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  1. #81
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekragh View Post
    My very first /rant on

    snip
    I do not know if this type of behavior will ever change. Back when we only needed 1.9 mill xp to cap, people did not seem in that much of a rush. People were more relaxed. (Not everyone was putting up LFM’s, or not rushing, but overly the tempo was a lot slower).

    Now to get to 4.3 mill xp, we are under the mentality that there can be no deaths, run this quest 4 times, that series once on elite and so on. It is like clockwork. The same grind. We know what we need to do and how many times we need to do a certain amount of quests (without deaths) to get back to the promised land of 4.3 mil xp.

    Even if Turbine made tr xp only 1.9 mill xp (same as a first life), people would still be under the same rush, rush, rush as they are now. It would be easy to figure out what quests to do how many times to calculate how long it will take you to get 1.9 mill xp. (Of course there are no deaths here, because we do not accept new people).

    What to do? I admit I fall in this category. If It takes my group longer than 15 minutes to do an at level wiz king, I might as well have not logged on. Asking people to go slow again is like asking you to put training wheels back on your bike and tell you that you can only circle the drive way. I am not making an excuse for this, but it is the way that it is. I have theories of why it has come to this, but they are unimportant at the moment and they are irrelevant. I highly doubt we will ever get back to the days of having a community that is helpful.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  2. #82
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I do not know if this type of behavior will ever change. Back when we only needed 1.9 mill xp to cap, people did not seem in that much of a rush. People were more relaxed. (Not everyone was putting up LFM’s, or not rushing, but overly the tempo was a lot slower).

    Now to get to 4.3 mill xp, we are under the mentality that there can be no deaths, run this quest 4 times, that series once on elite and so on. It is like clockwork. The same grind. We know what we need to do and how many times we need to do a certain amount of quests (without deaths) to get back to the promised land of 4.3 mil xp.

    Even if Turbine made tr xp only 1.9 mill xp (same as a first life), people would still be under the same rush, rush, rush as they are now. It would be easy to figure out what quests to do how many times to calculate how long it will take you to get 1.9 mill xp. (Of course there are no deaths here, because we do not accept new people).

    What to do? I admit I fall in this category. If It takes my group longer than 15 minutes to do an at level wiz king, I might as well have not logged on. Asking people to go slow again is like asking you to put training wheels back on your bike and tell you that you can only circle the drive way. I am not making an excuse for this, but it is the way that it is. I have theories of why it has come to this, but they are unimportant at the moment and they are irrelevant. I highly doubt we will ever get back to the days of having a community that is helpful.
    Reducing the tr xp grind might cause a slow down for some, for many I think the rush is due to the massive grind and wanting to get it done, reducing the grind means going slower won't make the tr take so incredibly much longer.

  3. #83
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Reducing the tr xp grind might cause a slow down for some, for many I think the rush is due to the massive grind and wanting to get it done, reducing the grind means going slower won't make the tr take so incredibly much longer.
    Even if you only need a fraction of the xp, you will not want to spend 25 minutes in Durk’s. You will not wait for a cleric to join your group. Hell, you still might not even put up LFM’s as the “unbathed” will slow you down. I could see a few people slowing down a bit and not rushing, but I think we will still have the same problem.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I do not know if this type of behavior will ever change. Back when we only needed 1.9 mill xp to cap, people did not seem in that much of a rush. People were more relaxed. (Not everyone was putting up LFM’s, or not rushing, but overly the tempo was a lot slower).

    Now to get to 4.3 mill xp, we are under the mentality that there can be no deaths, run this quest 4 times, that series once on elite and so on. It is like clockwork. The same grind. We know what we need to do and how many times we need to do a certain amount of quests (without deaths) to get back to the promised land of 4.3 mil xp.

    Even if Turbine made tr xp only 1.9 mill xp (same as a first life), people would still be under the same rush, rush, rush as they are now. It would be easy to figure out what quests to do how many times to calculate how long it will take you to get 1.9 mill xp. (Of course there are no deaths here, because we do not accept new people).

