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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Oh, I see you are a "class here". If you're going to be battling "monsters", you should find a way to keep yourself alive. As a "Class Here", you have the following options of keeping yourself (and others!) alive: Potions, (add in whatever applies to said class here).
    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I was serious when I said I've run in to quite a few rangers/paladins/bards and even clerics/fvs's that didn't realize they could use wands, how to get them, etc. A tutorial that explains all the options they have for their character class would be outstanding.

    While they're at it...can they add it so TR's don't have to run the grotto? :P The Grotto needs more depth but it certainly doesn't need to be there after you've already run to 20.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  2. #62
    Community Member dougnugget's Avatar
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    What Turbine could do: give new characters a stack on 100 CLW potions after the introductory quest. By the time a new player has used them, they should have respect for them and also the means to buy more.

    Also - make pregen paths that don't suck.

    What we can do: a lot of what's been said already. But also - at lower levels, damage mitigation really helps reduce the need for healing. So if you have any crafting capabilities, a stack of unbound Invulnerability shards could go a long way to helping new players, without taking up a stack of your inventory space or costing a great deal of resource.

  3. #63

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    May I suggest that new F2P players should have all classes greyed out except cleric.

    For new VIP players, all classes should greyed out except cleric, favored soul, druid and warforged casters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    at low levels even a Cleric has trouble keeping other people alive. if you're a fighter/ranger/pally/rogue/etc . . . who's still relying on CSW pots that's not an option.

    What allows my fighter to self-hjeal for 99% of level 1-25? I have a metric ton of cash.[...]
    No melee classes allowed until their second life. By the time they get there they have enough plat and experience with the game.

    If new players insisted on playing melee, then a required set of tutorial quests should be built upon how to wand heal, UMD characters, HELF characters with cleric or favored soul Dilettante, halfling dragonmarkers, etc.

    With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    [...]
    No melee classes allowed until their second life. By the time they get there they have enough plat and experience with the game.
    The reason I said this is because if they have cleric past life they can take the active feat: Past Life: Initiate of the Faith Prereq: Past Life: Cleric to self heal themselves and they are more healing conscious and also learn about how tough it is to be framed as a hjealer.

    With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

  5. #65
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    You know, that DOES bring up a thought..

    If the beginner quests gave you proper healing advice, it could help quite a bit.
    Maybe having a small addition to the grotto where you have to buy and consume a heal potion/wand would be a good idea.
    Kind of how they have the crafting quest that gives you the materials and walks you through the process of how to cannith craft?

    Education is key here. The tooltip you get as a new build "You are low on health! (add in whatever that text is, I barely read it anymore after years of making characters)" could be expanded upon and branched out.

    Like:

    Oh, I see you are a "class here". If you're going to be battling "monsters", you should find a way to keep yourself alive. As a "Class Here", you have the following options of keeping yourself (and others!) alive: Potions, (add in whatever applies to said class here).
    You know this brings me a thought as well. The last time I was playing I wasn't seeing any new clerics at low levels. You would think as new players joined you would see a regular portion of them playing "healers" but they seem just as hard to find as at any other point or am I just imagining this.

  6. #66
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I don't disagree with your suggestion here but at the same time, if the point we're at is saying that being on a second (or greater) life, or funding a lower level character by a higher level one for pots and wands is a necessary or normal, expected part of "playing correctly", we are dealing with an issue much wider than whether or not individual players are playing correctly.

