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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Didn’t you post once that you thought that Pallys were hard to play if they were not 32-point toons?
    No, I never did. Quite the opposite, actually, as my first build thread I ever posted makes it clear right at the start that it works fine with a 28pt build.

    My first ever character was a 28pt pally, and that build eventually evolved into the build I posted to the forums for new players, where again, I explain that it works fine for 28pt builds. It's linked in my signature as Evasion Paladin.

    I never said it was. That being said, unless you have the appropriate gear, the damage you soak as a Paladin in melee is going to be worse as you will not deal as much damage per hit as a fighter, you’ll be in combat longer, and thereby you will take more damage overall. The DoS PrE compensates for a lot of that.

    My first pally life was HotD. It was nice when leveling, but without proper gear (which takes time to acquire), the amount of damage he took in melee – especially in boss fights – was striking.

    Mind you, this was before the change to PRR.
    The amount a HotD can self-heal is plentiful to overcome incoming damage. The don't play well as tanks, though, but tanks aren't needed in DDO except in the rarest situations. (LOB, TOD and FOT are the only instances I can think of that need a tank.)

    My pally spent most of his life in the pre-PRR days.

    Last time I checked a reconstruct and repair cost SP. This is, unless, you’re doing it from a scroll.

    And if you play like a lot of people play – which is standing in the middle of melee as opposed to the back of the pack – you tend to use a lot of quickened reconstructs.

    And yeah, I’m noticing that self-healing draws a lot of SP away from damage-dealing. As a fleshy AM – first-life, nonetheless – I had less of a problem with “staying power” mainly because a) you get SP increases with the AM PrE, and b) I wasn’t spending my SP on self-heals and burst healing. This means more SP into damage and other things.
    Any build, no matter how good, can be played in such a way to make it seem bad. I don't see pointing out those playstyles as evidence of anything.

    Except for the part about the guys in the group who weren’t able to BYOH.

    Maybe you missed that part…
    You guys completed successfully without a dedicated healer. That is a successful BYOH run.

  2. #102
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yup and I still believe in my first post in the thread that classes with no inherent ability to self heal in any prc like barb and fighter should not be classified as easy classes in their descriptions but advanced classes.
    Yet that simple change would do nothing to impart knowledge on aspiring fighters & barbs of how to be self-sufficient, nor would they learn how by playing innately self healing classes or class/race combinations (ie WF Arcane).

    There have been some good -if not great- suggestions on what Turbine could do (via tutorials & such) to help new players learn about the importance of self healing, and some of how to do it; but I think relying on Turbine to deal with it is unrealistic.

    IMO, we should try and focus on ways those of us that know how to build in self sufficiency could share that knowledge in constructive and helpful ways.

    My 2cp on the matter anyways...
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-28-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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  3. #103
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Yet that simple change would do nothing to impart knowledge on aspiring fighters & barbs of how to be self-sufficient, nor would they learn how by playing innately self healing classes.

    There have been some good -if not great- suggestions on what Turbine could do (via tutorials & such) to help new players learn about the importance of self healing, and some of how to do it; but I think relying on Turbine to deal with it is unrealistic.

    IMO, we should try and focus on ways those of us that know how to build in self sufficiency could share that knowledge in constructive and helpful ways.

    My 2cp on the matter anyways...
    Oh I agree, I just think that it'd probably be a 5 min change for an intern to change the descriptions slightly. I introduced a friend of mine and my wife to ddo at one point, their decisions for initial classes were swayed by the descriptions of the classes in the write ups because they had very little dnd experience. (Baldur's Gate for the most part) and that was years ago where they had forgotten a lot. I think for people like them it is a simple change that would let them get into the game a little easier so they can start that learning process.