    What to do? I admit I fall in this category. If It takes my group longer than 15 minutes to do an at level wiz king, I might as well have not logged on. Asking people to go slow again is like asking you to put training wheels back on your bike and tell you that you can only circle the drive way. I am not making an excuse for this, but it is the way that it is. I have theories of why it has come to this, but they are unimportant at the moment and they are irrelevant. I highly doubt we will ever get back to the days of having a community that is helpful.
    I guess that depends on the person. I know plenty of people, with multiple TRs, that are NOT under the mentality that there can be no deaths and that sometimes do things slowly. On my completionist (non-Permadeath) character (life 5 now), I run with two others and we put an LFM up for the remaining slots. We note that it's an elite run and what we are doing, nothing else. We take the first that click the LFM, without asking if they are new or multiple TR. If we don't have the 'perfect' make-up, that's OK. We plan our strategy based on the make-up we have. If it looks like we are all multiple TRs, we will most likely zerg, with few instructions. If newer players, we will slow things down, with more instructions. We, as far as I can recall, have never worried about 'no deaths.' Things happen. Sometimes people die. We raise them and continue on.

  5. #85
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SebastianG View Post
    I guess that depends on the person. I know plenty of people, with multiple TRs, that are NOT under the mentality that there can be no deaths and that sometimes do things slowly. On my completionist (non-Permadeath) character (life 5 now), I run with two others and we put an LFM up for the remaining slots. We note that it's an elite run and what we are doing, nothing else. We take the first that click the LFM, without asking if they are new or multiple TR. If we don't have the 'perfect' make-up, that's OK. We plan our strategy based on the make-up we have. If it looks like we are all multiple TRs, we will most likely zerg, with few instructions. If newer players, we will slow things down, with more instructions. We, as far as I can recall, have never worried about 'no deaths.' Things happen. Sometimes people die. We raise them and continue on.
    For sure. Not everyone is all about the numbers, but there are many that are. Even if they are not concerned about the numbers they are not always as forgiving when someone brings than what some consider useful.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

    LEGION

  6. #86
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder if the mentality of "must go fast, no time to be slow" would diminish if Ship buffs and XP potions instead of having timers had Completion counters... (this means the mentality is more a My buffs running out instead of darn I have 8 lives left to go)

    Ship buffs last for 4 completions or until death
    NPC buffs last for 2 completions (House J/P for example)
    XP Potions last for 4x each hour they are currently set for lasting.

    Be you Casual or Hard Core it would work out the same for people.

    Of course the only problem with this would be how it effects Slayer areas...

  7. #87
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I do not know if this type of behavior will ever change. Back when we only needed 1.9 mill xp to cap, people did not seem in that much of a rush. People were more relaxed. (Not everyone was putting up LFM’s, or not rushing, but overly the tempo was a lot slower).

    Now to get to 4.3 mill xp, we are under the mentality that there can be no deaths, run this quest 4 times, that series once on elite and so on. It is like clockwork. The same grind. We know what we need to do and how many times we need to do a certain amount of quests (without deaths) to get back to the promised land of 4.3 mil xp.

    Even if Turbine made tr xp only 1.9 mill xp (same as a first life), people would still be under the same rush, rush, rush as they are now. It would be easy to figure out what quests to do how many times to calculate how long it will take you to get 1.9 mill xp. (Of course there are no deaths here, because we do not accept new people).

    What to do? I admit I fall in this category. If It takes my group longer than 15 minutes to do an at level wiz king, I might as well have not logged on. Asking people to go slow again is like asking you to put training wheels back on your bike and tell you that you can only circle the drive way. I am not making an excuse for this, but it is the way that it is. I have theories of why it has come to this, but they are unimportant at the moment and they are irrelevant. I highly doubt we will ever get back to the days of having a community that is helpful.

    Nah. If you are enjoying what you are doing and having fun sharing the experience with others, it does not matter if it takes ten minutes or an hour and ten minutes.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    I sometimes wonder if the mentality of "must go fast, no time to be slow" would diminish if Ship buffs and XP potions instead of having timers had Completion counters... (this means the mentality is more a My buffs running out instead of darn I have 8 lives left to go)

    Ship buffs last for 4 completions or until death
    NPC buffs last for 2 completions (House J/P for example)
    XP Potions last for 4x each hour they are currently set for lasting.

    Be you Casual or Hard Core it would work out the same for people.

    Of course the only problem with this would be how it effects Slayer areas...
    Oooh, I like your thinking a lot. You could extend it to pots: An XP pot is good for 50 completions (or whatever a good number would be), and slayer pots could be worth 150 kills (or whatever.) Renown pots could be used for 50 chest pulls, maybe.