    What I dislike from many of the vets here in the forum is the persistent mentality because they can scarcely remember running content prior to being on multiple reincarnations with access to optimal gear and endless funds, any challenge or difficulty for any class, build or group in that content is individual player deficiency.
    Having a simple tutorial for learning what options are available based on your chosen class has nothing to do with funding, TR'ing, multiple alts or whatever else. Yes, this is much easier once you have an established character that can pass down plat, but you still need to learn that potions, wands, scrolls, etc actually exist. This is the key point I was trying to address.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  7. #67
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    You know this brings me a thought as well. The last time I was playing I wasn't seeing any new clerics at low levels. You would think as new players joined you would see a regular portion of them playing "healers" but they seem just as hard to find as at any other point or am I just imagining this.
    Too many WOWTards from other MMO's expecting a "trinity," you might start one as a new player but you'll abandon the idea quickly.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Having a simple tutorial for learning what options are available based on your chosen class has nothing to do with funding, TR'ing, multiple alts or whatever else. Yes, this is much easier once you have an established character that can pass down plat, but you still need to learn that potions, wands, scrolls, etc actually exist. This is the key point I was trying to address.
    Exactly. I would add that in the tutorial they should tell you where you can buy these things! Like a message that gives the shop name in House J that sells wands and the name of the place that sells pots.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  9. #69
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Having a simple tutorial for learning what options are available based on your chosen class has nothing to do with funding, TR'ing, multiple alts or whatever else. Yes, this is much easier once you have an established character that can pass down plat, but you still need to learn that potions, wands, scrolls, etc actually exist. This is the key point I was trying to address.
    Yep. Might as well throw some funding in there with the tutorials as well. New players start off with nothing and that is a major hindrance that is pointed to correctly over and over. You can't stay alive with pots from breakables and chest loot. Try to pot heal yourself with the plat you get in Korthos buying pots from the pot vendor and you will run out before you leave the island. The introduction quest needs to be more involved about consumables and hirelings.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Hi Welcome to the game. You see in D&D divines are good for more than heal botting
    Well this should be an easy debate for you to win. What, other than healing, are divines better at than any other class?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Lol I'm not getting into this argument again. I did not say that divines won't heal and if you choose to gimp a build of any class that can heal by purposefully choosing not to do so that is on you. I think that is the gist of it. If you can build healing into your toon then, sure, be proud that that you don't need a divnve in your group go ahead and get angry about it while you're at it. That makes lots of sense. At least in your anger at divines you learned to put healing in your build plan. Feel free to make up whatever false statement you want out of thin air from anyone posting and make an angry attack at them for your imagined and self created slight. Who can stop you from wanting to ignore a valuable part of so many classes and dump it onto someone else? Cetainly not I.
    There is no argument to be had. The argument is over. Divines are the weakest class in DDO. What do you call a divine in endgame? A healbot. What isn't needed in endgame? A healbot. They are worthless.

    There is no anger at divines, and this wasn't started by me and others. Divines one day up and decided that they were free to play their toons badly, purposely gimping themselves and not playing optimally with the party. I treat this attitude the same way I do with all players that think they can pike or bring their badly designed/played toons into a serious group where I expect all people to contribute to the best of their ability. I would never build a badly designed toon and bring it into a party and expect people to just accept me. That isn't right. That same spot could be taken up by a serious player. And I expect the same from everyone else.

  12. #72
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There is no argument to be had. The argument is over. Divines are the weakest class in DDO. What do you call a divine in endgame? A healbot. What isn't needed in endgame? A healbot. They are worthless.

    There is no anger at divines, and this wasn't started by me and others. Divines one day up and decided that they were free to play their toons badly, purposely gimping themselves and not playing optimally with the party. I treat this attitude the same way I do with all players that think they can pike or bring their badly designed/played toons into a serious group where I expect all people to contribute to the best of their ability. I would never build a badly designed toon and bring it into a party and expect people to just accept me. That isn't right. That same spot could be taken up by a serious player. And I expect the same from everyone else.
    Oh come on, 99% of this game isn't hard enough to require everyone to be optimal. And you're "Divines one day up and decided that they were free to play their toons badly" statement is nonsense as pre-U16 offensive-casting divines were very strong.

  13. #73
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There is no argument to be had. The argument is over. Divines are the weakest class in DDO. What do you call a divine in endgame? A healbot. What isn't needed in endgame? A healbot. They are worthless.

    There is no anger at divines, and this wasn't started by me and others. Divines one day up and decided that they were free to play their toons badly, purposely gimping themselves and not playing optimally with the party. I treat this attitude the same way I do with all players that think they can pike or bring their badly designed/played toons into a serious group where I expect all people to contribute to the best of their ability. I would never build a badly designed toon and bring it into a party and expect people to just accept me. That isn't right. That same spot could be taken up by a serious player. And I expect the same from everyone else.
    I heal on a favored soul, cleric, ranger, bard, rogue, and paladin. I don't have artificer but I don't doubt I would heal on one. I don't currently play a wizard but I has a warforged and betting that I could work in umd on any wizard or sorc. Did the light monk for a short while. Made my barb for damage absorbtion and slow death and don't play a fighter but would probably do the same. Please feel free to quote to me where in my originally quoted post any portion where I said divines should not heal or don't that is outside of your imagination.

    If you don't need divines in your group exclude them. I promise I don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Well this should be an easy debate for you to win. What, other than healing, are divines better at than any other class?
    This isn't anything worthy of debating. It is an attempt to attack divine players(not even being discussed). Save it for the game where you help assure that the classes that you don't need will be sure not to join your parties.