  4. #104
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Now part of this will depend on level, but I'd say a more mobile pally with blurry/incorp and moderate prr will do better overall in hotd because of the extra heal amp to heal what does go thru. This is obviously in situations where you aren't doing a typical tank role of trying to hold a mob stationary for the rest of the party to kill while you soak the damage.
    Again, this gets back to having the right gear, which usually takes a new player (or a person playing the class for the first time) time to acquire. I mean, I somewhat agree with you, and that damage mitigation doesn’t suck. But, the reality is that until you’ve got the gear to meet you targets, you’re soaking damage pure and simple.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    This is true and yet it isn't. I can't count how many times I've been too busy healing the melee pile in a raid to do anything for an arcane that's at the edges. Without the ability to self heal they would be dead in that case and dead is zero dps. That said the big dps increase for am atm would be to go evo spec in shiradi, compared to pm that will do much more damage for much less sp, but a wf am will be able to do the same as a fleshy but still heal themselves when the feces hit the fan and the healer is too busy to toss them a heal and or already dead. This is why pm's and wf am/sorcs are so popular, it gives them a way to survive when things don't go well and when they do go well.
    First, I’m excluding EDs in any of my comparisons. Mainly because with the fleshy AM, EDs were not around. Secondly, I’m going mainly DC casting on my PM at present for various reasons.

    Generally, when you’re an arcane at the edges, a CSW pot or two is really the most you need. And in boss fights, if you drop DoTs, AoEs, move, and use diplo (honestly, I’m awful at using diplo) you’re not going to take a whole lot of damage. Really, the only problem you face is the “oh ***” moments in combat. However, I’m finding that even with a PM’s NEB burst heal, it really doesn’t resolve the “oh ****” situations half of the time. Mainly because half of those times there are so many mobs on you that burst healing only delays the inevitable. You mileage may vary on that one, and it depends on how you run a quest, who you are running it with, and so on.

    My problem is that Fleshy PMs and WF AMs grossly oversimplify play. In some cases, as a PM, you WANT to be in the action – something that I must profess that I kinda enjoy at times. However, the downside to this is that you’re dropping heals a lot. You can compensate by using Necrotic Touch / bolt / blast to conserve SP, but generally you can only do that as a last resort, when you have melee that can absorb aggro so that you can pepper mobs with your SLAs, or starting out in a quest to try and conserve mana from the outset…and you have a melee to grab aggro. The easiest way to avoid taking damage altogether is to 1 or 2-shot the mob and keep moving. You can do that with a decent investment in Spot, Sneak, and a little ingenuity.

    I find that with a PM, I’m needing to quaff mana pots WAY more often than I did with my AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Did they survive and you completed with no cleric/fvs/druid? Then it was a successful byoh run.
    You have a far different definition of BYOH then the many BYOH runs that I’ve been on in the past. If someone had to heal someone else, certain people would be bleeding out their eyeballs from the shock and horror of it all. There would be ranting about someone’s build being gimp, them being a noob, why would I waste my SP on that noob, why didn’t I just leave them a stone at the bottom of a river of lava and the like.

    Which is one of the reasons why I generally don’t join advertised BYOH runs.

  5. #105
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Again, this gets back to having the right gear, which usually takes a new player (or a person playing the class for the first time) time to acquire. I mean, I somewhat agree with you, and that damage mitigation doesn’t suck. But, the reality is that until you’ve got the gear to meet you targets, you’re soaking damage pure and simple.
    fair enough to an extent but even a dusk heart helps with that now for a new player.




    Generally, when you’re an arcane at the edges, a CSW pot or two is really the most you need. And in boss fights, if you drop DoTs, AoEs, move, and use diplo (honestly, I’m awful at using diplo) you’re not going to take a whole lot of damage. Really, the only problem you face is the “oh ***” moments in combat. However, I’m finding that even with a PM’s NEB burst heal, it really doesn’t resolve the “oh ****” situations half of the time. Mainly because half of those times there are so many mobs on you that burst healing only delays the inevitable. You mileage may vary on that one, and it depends on how you run a quest, who you are running it with, and so on.
    My issue here is that's only when things go well, and if you don't zerg, also things like even old epic dq there was plenty of damage for casters to soak, those sound blades, archers ext that would be in play even when the queen was mid with the melee.

    You have a far different definition of BYOH then the many BYOH runs that I’ve been on in the past. If someone had to heal someone else, certain people would be bleeding out their eyeballs from the shock and horror of it all. There would be ranting about someone’s build being gimp, them being a noob, why would I waste my SP on that noob, why didn’t I just leave them a stone at the bottom of a river of lava and the like.

