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  1. #141
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The amount a HotD can self-heal is plentiful to overcome incoming damage.
    Mmmmm…no. Maybe if you run stuff on casual, but not on hard or elite.

    In a protracted boss fight, with high numbers being taken from damage, and the delays involved, you can EASILY get killed using average equipment. The boss can outlast you in the HP department, your LoHs are limited, and your best spell out there is CSW. In-melee healing is not all that plentiful.

    Say, for example, you’re at the last fight in a Shroud run, taking on Harry. On a first life, an average pally will have maybe 400 – 500 HP, with 6 or 7 LoH. Without decent equipment, you take maybe four hits to bring you down to death or near-death. I can’t tell you how many times I went to LoH (when the dedicated heals were not enough to keep up with the damage I was taking), and got nailed by Harry mid-cast. BAM! Dead.

    Now, knowing what I know now, I could go on about what was wrong with my pally. However, the one thing that was DEFINITELY wrong was that he had next-to-nothing as far as decent gear. This was something rectified by farming, usually with other toons.

    Gear makes a significant contribution to the survivability of a paladin. And no, if your gear sucks, you will not be able to keep up with heals. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Any build, no matter how good, can be played in such a way to make it seem bad. I don't see pointing out those playstyles as evidence of anything.
    You’ve got to be kidding me.

    If you’re going to be standing in the middle of the melee, and want to survive, you’re going to need healing and a means to avoid taking damage. If the way you play your toon dictates that you’ll being using AoE’s centered around you (Wail being a fine example), you’d better be able to deal more damage and heal faster than the other guy who wants to stomp on your skull. So this means adequate healing, decent protection, and so on.

    If you are going to use stealth, it means using lighter armor, and killing something before it even sees you. Healing is only a factor when you get in over your head – which you should never do. Thus, self-healing is a rarity.

    If you are going to be a caster standing in the back of the pack, it means instakills, diplo, and aggro management – again, healing should be a rarity, and heavy armor is a non-starter.

    Playstyle means EVERYTHING when it comes to self-healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You guys completed successfully without a dedicated healer. That is a successful BYOH run.
    Last time I checked, BYOH meant (B)ring (Y)our (O)wn (H)eals – the emphasic on “Your Own”. I don’t think anyone here, except maybe you, disputes thus.

    And last time I checked, I wasn’t brought along by the Sorc into the party, I was there before he / she got there.

    If the Sorc was in BYOH mode, he/she would not have required the services of my pally. But they did. So it was not a successful “BYOH” run. It was a successful run, but not a successful BYOH run.

    If I walked into a defined BYOH run – not the reluctant ones that occur more often than not, but one of those that are advertised – and either popped a hire or asked for healing, I’d probably get booted.

  2. #142
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I've never, I repeat never been in a byoh run where people weren't ready, willing and able to toss a heal to someone that was tripped, stunned, held, incapped from a failed save or suddenly near incap from a massive disintegrate/other huge damage spike. Beholders (and certain other mobs) can neg-level/charisma drain a fellow player beyond their ability use umd, and I've never been in a group that faulted the affected individual rather than helping them.
    Oh, I have. Lots of them. Which is why I generally avoid them when they are posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The responses you outline above I've only ever seen directed at those that persist in hacking away while their red bar drops, not even showing an effort to help themselves; or those who don't so much as drink a pot when combat is over and the group is in-between encounters.
    The problem with driking pots is that your best, standard pot out there is a CSW. If you are a fighter with 600 HP, and knocked down to about 300, that;s an awful lot of pot6s that you need to chug to get back up to near full red.

    And don't tell me about Sliver Flame favor. For most people, that isn't much help. It is only available past lvl 16, and that's if you run every Silver Flame quest on elite. Not everyone can do that.

    I still say that they need to put out a better self-healing solution for non-UMD that's better than a CSW pot.

    I mean, I reguarly carry a full stack or two of pots for all of my melees. I also know how utterly useless they are at higher levels.

  3. #143
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My PM almost never uses NEB. 99% of his healing comes from aura, which he has running 24/7.

    My experience is that being accustomed to using NEB = having to drink lots of pots.
    I rarely use them as well. I only pop them when surrounded AND when I know it'll do damage.

    And I never use auras 24 x 7. It is a waste of mana.

  4. #144
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    ahhh reminds me of the old forums not a day would go past without several new BYOH threads.