  14. #74
    Community Member Dekragh's Avatar
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    My very first /rant on



    Like someone hinted in the first page,BYOH,its meaning,has changed from "be a somewhat competent,smart player,that,if needed can heal himself,be it with low level spells,wands,scrolls or potions,and that doesnt run in face first into the 20 mobs without anyone else,dies then blames the others"

    to

    "you're expected to be uber,and even if i can,i WONT heal you,because its BYOH"

    i think,that this whole byoh thing started,because of ******bags players,that thought of healers,has hirelings with a brain,and that,they should be able to keep them alive no matter WHAT,because they,are,healers,this type of mentality where just because there is a healer in the group,everyone else has a free pass to just go in and take everything on with bare fists because the cleric/fvs will keep them alive didnt please the cleric/fvs players and rightly so.So the clerics/fvs started forming groups with BYOH,so that those type of players,would be discouraged to join these groups,but has is human nature,someone interpreted this very wrongly,and twisted it.Thus the "new" BYOH groups where born,and they are,sadly the norm today.

    I Agree with what someone said that its this 90% of the community,which is in my opinion,awfull,that are most likely driving away new players,because new players either become "infected" and join the ranks of ******bags has they are the majority,therefore needed to complete raids,and higher diff quests,or they quit.Or,if BY SOME MIRACLE,they find the non ******bags and are taken in by them,learn to avoid pugs,group only with those they know,and just come to terms with it and realise they wont be able to do non of the demanding quests and raids,unless they want to join a group of Dbags.

    BYOH as it is today is the accomplishment,of a child that had terrible parents.(child being the "healers" and parents being actually alot of the community back then) BYOH and the "everyone HAS TO SELF HEAL OR GIMPED" mentality,is,and rightly so,the backlash of people taking clerics and fvs for granted,and treating them poorly.

    I find it funny how alot of these BYOH praise the diversity,in this game,since they themselves,do all they can to make it has non diverse has possible.

    DDO,was a game that wanted not to be the best out there,but to be different,diverse,unique,and people like so many here,transformed it into just another MMO with DnD slaped in for flavour (devs didnt help <.<)

    Many of you praise it for its customization,yet you all flock like sheep,to the same "type"
    of build,and call,others that dont follow your standards,noobs,gimped,etc.

    Groups,dont feel like,different players,playing together to through teamwork and communication complete a certain quest/raid

    Groups,feel like a bunch of strangers,that just try to complete the quest has fast has possible whilst not talking to anyone,with there eyes set on the end of the quest,its all about finishing first and has fast has possible,oposed to what,in my opinion,was to be intended to enjoy the ride.

    Grouping feels like an inter racial race to the end rather then people banding together to help each other out and complete a hard quest/raid.

    just my 2cents

    /rant off

  15. #75
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There is no argument to be had. The argument is over. Divines are the weakest class in DDO. What do you call a divine in endgame? A healbot. What isn't needed in endgame? A healbot. They are worthless.

    There is no anger at divines, and this wasn't started by me and others. Divines one day up and decided that they were free to play their toons badly, purposely gimping themselves and not playing optimally with the party. I treat this attitude the same way I do with all players that think they can pike or bring their badly designed/played toons into a serious group where I expect all people to contribute to the best of their ability. I would never build a badly designed toon and bring it into a party and expect people to just accept me. That isn't right. That same spot could be taken up by a serious player. And I expect the same from everyone else.
    insanely high expectations or just never grouped with an experienced divine?

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Having a simple tutorial for learning what options are available based on your chosen class has nothing to do with funding, TR'ing, multiple alts or whatever else. Yes, this is much easier once you have an established character that can pass down plat, but you still need to learn that potions, wands, scrolls, etc actually exist. This is the key point I was trying to address.
    Agreed. New players learn about the existence of healing potions by breaking barrels on the way to the intro quest on Korthos. Having some barrels drop wands and scrolls would also let the new player know about these items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Yep. Might as well throw some funding in there with the tutorials as well. New players start off with nothing and that is a major hindrance that is pointed to correctly over and over. You can't stay alive with pots from breakables and chest loot. Try to pot heal yourself with the plat you get in Korthos buying pots from the pot vendor and you will run out before you leave the island. The introduction quest needs to be more involved about consumables and hirelings.
    I disagree with giving more funding with the tutorials, from a story standpoint. I play this game for the story, not uber loot (very few of my characters have uber loot), and giving enough plat so that I wouldn't worry about healing would take away from the story, for me. You can, as my permadeath group has, heal yourself with the plat from Korthos quests. It might take a little longer to get through quests, as we are more cautious, but that is what I, and many people, find fun about this game.

  17. #77
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianG View Post
    I disagree with giving more funding with the tutorials, from a story standpoint. I play this game for the story, not uber loot (very few of my characters have uber loot), and giving enough plat so that I wouldn't worry about healing would take away from the story, for me. You can, as my permadeath group has, heal yourself with the plat from Korthos quests. It might take a little longer to get through quests, as we are more cautious, but that is what I, and many people, find fun about this game.
    i actually agree with Oratti. we start off with starter gear. that's it. i see no harm in a 25 stack of CLW starter potions.

    i remember what it was like when i first started playing. i was so broke trying to learn to play, that i went through 3 toons before i felt i was playing well enough to keep going. one toon i left dead in WW on the bridge trying for the hundredth time making his way to the quest. after he died, i started over with a new character because i had no more pots, no plat to repair and whatever gear i wore was broken. i was wearing handwraps on a rogue because i couldn't loot a chest to get a proper weapon and couldn't afford to repair my broken Korthos weapon. the first few months was rough trying to learn to play and make sure i had necessary resources and gear.