    Which is one of the reasons why I generally don’t join advertised BYOH runs.
    I think a picture sums this up best

  6. #106
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You have a far different definition of BYOH then the many BYOH runs that I’ve been on in the past. If someone had to heal someone else, certain people would be bleeding out their eyeballs from the shock and horror of it all. There would be ranting about someone’s build being gimp, them being a noob, why would I waste my SP on that noob, why didn’t I just leave them a stone at the bottom of a river of lava and the like.

    Which is one of the reasons why I generally don’t join advertised BYOH runs.
    I've never, I repeat never been in a byoh run where people weren't ready, willing and able to toss a heal to someone that was tripped, stunned, held, incapped from a failed save or suddenly near incap from a massive disintegrate/other huge damage spike. Beholders (and certain other mobs) can neg-level/charisma drain a fellow player beyond their ability use umd, and I've never been in a group that faulted the affected individual rather than helping them.

    The responses you outline above I've only ever seen directed at those that persist in hacking away while their red bar drops, not even showing an effort to help themselves; or those who don't so much as drink a pot when combat is over and the group is in-between encounters.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-28-2013 at 04:57 PM.
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  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Really, the only problem you face is the “oh ***” moments in combat. However, I’m finding that even with a PM’s NEB burst heal, it really doesn’t resolve the “oh ****” situations half of the time. Mainly because half of those times there are so many mobs on you that burst healing only delays the inevitable. You mileage may vary on that one, and it depends on how you run a quest, who you are running it with, and so on.
    My PM almost never uses NEB. 99% of his healing comes from aura, which he has running 24/7.

    My experience is that being accustomed to using NEB = having to drink lots of pots.

  8. #108
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The responses you outline above I've only ever seen directed at those that persist in hacking away while their red bar drops, not even showing an effort to help themselves; or those who don't so much as drink a pot when combat is over and the group is in-between encounters.
    those kind of players are the ones who are under the impression or assume that someone will heal them. usually its the divine icon, but since all but 2 classes have the easier means to self heal and heal others, some players might still expect healing help. in a BYOH, healing others is not expected. I rarely join them not because I cant be self sufficient, but because of the lack of teamwork and zerg style I usually experience. its rare I come across a BYOH group that is actually not like that.

  9. #109
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    those kind of players are the ones who are under the impression or assume that someone will heal them. usually its the divine icon, but since all but 2 classes have the easier means to self heal and heal others, some players might still expect healing help. in a BYOH, healing others is not expected. I rarely join them not because I cant be self sufficient, but because of the lack of teamwork and zerg style I usually experience. its rare I come across a BYOH group that is actually not like that.
    I do zerg heavily and I do post as byoh so that part is true. However I and everyone I run with like this on a regular basis will throw heals or whatever they have if they can. The main part however is that we do not pay attention to the red bars of others, it's not what we find fun and that is part of what is stated. Now if I notice someone is in trouble I help, why because I don't want -10% for one, and second everyone rolls a 1 sometimes gets tripped held ext.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Yet that simple change would do nothing to impart knowledge on aspiring fighters & barbs of how to be self-sufficient, nor would they learn how by playing innately self healing classes or class/race combinations (ie WF Arcane).

    There have been some good -if not great- suggestions on what Turbine could do (via tutorials & such) to help new players learn about the importance of self healing, and some of how to do it; but I think relying on Turbine to deal with it is unrealistic.

    IMO, we should try and focus on ways those of us that know how to build in self sufficiency could share that knowledge in constructive and helpful ways.

    My 2cp on the matter anyways...
    Of course it would be silly to expect Turbine to write a tutorial on how to play classes in ways that they were designed, for the most part, not to be played. If classes without any form of of innate self healing were expected to self heal, they would have had self healing built in from the start. Rather than having to rely on customization via multi-classing, specific race/attribute combinations or use of cross class skills. While those things are there for those who opt to diverge in that direction, it would take a really poor designer to make jumping through a lot of divergent hoops the expected method of character development.

