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  1. #121
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    11 of the 13 classes have innate self-healing, and the two that don't are original classes. Meaning most of the classes at launch and every single class added after launch have native self-healing.

    Read the writing on the wall.
    Sor and Wiz only have self healing if either WF or taking Pale Master PRE.

    ...so if your definition includes race (WF) you could also say that Ftrs and Brbs who choose to be Half Elfves could have inate healing too. (although this also requires a stat choice to get it)


    WF is also not a FtP race choice....

    Sorc do have Cha for UMD, but actually, people seem to think that self healing for fleshie Sorcs is a lot easier than it really is.

    Skill points are very limited on Sorcs, and UMD is only valuable at higher levels.... even then no-fail Heal scroll use is very difficult to get on a crossclass skill class....


    On a side note: healing amp makes a huge difference for self sufficiency.

    There are also feat choices that help... and gear choices.

    But..... new players do not know or have the mindset to make selfhealing a priority.
    Even the classes that I agree have "inate" self healing ae not always new guy friendly in that regard.

    Bards and Fvs have to choose healing spells. (technically so would a WF Sorc.)

    ... even Druids have to memorise healing spells first.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #122
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Right-clicking on the edit button and opening in a new window sometimes works.
    Unless you're posting from a phone or other mobile device that doesn't present such an option
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  3. #123
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Yep. Might as well throw some funding in there with the tutorials as well. New players start off with nothing and that is a major hindrance that is pointed to correctly over and over. You can't stay alive with pots from breakables and chest loot. Try to pot heal yourself with the plat you get in Korthos buying pots from the pot vendor and you will run out before you leave the island. The introduction quest needs to be more involved about consumables and hirelings.
    I remember having this problem for about an hour or 2 after i started the game. Then someone pointed out the hireling vendor to me, and the problem pretty much permanently went away.

  4. #124
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That's a made-up definition of innate self-healing that ignores the reality of the game.
    I'm pretty sure that innate means entirely self contained, requiring nothing from the outside. I think your definition is made up. Repair spells are innate, but i consider having to be a warforged to use them not to be. That is the only one of 6 races that make them work.

    Being able to use umd to heal is not innate self healing, any more than using pots.

    It doesn't ignore anything. I have a fleshy sorc who can't self heal any better than a barbarian. I have a rogue who couldn't routinely use heal scrolls until about level 18. I have a friend who plays a fleshy artificer (all his characters are elves). My current ranger build is level 11 and still uses pots and wands, which are not innate self healing. I also have a halfling archmage who self heals quite well.

    Conversely, my clerics and bards that i have made, even though they were some of my first characters, have perfectly fine self healing, because it is innate, and fairly effective. Mind you, i built them with the idea of healing other people, but it just turns out that self healing comes right along with that.

    The things you can twist from epic destinies are much better than heal scrolls. So if you only achieve viability with said scrolls at level 18, and then at 20 you don't need them any more, i'm not sure how worthy an investment that is.

  5. #125
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Of course it would be silly to expect Turbine to write a tutorial on how to play classes in ways that they were designed, for the most part, not to be played. If classes without any form of of innate self healing were expected to self heal, they would have had self healing built in from the start. Rather than having to rely on customization via multi-classing, specific race/attribute combinations or use of cross class skills. While those things are there for those who opt to diverge in that direction, it would take a really poor designer to make jumping through a lot of divergent hoops the expected method of character development.
    Actually, I don’t think it would be silly for Turbine to have tutorials tailored to give information specified for whatever class a new player created. What is silly is what there is now: a general tutorial that is intended to give a new player “all they need to know” to play the game? From the grotto, I gather that to play the game I need to have a healer, a caster, and a trapper in the group.

    One thing that I have learned is that learning this game does require learning how to play your class/character. Because of the learning curve in the game, it takes a somewhat stubborn individual to stick with it. I suspect many new players just get frustrated and quit.