  5. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Mmmmm…no. Maybe if you run stuff on casual, but not on hard or elite.
    My pally's cure serious wounds heals 400 HP for 22 SP, which is clearly obtainable if you build for it. That's plentiful healing, and is not in any way limited to casual. (On epic elite, if I ever played it, that would become 400 HP for 32 spell points.)

    You’ve got to be kidding me.
    No, I am not kidding you. An alt that is poorly played, poorly geared, or both, is not representative of the self-sufficiency of that class.

  6. #146
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    And don't tell me about Sliver Flame favor. For most people, that isn't much help. It is only available past lvl 16, and that's if you run every Silver Flame quest on elite. Not everyone can do that.
    It's not every silver flame quest anymore, it's actually pretty easy to get. Yeah you'll have to run the necro series ext, but with the addition of the lords of dust chain and beyond the rift which are f2p you can skip all of necro 3 if you wish, the church and the cult, in the demons den with no problems.

    You don't get the favor till later that's true, and I'd love to see the smaller sf pots dropped down a tier because of it, but cure serious pots can get you to level 12 pretty well, and while heal scrolls are the most common to be umd'd nothing stops someone from using cure wands before they can heal scroll. You combine that with some class and race hamp you can heal up well even before you can heal scroll with options in the game as long as you don't pull an entire room onto yourself.

  7. #147
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The problem with driking pots is that your best, standard pot out there is a CSW. If you are a fighter with 600 HP, and knocked down to about 300, that;s an awful lot of pots that you need to chug to get back up to near full red.
    Granted! However, I didn't see the need to chug a lot as a good reason not to chug any. I'm not calling CSW pots a great solution, just a better than nothin' solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And don't tell me about Sliver Flame favor. For most people, that isn't much help. It is only available past lvl 16, and that's if you run every Silver Flame quest on elite. Not everyone can do that.
    Oh don't worry, you'll never see me promoting those abysmal things. Difficulty to obtain aside, I tries using them once, and got killed while dancing due to the extreme lowering of saves... No thank you. To me SF pots are like hirelings: some people use them to good advantage - but I'm not one of those people and I won't recommend them to anybody
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I still say that they need to put out a better self-healing solution for non-UMD that's better than a CSW pot.
    Agreed! And while the coolectably attainable HoT pots are a good step in that direction, I'm not waitin around for Turbine to fix the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I mean, I reguarly carry a full stack or two of pots for all of my melees. I also know how utterly useless they are at higher levels.
    I you carry them, they either aren't useless or you have inventory space to spare.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's not every silver flame quest anymore, it's actually pretty easy to get. Yeah you'll have to run the necro series ext, but with the addition of the lords of dust chain and beyond the rift which are f2p you can skip all of necro 3 if you wish, the church and the cult, in the demons den with no problems.

    You don't get the favor till later that's true, and I'd love to see the smaller sf pots dropped down a tier because of it, but cure serious pots can get you to level 12 pretty well, and while heal scrolls are the most common to be umd'd nothing stops someone from using cure wands before they can heal scroll. You combine that with some class and race hamp you can heal up well even before you can heal scroll with options in the game as long as you don't pull an entire room onto yourself.
    Class and race hamp? So, outside of those class(/race combinations)es that have good organic healing everyone is limited to the two races and 1 class that actually have heal amp?

    This is where the game could use some adjustment IMO. Every race should probably offer at least 10% heal amp (say 2 tiers of 5% each, maybe more for the more robust races) much like they all get racial toughness. While the classes with the worst self healing, especially the melee classes that generally have to get within biting range to be effective, should have some in their enhancement trees.

  9. #149
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Class and race hamp? So, outside of those class(/race combinations)es that have good organic healing everyone is limited to the two races and 1 class that actually have heal amp?

    This is where the game could use some adjustment IMO. Every race should probably offer at least 10% heal amp (say 2 tiers of 5% each, maybe more for the more robust races) much like they all get racial toughness. While the classes with the worst self healing, especially the melee classes that generally have to get within biting range to be effective, should have some in their enhancement trees.
    to get the hamp for races and classes, you have to spend AP to get it. you can choose how much you want to invest in, but you are also choosing between a better chance at survivability or spending the AP on more dps or whatever. theres also the option of 3X pally lives for 15% hamp that every class and race can get.

  10. #150
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Class and race hamp? So, outside of those class(/race combinations)es that have good organic healing everyone is limited to the two races and 1 class that actually have heal amp?

