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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default How do you bridge that BYOH gap?

    This is a big thing that stops vets from running with new players. Lots of discussion about encouraging grouping going on and this is a big part of that issue.

    I'm mostly referring to melees.

    Vets simply don't need healers in their groups for 99% of the content.

    New players do. They don't have the resources, meta-knowledge, etc . . . to be completely self-sufficient and keep up with leveling vets. Even stacks of CSW pots are too expensive to expect a new player to have.

    it's not fair for vets to wait while groups fill especially since nobody wants to heal any more. Simply put if I don't need a healer for something it's selfish of the person who does to expect me to wait.

    The only thing I do when pugging is I will allow people to summon hirelings. I know a lot of vets cringe at those but I understands it's really the only affordable method of healing for new players.

    So how do we bridge that gap?

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is a big thing that stops vets from running with new players. Lots of discussion about encouraging grouping going on and this is a big part of that issue.

    I'm mostly referring to melees.

    Vets simply don't need healers in their groups for 99% of the content.

    New players do. They don't have the resources, meta-knowledge, etc . . . to be completely self-sufficient and keep up with leveling vets. Even stacks of CSW pots are too expensive to expect a new player to have.

    it's not fair for vets to wait while groups fill especially since nobody wants to heal any more. Simply put if I don't need a healer for something it's selfish of the person who does to expect me to wait.

    The only thing I do when pugging is I will allow people to summon hirelings. I know a lot of vets cringe at those but I understands it's really the only affordable method of healing for new players.

    So how do we bridge that gap?
    1 change barbarian, rogue, and fighter in the descriptions to indicate they are challenging classes.
    2 change druid, wizard, paladin, ranger, cleric, and favored soul to indicate they are easier classes due to the ability to self heal
    3 Profit

  3. #3
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    Spread the wealth if you're on a life that can heal others. I've been playing 2+ fighter/2+ monk/9 druid lives lately and it takes relatively little to toss an unmeta'd greater vigor on guys that drop a bit. I haven't had much problem outside of the one frenzied berserker that assumed I'd heal him even while he sat there and hit supreme cleave repeatedly.

    If you can't help out other people might make sense to encourage them to back off when they're low on life. That and taking the time to explain ways their build could self heal both makes sense.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Spread the wealth if you're on a life that can heal others.
    at low levels even a Cleric has trouble keeping other people alive. if you're a fighter/ranger/pally/rogue/etc . . . who's still relying on CSW pots that's not an option.

    What allows my fighter to self-hjeal for 99% of level 1-25? I have a metric ton of cash. new players just don't have this. And no, those ridiculous P2Wing regeneration potions are a terrible suggestion, I'd have quit this game before I got off Korthos if my only self-healing option was my credit card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    I've been playing 2+ fighter/2+ monk/9 druid lives lately and it takes relatively little to toss an unmeta'd greater vigor on guys that drop a bit. I haven't had much problem outside of the one frenzied berserker that assumed I'd heal him even while he sat there and hit supreme cleave repeatedly.
    So you're playing a divine . . . that actually heals people? That's really not a melee.

    That's just natural selection. I still find it amazing people still play barbs, but that's a topic for another conversation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    If you can't help out other people might make sense to encourage them to back off when they're low on life.
    I can try to instill common sense . . . but really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    That and taking the time to explain ways their build could self heal both makes sense.
    Do the pre-built paths still suck badly?

  5. #5
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is a big thing that stops vets from running with new players. Lots of discussion about encouraging grouping going on and this is a big part of that issue.

    I'm mostly referring to melees.

    Vets simply don't need healers in their groups for 99% of the content.

    New players do. They don't have the resources, meta-knowledge, etc . . . to be completely self-sufficient and keep up with leveling vets. Even stacks of CSW pots are too expensive to expect a new player to have.

    it's not fair for vets to wait while groups fill especially since nobody wants to heal any more. Simply put if I don't need a healer for something it's selfish of the person who does to expect me to wait.

    The only thing I do when pugging is I will allow people to summon hirelings. I know a lot of vets cringe at those but I understands it's really the only affordable method of healing for new players.