  6. #126
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    From the grotto, I gather that to play the game I need to have a healer, a caster, and a trapper in the group.
    Because a "balanced parry" of people pooling their individually respective skills & talents is what your classic adventuring party consists of, especially in the setting of Dungeons & Dragons.

    Very few, if any players came to this game knowing in advance that they would need to have a rogue splash on their fighter to be able to self heal "'cause the clerics just weren't gonna do it for ya." This "l2pNOOB, only fools play Barbs" mentality that every new player is somehow supposed to know in advance is bull carp. BYOH parties full of class-splashed trick builds that either have trap skills splashed in or meta-knowledge on how to avoid them is not your typical or reasonably expectable accomplishment for new players. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    One thing that I have learned is that learning this game does require learning how to play your class/character.
    Class & character are two different things. For example "Monkcher" is not a class, it's a character build. Same for the "Exploiter," "Juggernaught" and anything else of that sort. Splashing classes and having twink gear is not a part of "learning to play your class."
    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    Because of the learning curve in the game, it takes a somewhat stubborn individual to stick with it. I suspect many new players just get frustrated and quit.
    Then it's a good thing none of us having this discussion were ever new then, right? Because if we had ever been new and subjected to this frustrating learning curve, we would've quit by now...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  7. #127
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Because a "balanced parry" of people pooling their individually respective skills & talents is what your classic adventuring party consists of, especially in the setting of Dungeons & Dragons.
    I can see why the tutorial quest was designed the way it was. When the game first started, I understand that learning to group and play with a balanced party was the designers’ goal. But, the game has changed in many ways. For example when the cap was 10 maybe all a player really need to be self-healing was to drink cure pots. Maybe that would get you to level 10, but it won’t get you to 20 or epics. The truth is the game has changed; I'm not saying it is for the better or the worse, but it has changed.

    And this issue goes beyond BYOH, last night rouge joined my party. So, I told him to get the traps. We were running PTH. Anyway he couldn’t find/disable the traps. Through tells I figured out that he had the right stats and skill point allocation, but did not have good gear. I gave him some tips on what gear to try to get. My point is that he was doing exactly what I would expect given the information that Turbine overtly provides in the game, which is insufficient in my estimation. Do I think that Turbine will redesign the grotto so that it provides a somewhat different tutorial given the class that a person creates their character as? No. So, to answer the original question of the thread, we as experienced players are going to have to bridge that gap ourselves by filling in the void that is left by game design. I want new players to keep playing the game. I don’t want them to quit and go somewhere else because they get frustrated. Although as I said, I don’t expect the game designers to give more tutorial information in game, I do see that there is more that could be done to give new players better/more complete information about their characters early on.

  8. #128
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    The truth is the game has changed; I'm not saying it is for the better or the worse, but it has changed.
    The game has not changed. It has grown & expanded, but not changed. What has changed, is the general expectation from a significant portion of the player base, is that players should be building their toons to operate in the absense of a "healer." Not a nanny/heal-bot, but a healer; a character of the divine arts who can contribute meaningfully to a parties' success while doing what it can do better than any other class in the game: provide healing to it's team mates. The requirement to build your toon for self-healing is not a game enforced mechanics change, it's a player enforced cultural change.
    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    So, to answer the original question of the thread, we as experienced players are going to have to bridge that gap ourselves by filling in the void that is left by game design.
    The original question, as best as I understood it, was not wether we should have to teach rogues how to do traps, but rather how do we teach new players self sufficiency; so that they are neither excluded for not knowing how, nor unable to do so when needed.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-30-2013 at 08:31 AM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  9. #129
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The game has not changed. It has grown & expanded, but not changed. What has changed, is the general expectation from a significant portion of the player base, is that players should be building their toons to operate in the absense of a "healer." Not a nanny/heal-bot, but a healer; a character of the divine arts who can contribute meaningfully to a parties' success while doing what it can do better than any other class in the game: provide healing to it's team mates. The requirement to build your toon for self-healing is not a game enforced mechanics change, it's a player enforced cultural change.
    When playing with others to the extent that those players’ attitudes change, the game changes.