    This is where the game could use some adjustment IMO. Every race should probably offer at least 10% heal amp (say 2 tiers of 5% each, maybe more for the more robust races) much like they all get racial toughness. While the classes with the worst self healing, especially the melee classes that generally have to get within biting range to be effective, should have some in their enhancement trees.
    No argument there, if you aren't an arcane or divine and want to be able to heal yourself well you have either be human or helf with the best at that point coming from a monk splash on monk dil. Having more options would of course be great but if the goal is to be able to heal up there are options and with the way the game is progressing these really are the best options. Of course there are many other reasons to choose human as well that will be even more pronounced with the skill pass that's coming up. That extra skill point and extra feat are going to be even bigger.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    to get the hamp for races and classes, you have to spend AP to get it. you can choose how much you want to invest in, but you are also choosing between a better chance at survivability or spending the AP on more dps or whatever. theres also the option of 3X pally lives for 15% hamp that every class and race can get.
    So, how does my dwarf fighter get heal amp without spending the year or so it would take me to get the 3 pali lives I really don't want to play as I already have a perfectly fine pali? Spend AP? Don't see it on the list. I get the feeling from some of the posts that the BYOH gap isn't the only one that needs bridging here.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    No argument there, if you aren't an arcane or divine and want to be able to heal yourself well you have either be human or helf with the best at that point coming from a monk splash on monk dil. Having more options would of course be great but if the goal is to be able to heal up there are options and with the way the game is progressing these really are the best options. Of course there are many other reasons to choose human as well that will be even more pronounced with the skill pass that's coming up. That extra skill point and extra feat are going to be even bigger.
    Hmm, the game has 8 races but in many cases only two are actually playable and in others really only one. But hey they are making one one those even better soon, I guess to make up for all the unplayable races, so everything is alright. Because according to the premise of this thread, if you can't heal yourself well you are doing it wrong.

    I'm not a professional game designer, but it would seem better to fix whats broken rather than just beefing up what's not and hope that gets people to choose it.

  13. #153
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    double post
    Last edited by Gremmlynn; 07-01-2013 at 08:47 PM.

  14. #154
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    triple post
    Last edited by Gremmlynn; 07-01-2013 at 08:47 PM.

  15. #155
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Hmm, the game has 8 races but in many cases only two are actually playable and in others really only one. But hey they are making one one those even better soon, I guess to make up for all the unplayable races, so everything is alright. Because according to the premise of this thread, if you can't heal yourself well you are doing it wrong.

    I'm not a professional game designer, but it would seem better to fix whats broken rather than just beefing up what's not and hope that gets people to choose it.
    Honestly you've hit on one of the problems with this game. Most choices are flavor choices. With the way game design and player ..... thought processes have gone there are only a few options for most builds. I don't think anyone will argue that there are fewer and fewer divines pugging, and that in some quests, quite a few of them hirelings are pretty well useless because of their poor ai. This means that the best choice to be able to play content instead of waiting around to play content is to be very self sufficient. This of course means that fewer build choices work well, and this problem is honestly just going to get worse with the enhancement and skill pass in the expansion. I'd love to see different options work better for self healing, give dwarves the whole iron stomach enhancement that's in the eh pass but possibly tweak it up even higher, give horc's some kind of enhanced vampirism that scales with str would kind of fit. Not sure what to do with the elvish classes and halflings but something unique could be thought up. It may not be true to pnp dnd but it would help with where the game is imo. That said I don't think the devs are going to do it, so we have to work with what's there, and as the game gets older and the population possibly shrinks farther byoh is probably going to be more and more prevalent.

  16. #156
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    So, how does my dwarf fighter get heal amp without spending the year or so it would take me to get the 3 pali lives I really don't want to play as I already have a perfectly fine pali? Spend AP? Don't see it on the list. I get the feeling from some of the posts that the BYOH gap isn't the only one that needs bridging here.
    year or so for 3x PLs? guess it depends on how much you play, but it took me under 3 months without powering my way to 20 or using skipping stones or xp pots or running xp/min.

    I cant give a reason why dwarves don't have hamp enhancements. im sure its a lore thing or something, but there is hamp gear that can be found. theres convalescence items, Leviks Bracers, ship buff, DT armor, HotD, Vengeful Protector, GS, Fleshmaker and quite a few other things that have hamp on it. I don't craft, but I think you can craft heal amp. theres heal over time pots and clickies like Pouch of Jerky that can help with healing. there are options out there and just like anything else when first starting out, it takes time and patience to acquire things you need to make your character better. it doesn't instantly happen.