  18. #78
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    insanely high expectations or just never grouped with an experienced divine?
    Both.

    But he might be bust atm waiting for some divines to come heal his Raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  19. #79
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Ok, it may be off topic, but I'll take the bait...
    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Divines that don't heal are gimp and their spot is better filled by someone else. It's as simple as that. Now that divines have gone on strike from healing and people build their toons to be self sufficient, there's absolutely no reason to have a divine. Everything else divines can do, can be better done by another class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Hi Welcome to the game. You see in D&D divines are good for more than heal botting
    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Well this should be an easy debate for you to win. What, other than healing, are divines better at than any other class?
    It's not (or at least shouldn't be) about "being better at (something) than any other class." As you said, people are building self sufficient toons capable of doing more than just "what they're best at" (largely through class splashing I might add, and with few exceptions building in self healing inherently reduces ones' ability to do whatever their class is "best at.")

    Jalont, extend the "logic" of your question to the other classes and it quickly unravels. If one class is best at dps, are all others capable of it a waste of a party slot? If one class is best at cc, are all others capable of it a waste of a party slot? If one class is best a trapping, are all others capable of it a waste of a party slot?

    While I am of the firm personal opinion that divines should heal others, I don't think anybody should be bound by opinion. There are tons of less than optimal, not doing what they're "best at" builds out there that are fun to play and fully contributing to party success. The idea that if you're not building your class for what it's best at you're a gimp waste of a slot is pure rubbish, otherwise there would only be a finite number of builds in the game, they would be extremely cookie cutter and most of what makes DDO great wouldn't exist. If nobody needs divine healing, the divine should be building on their secondary talents, and a self healing fighter isn't doing the best dps or tanking it could be so it too is sacrificing what it's best at for the sake of developing a secondary talent.


    A well played any-class is a multi-tasker.
    •Well played melee don't just dps, they trip/stun/take agro from someone getting beat to death.
    •Well played arcanes buff/debuff/dps/cc and more, depending on flavor and specialty.
    •Well played divines don't just heal, they do a lot of what an arcane does and heal too.

    If you want to build your toon to be "best at" something, that's fine, but being one dimensional has it's own drawbacks; and nothing mandates you strictly build a toon for whatever you think it's best at, other than personal preference.

    Apologies again for following the tangental derailment.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    There is no argument to be had. The argument is over. Divines are the weakest class in DDO. What do you call a divine in endgame? A healbot. What isn't needed in endgame? A healbot. They are worthless.
    That's one of the most putstastic comments I've seen in quite a while...
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-27-2013 at 05:32 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  20. #80
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    The best way to bridge the gap is simple education. This gap is not only widened by the lack of knowledge but by the willingness of its players to actually help others - which despite some popular belief, can be done in a few minutes of time without resorting to "Re-roll GIMP"

    The first thing needed though is not answers, but the right questions.

    During one of my cleric's past lives I ran into a player playing an Elf Fighter he was around level 5, his HP were low but not because of low constitution (it was 14 base) his problem was he didn't understand the feats that were available to him. After some discussion with him I was able to help him get the right questions so that he could find the answers. Such as How does Toughness help me? Is power attack important to DPS? and how can I keep from taking so much damage?

    I also relate this to Searching some knowledge bases, sometimes it is understanding what the actual question is before you can find the answer.

    ============================
    As for me I primarily run characters that not only have strong self healing abilities but can also use those abilities to help fellow party members. BYOH has and always will mean to me having the ability to keep myself alive and being responsible for my own HP and fix my own boo boos, as well as being able to support party members that are in a pinch. Sometimes that means dropping back on my paladin to heal party members through any means I have when the damage exceeds what the party can maintain.

    As for Korthos and potions, many of these quests drop cure light potions in breakables, the problem is that to some people it seems beneath them to pick up these potions. I remember one particular run of all of the Korthos quests during an early TR Life where I actually had 30ish Starter Cure Light Potions, a couple remove curse and an assortment of 10 resists when I was done. Mind you we have ships now so the resist potions might not be worth what they use to be. But I remember having to race party members to breakables for resources and turning in collectibles to get wands, potions and other needed consumables because I didn't have 2cp to rub together - had to live with that curse until I could afford to have it removed or was cured by a kindly cleric during a stay at the bar.

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