    So how do we bridge that gap?
    you say vets don't need healers in 99% of content, but not fair that vets wait to fill a group for a healer?

    if vets don't need a healer for 99% of content, why are they in a group waiting for a healer? why cant they just throw up an lfm and say "IP BYOH"?

    i think you are looking at it wrong. players have a choice if they want to wait around for a healer or for the group to fill. if they are joining someone elses lfm and the party leader wants to wait for a healer, than that person can choose to stay or go. theres no "its not fair i have to wait". hires are used a lot in groups. probably about as much as there are BYOH groups with or without group players willing to throw a heal at someone in need. the only ones that really cringe at popping a hire are the ones who think their xp is precious to them. that -5% is nothing compared to all the xp boosts we have now and that -5% can be replaced with ransack or an optional or something. i think its funny that people actually worry about such a small loss. actually, its not even a loss. you get the bonus if no one dies but people get confused by it and call it a loss when someone dies because its automatically figured into the xp when you walk into the quest.

  6. #6
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    I rarely pug anymore, but when I do, I will fill to three people and if someone needs healing, allow them to bring a hire. The only reason I'm pugging is so that I'm not lonely, and I view this as a price I have to pay for not being lonely. It's really no big deal.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    When pugging I summon hirelings.
    My answer was contained in your OP. I don't summon them cause I need them, I summon them because they keep new players alive, and I'm very experienced at their mechanics, warts and all, and getting the most out of them for the group.

    Running your elite toon through a dungeon isn't really a challenge. Getting your hireling through in one piece just may be though.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    New players do. They don't have the resources, meta-knowledge, etc . . . to be completely self-sufficient and keep up with leveling vets. Even stacks of CSW pots are too expensive to expect a new player to have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So how do we bridge that gap?
    The first step would be to correctly identify the gap. It has nothing to do with healing.

    It is a knowledge gap.

    There are posts how to make tons of money before you leave the harbor.
    There are posts how to use low level crafting to make really good twink gear.
    There are posts about how be self sufficient.
    There are posts about combat mechanics, stealth, you name it....

    The majority of the players see none of them.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    you say vets don't need healers in 99% of content, but not fair that vets wait to fill a group for a healer?
    Correct.

    if vets don't need a healer for 99% of content, why are they in a group waiting for a healer? why cant they just throw up an lfm and say "IP BYOH"?
    Exactly. That's the whole point of this thread. Because this is what vets do, and new players who aren't self-sufficient can't really join them.

    The OP is asking how we bridge that gap to help the new players be able to join such groups.

  10. #10
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Correct.

    Exactly. That's the whole point of this thread. Because this is what vets do, and new players who aren't self-sufficient can't really join them.

    The OP is asking how we bridge that gap to help the new players be able to join such groups.
    simple. they shouldn't be in a group with other experienced, self sufficient players if they are not able to be self sufficient themselves. players that are able to be self sufficient probably had to learn to play to get to that point. im sure they all started off the same way feeling like they needed to play blue bar characters or have a dedicated healer in their group. eventually they learned how to run a quest without needing someone to always take care of them or had to play a FVS. it just takes some experience, game knowledge and not running quests on difficulties too hard to handle before gaining some of that experience.

    i don't mean it to sound rude or anything. i pug when i do group and i always help anyone out if they are lost or in trouble. i always play the team player in groups regardless if its full of first timers or full of vets.

  11. #11
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    1 change barbarian, rogue, and fighter in the descriptions to indicate they are challenging classes.
    2 change druid, wizard, paladin, ranger, cleric, and favored soul to indicate they are easier classes due to the ability to self heal
    3 Profit
    A wizzy is only self healing under three conditions: WF AM, fleshy PM, and one with high UMD. Three conditions that new players generally aren't going to be aware of when they start out.

    And neither Paladin or Ranger is what one would define as being "easy" to play, especially Paladin, IMHO.

    My best recommendations are:

    1) random lootgen Heal pots.
    2) Clickys that have like a full heal (or half-heal) effect.
    3) Specific vet players and divine-focused classes getting the stick out of their collective backsides and throw a heal every now and again. If I can do it with my 300 SP pally with 4 LoH, you can do it with 7 to 10 times that amount.

  12. #12
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The first step would be to correctly identify the gap. It has nothing to do with healing.
    First, I would point out that "How do bridge the BYOH gap" has everything to do with healing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    It is a knowledge gap.

    There are posts how to make tons of money before you leave the harbor.
    There are posts how to use low level crafting to make really good twink gear.
    There are posts about how be self sufficient.
    There are posts about combat mechanics, stealth, you name it....

    The majority of the players see none of them.
    I'll agree it's something of a knowledge issue; but I don't think "RTFM" is, or at least should be, the answer.

    When I was new, I was NEW as in my first mmo ever; and "scour the wiki & forums so I know how to build a toon" was not on my mind, play a game and have fun was.