    That kind of illustrates the whole point of this thread actually. It seems to me that this thread is more about how do we get players to play the game the "right" way like we do, despite the game not being well designed to be played that way, then anything else.

    Personally I'm more in the anti-BYOH camp than otherwise. I'm more inclined to want players to be better at facilitating others to help them by minimizing the amount of help they need through playing in a manner that minimizes it. Than I am about teaching players how to follow the crooked path that leads non-innate self sufficient classes to self sufficiency. More playing the game how it is designed than despite how it is designed.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I do zerg heavily and I do post as byoh so that part is true. However I and everyone I run with like this on a regular basis will throw heals or whatever they have if they can. The main part however is that we do not pay attention to the red bars of others, it's not what we find fun and that is part of what is stated. Now if I notice someone is in trouble I help, why because I don't want -10% for one, and second everyone rolls a 1 sometimes gets tripped held ext.
    Which points out why I tend to avoid BYOH groups. I simply don't like to play with anyone, healer or otherwise, who isn't always aware of the parties red bars. At least in normal quest content as the party UI for raids leaves a lot to be desired in this area. I also expect them all to play in a manner that minimizes the need for others to have to worry about it.

    In a good group that person who was tripped is getting heals spammed from those who can, is having agro pulled from them by those who can and is being surrounded by CC by those who can because they are playing with others who, with a little experience, need devote little of their attention to simply playing their character and most to being aware of the evolving situation. Unfortunately, many seem to use it for things unrelated to the game.

  12. #112
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    In a good group that person who was tripped is getting heals spammed from those who can, is having agro pulled from them by those who can and is being surrounded by CC by those who can because they are playing with others who, with a little experience, need devote little of their attention to simply playing their character and most to being aware of the evolving situation. Unfortunately, many seem to use it for things unrelated to the game.
    In a good group a player that gets tripped will have enough hp to last the trip’s effects. If we are talking normal gameplay here there are very few instances that a dedicated healer is needed in any party.

    As DDO evolves into whatever it does, we need to accept the changes that come with it. Many of the fanboi’s have pointed this out numerous times. BYOH is here to stay. Quests get done quicker, people level quicker, and the loot runs are the much faster. When the cap was level 10, we could easily figure that making a 5/5 wiz/sorc was not a going to get us in many groups. Fast forward 7 years and we realizes that as DDO has evolved begin a mana sponge in a group is not going to get us back in many groups. Something drastic from Turbine is the only thing that will change this.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    In a good group a player that gets tripped will have enough hp to last the trip’s effects. If we are talking normal gameplay here there are very few instances that a dedicated healer is needed in any party.
    I agree, because a competent healer throws necessary heals without missing a beat and good groups don't need many of those in most cases.

    As DDO evolves into whatever it does, we need to accept the changes that come with it. Many of the fanboi’s have pointed this out numerous times. BYOH is here to stay. Quests get done quicker, people level quicker, and the loot runs are the much faster. When the cap was level 10, we could easily figure that making a 5/5 wiz/sorc was not a going to get us in many groups. Fast forward 7 years and we realizes that as DDO has evolved begin a mana sponge in a group is not going to get us back in many groups. Something drastic from Turbine is the only thing that will change this.
    No, we don't have to accept the changes. If the player base moves towards the soloing in a group while catching a movie on the side mold, we are perfectly capable of finding a game players actually feel like playing together.

    By the way, I put the mana sponges on the same list as the "I can't be bothered to pay enough attention to what's going on" players, be they "healers" or otherwise. Of course my definition of a mana sponge is one who takes more damage than they should.

  14. #114
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    In a good group that person who was tripped is getting heals spammed from those who can, is having agro pulled from them by those who can and is being surrounded by CC by those who can because they are playing with others who, with a little experience, need devote little of their attention to simply playing their character and most to being aware of the evolving situation. Unfortunately, many seem to use it for things unrelated to the game.
    The byoh nomenclature was created at a fairly early point in the game where it was actually possible for characters to heal themselve up fairly easily with pots and wands. It was basically created to exclude jerks from the group. Yes it was designed to be exclusionary. It was a way of letting healer know that they weren't going to get abused here and we would be helping them however we could.

