentivize soloing.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by 350zguy View Post
    [...] because you can do everything.
    I agree that there should be quests that you cannot do everything.

    Make traps at random locations and has random saves; so that some of them fortitude and some of them will based.

    They really should make monster type spawns random and not scaling on elite so that people cannot solo easily on elite.

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  12. #12
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    Apologies to the OP, I completely failed to address your original premise. Though I suspect others have covered already my own insights to that.

    Quests should absolutely be worth running based on xp alone. Loot can be a nice incentive, but once you have it the incentive's gone. Those of us who play with friends get our fun and comradery by the company we keep as much as from the quest it's self. Flagging as an incentive to run poor xp quests is a non-issue when you can "red letter" it. Time (xp/min) IMO should be irrelevant as players who want to will always find a way to maximize that. Difficulty, variety of challenges faced, and quest level should all be determining factors of how a quest pays out it's xp; and it should always be worth while.

    I highly suspect the "daily boost to under run content" idea mentioned before will be more about promoting under purchased packs than anything else. I think we're unlikely to see much f2p content there, rather a lot of Sorrow Dusk, Restless Isles, 3BC & Threnal... And maybe some Amrath thrown in.

    Turbine has all but stated that TRing is their vision of this games future. In order for that to happen, some changes need to be made - a fact they have already begun addressing by stating that they're going to "smooth out the xp curve" though exactly what that means (to them) we'll have to wait and see.

    Mostly, I think the quest xp bell curve needs to be altered into more of a progression. Why the highest xp quests are at mid-levels, then steadily declining as you get to higher levels is a mystery to me.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #13
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    Default Quests should, but they aren't

    The Pit for example. I hate it. Nasty quest. Great XP. I probably hate it because I mostly fail at soloing it, although I have.

    I have not run these quests in so long, I have no idea what the XP is.

    Dreams of Insanity?
    Faithful Departed?
    Desert Caravan?

    My dumb idea to increase LFMs.

    Give the player that put up an LFM a max of 100% XP Bonus. Initially I had 50% but that was not enough to entice me to put up an LFM.

    Give bonus if one or more players in the group is guildless. Give bonus if it is six different guild players or guildless players.

    Yes, this will be completely abused but it might create more LFMs. I would consider putting up LFMs, but probably not as I am pretty much set in my ways now.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Sadly, most quests are boring slogs at this point. While it would be nice to play quests just for the "fun" of it, but the reality is the way the game has been designed XP is the #1 driving factor for which quests are run followed very closely by loot awards. (though this order could be debated if you dont TR)

    I would love to see every quest in the game "Auto Leveled" to be the "Appropriate" difficulty no matter what level you choose to do it and have its XP award scaled accordingly. I would then run the quests I ENJOY running and only those quests, rather then the quests I HAVE to run because they give the best XP.

  15. #15
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNameIwasntB4 View Post
    Give the player that put up an LFM a max of 100% XP Bonus. Initially I had 50% but that was not enough to entice me to put up an LFM.

    Give bonus if one or more players in the group is guildless. Give bonus if it is six different guild players or guildless players.
    The first idea here has some potential. There is nothing stopping the player from just declining everyone and running solo for the bonus. That's not exactly a positive community mechanic.

    The second idea is a dead end. Making an incentive to bump your own guildies from a group for people that are guildless, or making an incentive for guildies to drop guild for TR'ing is very poorly thought out. Instead of hoping for 5 random pugs to all be of differing groups, a player will just make extra accounts that are all unguilded and group with 5 ghost players. The idea might sound good in theory, but is far too easily broken for player benefit. Combining the two ideas just has people hitting their own LFM with these 5 ghosts increasing their xp by a massive amount without any "hassle" of bringing other real people into the group.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNameIwasntB4 View Post
    The Pit for example. I hate it. Nasty quest. Great XP. I probably hate it because I mostly fail at soloing it, although I have.

    I have not run these quests in so long, I have no idea what the XP is.

    Dreams of Insanity?
    Faithful Departed?
    Desert Caravan?

    My dumb idea to increase LFMs.

    Give the player that put up an LFM a max of 100% XP Bonus. Initially I had 50% but that was not enough to entice me to put up an LFM.

    Give bonus if one or more players in the group is guildless. Give bonus if it is six different guild players or guildless players.

    Yes, this will be completely abused but it might create more LFMs. I would consider putting up LFMs, but probably not as I am pretty much set in my ways now.
    Dreams of insanity is great xp quest, I always run it e/h/n, you get 10k xp for opts only, if your party can split that makes it even better.
    Faithful departed isnt so good.
    Desert Caravan is also great xp.

  17. #17
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    ^This.

    IMO, Elite quests should NOT scale at all. Like raids. That alone would be enough incentive to group more.

    If you want to solo, normal still scales. Hard scales, but less. If you want elite bravery, you get a group, or face the challenge.
    I think you overestimate the challenge of elite difficulty quests. Scaling or no, they will be solo'd. For a multi-life TR with some good gear, elite is about as challenging as normal for the first-timers.

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  18. #18
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    All quests are worth running when one is having fun and enjoying the game. At least, for me.
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  19. #19
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default @OP to reply on the title

    I am of the strong opinion (vocalized from time to time in several postings on this forum) that some quest series need a lot of love and some XP rework. namely all of Shavarath and all the Eveningstar quests on heroic. It is a pain in the back to run for lv. 19-20 even when banked. It is even more painful to run some Shavarath quest for about one hour on elite only to pull a meagre 12k XP... VON 3 (lv 9!!!) gives about 25k on streak w/o pots. And most quests lv. 17-18 give about 20k on streak. DO NOT NERF OTHER QUESTS XP! Give some more XP to the heroic druids chain, to Eveningstar quests and to Shavarath. About 50 - 100% would do quite nicely.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    I am of the strong opinion (vocalized from time to time in several postings on this forum) that some quest series need a lot of love and some XP rework. namely all of Shavarath and all the Eveningstar quests on heroic. It is a pain in the back to run for lv. 19-20 even when banked. It is even more painful to run some Shavarath quest for about one hour on elite only to pull a meagre 12k XP... VON 3 (lv 9!!!) gives about 25k on streak w/o pots. And most quests lv. 17-18 give about 20k on streak. DO NOT NERF OTHER QUESTS XP! Give some more XP to the heroic druids chain, to Eveningstar quests and to Shavarath. About 50 - 100% would do quite nicely.
    Same goes for cannith quests, which give around 12k with tome of learning and bb.

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