    [/Quote]The original question, as best as I understood it, was not wether we should have to teach rogues how to do traps, but rather how do we teach new players self sufficiency; so that they are neither excluded for not knowing how, nor unable to do so when needed.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry you did not like my example, but the underlying principle is the same for teaching new players to be self-sufficient. We experienced players are going to have to do at least some of the work.

  10. #130
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    the underlying principle is the same for teaching new players to be self-sufficient. We experienced players are going to have to do at least some of the work.
    I used to put up groups for stealth training occasionally. When I get back into the game I think it might be fun for a while to set up groups to help teach a bit to players coming in. If you have the patience to do slow runs new players do enjoy getting the opportunity to learn things like aggro management, target priority, how to use stealth, using the environment and basically seeing how an experienced player plays the game. A little of this and showing people around the various shops and you're done. As for build planning I don't go there, too complicated.

  11. #131
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    Default Bridging player skill and knowledge.

    Loaded question. It is volumes of experience, and the ability to learn and adapt. We aren't going to answer that in any one thread. The best experiences when I first started were by players that not only were highly skilled, but wanted to teach someone who was eager.

    The quests are filled with traps and certain mobs will just kill you no matter what. I have to be good at it. Being good at it entails knowing what to use, how to move away from the triple striking cleave, duck and pull behind cover/position, flank a spell fail, jump a bolt, nightshield those missles, resistance to the dots, and so on. Knowing which trap and where, and where the disable box is, the map of entire wilderness areas, every quest, every player area, every mob, their tactics, how to get to the quest(Y U SO HARD!), where they sell those components, pots, scrolls, turn in vendor, silly quest giver in rando world of D&D when the quest is in totally other area for what reason other than to make you buy teleport rods for 5 bucks every life because inconvenience is a profit angle for turbine and im just ranting now.


    TL;DR: This game has been living off players taking others into their guilds, channels, the forums and certain posters, ddowiki. The best Turbine ever did is give you a half ass compendium that links you to wiki at best.
    Last edited by Rubbinns; 06-30-2013 at 04:52 PM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    11 of the 13 classes have innate self-healing, and the two that don't are original classes. Meaning most of the classes at launch and every single class added after launch have native self-healing.

    Read the writing on the wall.
    While, if we follow the premise of this thread, 2 of those classes are pretty much unplayable without some modification. Which is why Turbine would be as silly to write that tutorial as a food manufacturer would to give instructions on what seasonings one must add to their "ready to eat" meal to make if somewhat palatable. Better to tell players that the classes work fine as long as they are played in a manner fitting to their design than to tell players that they expect them to play them in a manner they are not designed to be played. That just begs the question; "If we are supposed to play them like this, why did you make them like that?".

    But again, personally I just see this thread as those who have a specific play style asking how they can get everyone to play the game their way. While, I'll admit, this may be the best way to get by when pugging. That says more about pugging than it does about DDO.

  13. #133
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Ive run across a lot of wf wiz/sorcs/artis who didnt know what the repair spell was, even ones over level 20.......... Tons of paladins/rangers/ and bards who just wouldn't self heal at all. and one cleric lol who wouldnt self heal......I am battle cleric I dont heal...........

    I think the biggest help to bridge this so called gap is education and getting people the information to help themselves more...... but there are always going to be those who will just flat out refuse the most helpful advice........like one wf sorc told me....im a sorc its not my job to heal myself thats the clerics job!!!! level 20 running epics...........