  17. #157
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Hmm, the game has 8 races but in many cases only two are actually playable and in others really only one. But hey they are making one one those even better soon, I guess to make up for all the unplayable races, so everything is alright. Because according to the premise of this thread, if you can't heal yourself well you are doing it wrong.

    I'm not a professional game designer, but it would seem better to fix whats broken rather than just beefing up what's not and hope that gets people to choose it.
    I play all melee classes. only 1 has a spell to heal and can use wands, but all use pots to stay alive. theres only a handful of healers I actually trust with my characters life, but even than, I make sure I am at the ready if they need healing on their own. I worked hard to get my characters to be self sufficient, including working to get hamp built into them and learning to be self sufficient with just pots. I never made excuses that there was something wrong with the classes or races. instead, I worked it out and overcame their deficiencies. the only class I play that has healing built into it is a ranger and he cant even use heal scrolls. not saying my characters never die, but I did put effort into making my characters better. I don't play these flavor of the month, cookie cutter with self sufficiency built into them builds. I pick a class and race I think would be fun to play and make it work.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    year or so for 3x PLs? guess it depends on how much you play, but it took me under 3 months without powering my way to 20 or using skipping stones or xp pots or running xp/min.

    I cant give a reason why dwarves don't have hamp enhancements. im sure its a lore thing or something, but there is hamp gear that can be found. theres convalescence items, Leviks Bracers, ship buff, DT armor, HotD, Vengeful Protector, GS, Fleshmaker and quite a few other things that have hamp on it. I don't craft, but I think you can craft heal amp. theres heal over time pots and clickies like Pouch of Jerky that can help with healing. there are options out there and just like anything else when first starting out, it takes time and patience to acquire things you need to make your character better. it doesn't instantly happen.
    Lets see, I did my first TR back in march and just hit 15 yesterday on a character I actually like playing so choose to play it more often than I would one that I'm just playing to get the past life (which isn't something I'd likely do anyway).

    I do craft and heal amp is nowhere to be found there.

    As for time and patience, what good will those do you if you can't get into a group due to not having the survivability you need time an patience to get? I don't know about you but I play to have fun, not to have fun at some point in the future. Which is likely the real gap you guys are going to have to bridge, because this is the mindset of many of those you seem to think should be playing the game your way.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I play all melee classes. only 1 has a spell to heal and can use wands, but all use pots to stay alive. theres only a handful of healers I actually trust with my characters life, but even than, I make sure I am at the ready if they need healing on their own. I worked hard to get my characters to be self sufficient, including working to get hamp built into them and learning to be self sufficient with just pots. I never made excuses that there was something wrong with the classes or races. instead, I worked it out and overcame their deficiencies. the only class I play that has healing built into it is a ranger and he cant even use heal scrolls. not saying my characters never die, but I did put effort into making my characters better. I don't play these flavor of the month, cookie cutter with self sufficiency built into them builds. I pick a class and race I think would be fun to play and make it work.
    Really? I trust hirelings to keep me alive as dieing isn't that big a deal (not permadeath, so at worst it's a free ride to a tavern which is a generally good thing in my book).

    I make no excuses either, I just avoid your groups because, to me BYOH mostly means "be prepared to take this game way to seriously". I also play the game, never work it.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Really? I trust hirelings to keep me alive as dieing isn't that big a deal (not permadeath, so at worst it's a free ride to a tavern which is a generally good thing in my book).

    I make no excuses either, I just avoid your groups because, to me BYOH mostly means "be prepared to take this game way to seriously". I also play the game, never work it.
    You've got it all wrong. While I don't add BYOH on my lfm tag, I certainly end up with no healer 90% of the time. Do I take it more seriously because I don't wanna wait for a healer or are you the one who'se willing to wait the extra 30mins to possibly ensure a win (I guess). Which is more serious? I don't know. I guess this is just not relevant to "seriousness" at all.

    And our groups communicate alot, we zerg while chatting and everyone's happy (except some new players once in a while that are unlucky to fall after a bad pug experience - then patience isn't always there). We laugh when someone zerged a bit too hard and dies because we also don't care at all about losing 10% exp. Go back to RPing with your hireling or please learn how other really think before making such ignorant statements. But yeah... you're way is the right one, we're bad people I get it.

    Edit: On top of that, everyone can go AFK or pike a run once in a while if he has something else to do or wants to eat, shower or whatever without leaving the group. People can chose what they wanna run as we don't dictacte but want to please pretty much everyone. We even sometime hold up exp (overcap or just stop playing) so we can play with a folk we met the day before again.

    We = I = the group
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 07-01-2013 at 10:10 PM.

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