    I've run a mentality gamut from "My rogue would've kicked ass in pnp, what's going on here?"
    To
    "Ok, I've built this Elven Wizard to be a real contributer to the party" (post lfm with "need trapper & healer")
    To
    "My Monk can be totally self-sufficient, I can run with the big boys and don't need noobs screwing it up for me."

    To where I'm at today: "How can I help the new guys without being a full time baby sitter?"
    I'm TRing constantly, so I keep revisiting the low levels and encountering lots of new(er) players as I go. Every life is fully self sufficient, and I toss about healing as needed (from level one, my builds/gearing always incorporate at least some level of ability to heal others). I'll drop back and play "party healer" when needed (if I'm on a life that's capable ie Pally). I constantly dispense advice, but try hard to keep it on the level of "sharing tips and discussing lessons I've learned the hard way," rather than "you're doing it wrong" build critiques. I'll allow breaks between quests for the newly educated (there's a pot for that?) to go shopping, passing sufficient plat when needed.

    I allow hirelings, but share my personal opinions of why they suck (bad AI) and why reliance on either them or a player healer isn't ideal (hirelings excell at dying, it happens to players too {neither can heal you when they're dead}, players can DC, waiting for a healer is so much less fun than running a quest, etc...)

    So while I find that it's mostly a lack of knowledge issue, followed by a lack of resouces to capitalize on that knowledge; there's also an issue of player mentality.
    •Vets that don't want to be bothered with questing at a "learning pace" while imparting their knowledge.
    •Players committed to the "know your role/balanced party" play style - there's really no bringing these guys "into the fold" of self-sufficiency.

    As for the rest of us, I've found my own solution to the problem, though I'm sure it's not one that will be adopted universally (nor that it necessarily should be - I'm hugely against telling others how they should play.) I think it's just a matter of: 1) Wanting to help the new people (as the op and others seem to) and 2) Finding a way of constructively doing so. I think that last part may vary widely from player to player, it's just a matter of figuring what works best for you - but any effort is better than none at all.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    A wizzy is only self healing under three conditions: WF AM, fleshy PM, and one with high UMD. Three conditions that new players generally aren't going to be aware of when they start out.

    And neither Paladin or Ranger is what one would define as being "easy" to play, especially Paladin, IMHO.

    My best recommendations are:

    1) random lootgen Heal pots.
    2) Clickys that have like a full heal (or half-heal) effect.
    3) Specific vet players and divine-focused classes getting the stick out of their collective backsides and throw a heal every now and again. If I can do it with my 300 SP pally with 4 LoH, you can do it with 7 to 10 times that amount.
    Actually my first toon was a pally, he wasn't easy to play in that he dominated content solo ext, but he made a decent dps contribution while being hard to kill and was able to wand whip others when things went down hill. Pallies are fine for new players. As for wizzies pretty sure one of the paths is a pm and while I have read your hatred of all things byoh, pm, and warforged most other players don't share it.

  14. #14
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post

    Do the pre-built paths still suck badly?
    The only one that develops UMD is rogue (I think? Do the rogue paths even do this?), so yea.

    around 85% of being self-sufficient is development of UMD. The other 15% is remembering to buy a wand/scrolls/pots before stepping into the quest.

    Don't give me that horsecrap about being able to afford it. You make enough from one quest to buy a cure moderate wand. I know this because I don't twink my characters til they hit around level 15.

  15. #15
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    •Players committed to the "know your role/balanced party" play style - there's really no bringing these guys "into the fold" of self-sufficiency.
    It's easy to bring them into the fold of my squelch list.

    There's a place for needing a healer. That's a boss fight. You can't fight and scroll heal your self and do reasonable dps if the boss hits really hard.

    Other than that people shouldn't be such marshmallows that they need someone else to babysit them. If they do there's either something wrong with their build, gear or mind.

  16. #16
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    It's easy to bring them into the fold of my squelch list.

    There's a place for needing a healer. That's a boss fight. You can't fight and scroll heal your self and do reasonable dps if the boss hits really hard.

    Other than that people shouldn't be such marshmallows that they need someone else to babysit them. If they do there's either something wrong with their build, gear or mind.
    don't need umd to be self sufficient. theres more to it than being able to survive a fight with some sort of self healing. its called player skill, game knowledge and teamwork when applicable. having the umd to use cure wands or heal scrolls only means they have the means to be self sufficient beyond pots. it doesn't mean they are very good at it.