    When I started playing in 2010 we didn't need vet players to group with us in fact we had more fun without them. We formed a group of us from pugging through korthos and the harbour and stuck together till we hit vale, all a bunch of noobs, i used the forums heavily for build ideas and other things and pointed my fellow noob friends in this direction for information. At about the vale levels we ran into helpful vets/experianced players and got recruited into various guilds a lot of the people i leveled up with drifted off to other games. Anyway all im saying is do newer players *need* to group with vets? especially for the early parts of the game? I had a lot of fun running through all that with people who where just as new as me.......I would hate to take that away from new players.....its like stealing someones childhood to introduce them to an adult grindfest.........groundhog day again life. they going to get there eventually anyway why ruin it?

  14. #134
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    While, if we follow the premise of this thread, 2 of those classes are pretty much unplayable without some modification. Which is why Turbine would be as silly to write that tutorial as a food manufacturer would to give instructions on what seasonings one must add to their "ready to eat" meal to make if somewhat palatable. Better to tell players that the classes work fine as long as they are played in a manner fitting to their design than to tell players that they expect them to play them in a manner they are not designed to be played. That just begs the question; "If we are supposed to play them like this, why did you make them like that?".

    But again, personally I just see this thread as those who have a specific play style asking how they can get everyone to play the game their way. While, I'll admit, this may be the best way to get by when pugging. That says more about pugging than it does about DDO.
    I cannot agree here. Turbine could say something along the lines of “Play whatever you like, but plan on soloing a lot if you cannot build a sufficient toon. Many groups prefer sufficiency and the Gremmlynn types (no offense) will not always be on to hold your hand”.

    I am not saying your play style is bad per se, but there are not always groups on for these people to join. If we go back to new people do not like to put up LFM’s, then we are back at square one. New people are miffed because they cannot get groups.
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  15. #135
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    I think some players should also learn that by aiming for self sufficiency, you do not have to make much of a sacrifice in any other area. I won't defend that the trend is a good or bad thing but it's there so I understand that it's pretty much deal with it or be left alone in some cases.

    Of course it depends on classes and platinums sometimes but still it starts with knowing how to get there. Most of the time when I meet a new player during a TR session (that seems to want to stick playing the game and is a fun individual), I usually lend them 50k/100k if they promise to use that for self sufficiency. Or buy some for them sometimes if I think the money will go somewhere else.

    As for helping skill/character wise, i've been turned over too many times by some people getting mad at me telling them what to do. So offering advices before someone ask... not so much anymore. But if they WOULD ask...

  16. #136
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    To me, the problem of bridging the BYOH gap will always exist.

    When I started playing, I had to make efforts to learn how to build a character that was reasonably self sufficient. It wasn't an overnight process. Reading, research, and effort are required. And that's the problem. Generally speaking, the playerbase loathes having to work for something. And the tendency of players to simply give up when things become difficult factors in there as well.

    Turbine really doesn't help in this imo. When I started, I learned quite a bit from reading the wiki and communicating with veteran players on the forums. Communicating in game as well was very helpful, though at that time it was more than likely a kernel of wisdom hidden amidst scathing commentary. The compendium was severely lacking compared to the observations vet players shared. Much later, when the decision was made to make things easier, newer players still suffered. This was due to being able to easily advance their characters without learning survival skills. At least, until they hit a wall somewhere in higher level content. Not really much better of a solution. The premade paths have needed revisiting forever now. Currently, they are a newb trap as well.

    More often than not however it seems more appropriate to say that newer players are crippling themselves. They don't seek each other out, and don't run with each other. They aren't experimenting with things to learn firsthand what does and does not work. And they are joining groups where they are in well over their heads and being unsatisfied with the responses they get from other party members. This is speaking generally again, as there are always exceptions.