    It has evolved it's own jerks over time to be sure and I've no doubt that some of the jerks who were being avoided managed to catch on and infiltrate the groups to grief those players because one thing jerks hate is to be ignored. So at this time the nomenclature is no longer serving it's purpose of advertising groups that are jerk free.

    Everyone loves a group like you described. Any group that is functioning effectively together is a pleasure to be in.

    While running at low levels let me describe some of the average pugs you mostly end up in and I'm sure you will remember and recognize these.

    Running Kobold Assault. Everyone wants to stand outside the gate and make their stand there getting smacked by lightning and hold person until being overrun while those with blue bars are trying to get shrined up. They won't move to the end of the path and fight stragglers until they finish nor will they move to the main caster spawn point.

    Running Archer's point defense (a timed quest) after surviving (if surviving) the gate battle they immediately take a left out of the gate to clear the way to the chest pretty much assuring that time will run out before they get to the other side. Even after getting them to run the other side they will aggro too many things at once and mostly likely will wipe. Last time I ran this some bard in the group instead of focusing on taking thing out quicky spent their time trying to draw aggro and fascinate things which he did poorly after the second fail where I and a rogue managed to get soulstone back to the shrine to at least get them back up, he sent me a tell explaining how crowd control was needed learn to play the game. I sent him one back saying that there isn't really enough time to crowd control. If his cc had been worth anything he might have had a point.

    Running freshen the air. No matter how mny times I ask a group even when I'm leading the party not to enter the big room with the boxes that need to be broken until everything is pulled and the caster's have been taken out once the 1st group is pulled and killed they always run in and most of the time I and maybe one other guy that listened have to collect the soulstones and try to fight it out to the shrine ambush.

    And I still after 6 years run groups with these people, yes, even on divines. But if you're really going to tell vets or even worse new players that they need to roll up divines to help new players or (I hope not but who knows) even experienced player that still do these things after the years that we've been here and take their stupid abuse once again who is really the jerk?

  15. #115
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Btw Gremmlynn that last statement wasn't aimed at you. Would have put this in an edit but I couldn't.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Of course it would be silly to expect Turbine to write a tutorial on how to play classes in ways that they were designed, for the most part, not to be played.
    11 of the 13 classes have innate self-healing, and the two that don't are original classes. Meaning most of the classes at launch and every single class added after launch have native self-healing.

    Read the writing on the wall.

  17. #117
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    The byoh nomenclature was created at a fairly early point in the game where it was actually possible for characters to heal themselve up fairly easily with pots and wands. It was basically created to exclude jerks from the group. Yes it was designed to be exclusionary. It was a way of letting healer know that they weren't going to get abused here and we would be helping them however we could.

    It has evolved it's own jerks over time to be sure and I've no doubt that some of the jerks who were being avoided managed to catch on and infiltrate the groups to grief those players because one thing jerks hate is to be ignored. So at this time the nomenclature is no longer serving it's purpose of advertising groups that are jerk free.
    Just wanted to take a moment to pop in and agree here. I've been in far too many arguments on these forums where people attempt to deny this. Thanks for mentioning it for those who remain clueless...
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  18. #118
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    11 of the 13 classes have innate self-healing, and the two that don't are original classes. Meaning most of the classes at launch and every single class added after launch have native self-healing.

    Read the writing on the wall.
    I can't agree with your definition of innate. Anybody that heals through umd is not using innate self healing. It took a long time before my rogues or umd based splashes could use heal scrolls, and prior to that they were using the same off the shelf healing that everybody can use.

    Here are the classes that do not have innate self healing:

    Barbarian, Fighter, Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue, and to some degree artificer.

    If you must choose a certain race to be able to heal yourself, i.e. warforged and repair, that's a racial ability, not a class ability in my definition.

    If you have to be a certain race to attain self healing, then halflings make all classes self healing.

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  20. #120
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Btw Gremmlynn that last statement wasn't aimed at you. Would have put this in an edit but I couldn't.
    Right-clicking on the edit button and opening in a new window sometimes works.


    (BTW: where you been in-game? lol)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

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