  17. #17

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    This has always been one of my big concerns while playing. It's gotten to the point where I'm too afraid to make a fighter, barb, or anything that can't heal itself, because I know I won't be able to join the vast majority of groups -- I'll get killed.

    Wand whipping and chugging pots is only marginally better. Even chugging Cure Moderates is a stopgap, in many quests, one good hit, or one wrong hit will knock you on your arse.

    I've had to recently get used to playing without a high level guild ship or a great deal of money for pots or wands, and no guild vendor to somewhat reduce the costs.

    The answer is soloing. Lots of soloing. Just me and the hireling. And sadly, it isn't all that much fun.

    Quomodo cecidisti de cælo, Lucifer, qui mane oriebaris. corruisti in terram, qui vulnerabas gentes.
    Qui dicebas in corde tuo: In cælum conscendam, super astra Dei exaltabo solium meum.

  18. #18
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Lead by example. Low level to mid level content it isn't super difficult to stay alive in battle with pots and a willingness to move to avoid damage. As long as you can carry cure serious pots through the low levels you can show a new players that you are going to be 5x more effective then they are expecting a healer to carry the load. That is the 1st thing tthat needs to be shown.

    The thing about new players is they expect to be carried by a healer. They don't know anything about low level healing limitations. They assume if someone is playing a character with healing spells that healer is their only role and that it isn't that hard to do.

    You can't talk them into a different attitude. They have to see it in action. Just like you can't explain that you can avoid getting held when they complain that hold person is overpowered and there is no way they can win. They have to see it done. Even when they do see it in action there is a good possibility they will just think that you have some hidden advantage over them.

    Plug is right. The easiest way to learn the truth is indeed soloing. Otherwise if you want to help the only thing that you can do is be helpful and lead by example. Suck up that 10% xp hit, pass around some pots and plat, carry a few soulstones while they watch you handle stuff the right way, put up with their gripes about how unfair it is you can do this stuff because you somehow cheat, and be patient. Maybe you get lucky and one out of every party or two will actually want to hang out and learn something from you.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    divine-focused classes getting the stick out of their collective backsides and throw a heal every now and again.
    Before MotU, I would have agreed with you.

    Starting with MotU, the devs have been on a tear, nerfing the offensive capabilities of my cleric, while giving melee toons really obnoxiously overpowered DPS.

    Apparently, class balance for melees means giving them really obnoxiously overpowered DPS, at the price of making it a little difficult to heal themselves. I say a little, because between pots and Epic Destiny options, they seem quite capable of healing themselves, unless of course they have a stick up their backside.

    Far be it for me to disrupt the devs vision of class balance.

    Apparently, my cleric is an easy button toon since he can heal himself. I'd be willing to accept that opinion, from anyone who has ever soloed the hardest content on EE with a cleric. For everyone else, they are simply kidding themselves if they believe a cleric is an easy button toon in any content that actually matters.

    We are in the post-cooperative phase of DDO. That is pretty much the lesson of a lot of DDO at the moment, including BYOH. Only a fool would play as a team player in a game where the devs only listen to people who are only interested in playing in a self absorbed manner.

    Until the time where the devs decide to reestablish some reasonable balance to the game, similar to what existed before MotU, my cleric will be played like a melee toon, only caring for himself.

    I mean, its not like I am demanding that I get to run through the dungeon killing everything myself, while expecting a real human being to follow me around like a puppy dog and take all responsible to ensure I survive. That would be crazy.

  20. #20
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Put up LFM for quest.

    Take first five to hit join. (can warn people with LFM comment that you will be taking ht efirst five if you want to.)

    Stay together as a team. People take less damage this way. and people can help those who need helping.

    Take time to heal up between fights as needed. Heal the noob who has no self healing. If it bothers you too much, suggest he buy pots in the future, and hope he learns t be self sufficient and not a sponge to his team-mates. But help him non-the-less.
    (note most classes can heal other players.)

    Watch red bars during combat... if someone is about to die, heal him. If this becomes too painful, go ahead and let him die... maybe he will learn to be more careful. Be nice and res him in a timely manner.

    All of these things are examples of leading by example. Showing new players that healing classes are not needed and that althogh peopl ewill help you, constant babysitting should not be expected.... at least not if you plan to stay alive.

    Work together... and the whole party earned and deserves their +10% bonus XP for keeping each other alive.

    This works very well...... (well.. unless your first five turns out to be five Barbarians! Doh!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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