    I was goofing off and running Tear today with an fun group of competent players. In fact, we ran a number of other quests until I had to break party due to not wanting to have to take level 11 early (mine was the only legend build in the party). A couple of those guys claimed to have been around much longer than I. Think one was describing beta actually. We commented repeatedly and made jokes amongst ourselves about how the content used to require you to be able to meet certain thresholds by way of skills/ability scores/feats/etc in order to complete. Yet we were steamrolling though it like it was waterworks. For a few of these runs we had obviously new players join. And despite any amount of attempted helpful advice or requests there were multiple deaths. Leader reformed a couple of times due to this. The reason wasn't the xp loss, it was actually attitude. Being argumentative, doing the polar opposite of what was requested, dying (then being raised by spare cakes), and running straight in to die again and again. Perplexing to have to listen and read about how we were newbs, horrible people and any such thing because we tried to help out...

    I've gotten off track however. My point in this is that there are some people who have no idea what a BYOH playstyle entails. Then there are some who have built questionable characters and expect to be carried or nannied in a vet group (Mr 91 hp human fighter at level 9 I'm looking at you). Then you have some who just don't want to be told anything. They are playing the game like it's and fps with a perpetual 'reset' button and fail to see how more experienced players get annoyed at their dying multiple times in one encounter.

    Playing in a self sufficient manner, yet actively participating in the parties objectives is what BYOH is to me. Players help each other out, yet no one is anyone's manservant or keeper. You are ultimately responsible for yourself. I actually play this way outside of those types of groups. Mostly because I absolutely disdain being a burden on another player.

    Generally speaking, new players are able to do none of this. And that's fine. But it's also why they should be grouping with each other or joining slow paced or teaching runs to interact more with the veteran population. People like to blame bravery bonus for new players crashing and burning multiple times in their runs. But that's not really true. Because before the xp bonuses bravery provides, there was the 'bragging rights' of saying I ran this on elite. Same problem then, but different day.

    And that's why teaching runs are a good answer. The new players learn the quests, some self sufficiency, strategies, in an appropriate forum. Without the negative feeback that is typically given when they've died for umpteenth time in a speed run of (insert high xp payout quest here).
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I cannot agree here. Turbine could say something along the lines of “Play whatever you like, but plan on soloing a lot if you cannot build a sufficient toon. Many groups prefer sufficiency and the Gremmlynn types (no offense) will not always be on to hold your hand”.

    I am not saying your play style is bad per se, but there are not always groups on for these people to join. If we go back to new people do not like to put up LFM’s, then we are back at square one. New people are miffed because they cannot get groups.
    You seem to be missing my point. By telling players how to play despite the shortcomings of some of the classes they would be pointing out that they apparently can't design classes that fit the play style they are advocating. Better to advocate a play style that fits the classes as they are, or bite the bullet and redesign all the classes to fit that play style before advocating it. To do otherwise just makes them look foolish.

  18. #138
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    You seem to be missing my point. By telling players how to play despite the shortcomings of some of the classes they would be pointing out that they apparently can't design classes that fit the play style they are advocating. Better to advocate a play style that fits the classes as they are, or bite the bullet and redesign all the classes to fit that play style before advocating it. To do otherwise just makes them look foolish.
    Even If it were to point out Turbine’s shortcomings, would it not be better for Turbine to bite the bullet rather than someone walk away because they got bored? Maybe I am looking too far into things, but I would hate for someone to start playing thinking they were going to be Conan and find that they are not as useful as a mutt build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Even If it were to point out Turbine’s shortcomings, would it not be better for Turbine to bite the bullet rather than someone walk away because they got bored? Maybe I am looking too far into things, but I would hate for someone to start playing thinking they were going to be Conan and find that they are not as useful as a mutt build.
    Actually, no I don't think so. I personally would not buy a product that the manufacturer told me straight up needed extensive modification simply to use it in the manner they advocate using it.

  20. #140
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Here's the biggest thing about this . . . who's hurt the most by new players expecting a "trinity" game and finding we don't play like that?

    Turbine.

    Turbine needs to retain players to stay afloat. Tubine kinda needs to figure this out.

    There are more than enough self-healing options available . .. but it's not communicated well enough that this is the expectation of people and how this goal can be achieved.

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