    For xp and renown pots specifically, as long as they hadn't been used up yet they could give you their bonus on the little stuff too, like those "you get 5 renown for killing this random mob" deals as well as quest optionals.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    While they're at it...can they add it so TR's don't have to run the grotto? :P The Grotto needs more depth but it certainly doesn't need to be there after you've already run to 20.
    Your wish is granted.

    You can skip the grotto quest completely by choosing the "skip tutorial" option during your first conversation with Jeets. You still get the xp for the grotto even if you skip it.

  10. #90
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekragh View Post
    My very first /rant on



    Like someone hinted in the first page,BYOH,its meaning,has changed from "be a somewhat competent,smart player,that,if needed can heal himself,be it with low level spells,wands,scrolls or potions,and that doesnt run in face first into the 20 mobs without anyone else,dies then blames the others"

    to

    "you're expected to be uber,and even if i can,i WONT heal you,because its BYOH"

    i think,that this whole byoh thing started,because of ******bags players,that thought of healers,has hirelings with a brain,and that,they should be able to keep them alive no matter WHAT,because they,are,healers,this type of mentality where just because there is a healer in the group,everyone else has a free pass to just go in and take everything on with bare fists because the cleric/fvs will keep them alive didnt please the cleric/fvs players and rightly so.So the clerics/fvs started forming groups with BYOH,so that those type of players,would be discouraged to join these groups,but has is human nature,someone interpreted this very wrongly,and twisted it.Thus the "new" BYOH groups where born,and they are,sadly the norm today.

    I Agree with what someone said that its this 90% of the community,which is in my opinion,awfull,that are most likely driving away new players,because new players either become "infected" and join the ranks of ******bags has they are the majority,therefore needed to complete raids,and higher diff quests,or they quit.Or,if BY SOME MIRACLE,they find the non ******bags and are taken in by them,learn to avoid pugs,group only with those they know,and just come to terms with it and realise they wont be able to do non of the demanding quests and raids,unless they want to join a group of Dbags.

    BYOH as it is today is the accomplishment,of a child that had terrible parents.(child being the "healers" and parents being actually alot of the community back then) BYOH and the "everyone HAS TO SELF HEAL OR GIMPED" mentality,is,and rightly so,the backlash of people taking clerics and fvs for granted,and treating them poorly.

    I find it funny how alot of these BYOH praise the diversity,in this game,since they themselves,do all they can to make it has non diverse has possible.

    DDO,was a game that wanted not to be the best out there,but to be different,diverse,unique,and people like so many here,transformed it into just another MMO with DnD slaped in for flavour (devs didnt help <.<)

    Many of you praise it for its customization,yet you all flock like sheep,to the same "type"
    of build,and call,others that dont follow your standards,noobs,gimped,etc.

    Groups,dont feel like,different players,playing together to through teamwork and communication complete a certain quest/raid

    Groups,feel like a bunch of strangers,that just try to complete the quest has fast has possible whilst not talking to anyone,with there eyes set on the end of the quest,its all about finishing first and has fast has possible,oposed to what,in my opinion,was to be intended to enjoy the ride.

    Grouping feels like an inter racial race to the end rather then people banding together to help each other out and complete a hard quest/raid.

    just my 2cents

    /rant off
    I'd give an extremely strong "second" to this post, this is my overwhelming "taste" of the community, and as I've played DDO on and off for about four years, it would really most apply only to the last year or year and a half. Part of my dislike for things like the BB system is that it has indirectly officialized some of this mentality into a belief that "this is the way everyone is SUPPOSED to play." Leading to arguments like: well why are you waiting for a healer or a trapper at all, do you not know how to play this game or did you build a gimp?

    I believe I've said it before somewhere or other, but I think more than anything else, the greatest cause of this beyond the other valid ones mentioned here (like healers have gone away because the community in general treated them poorly, and I can very much say that that is true, as on my cleric I have, in my entirety of playing the game, been told ONCE ever by ANY group "thanks, the healer did a great job", and have never been acknowledged as contributing anything whatsoever on any other occasion) is that for many people, DDO stopped being a game a long time ago and morphed into being an endless session of regrinding out levels for the umpteenth time. When it turns into that people don't care about having fun, helping their team, or even cooperating with a team... it's just about completing as many high xp quests as quickly as possible.

    While healing is a thankless role in most/many MMO's, the other thing is that DDO's multiclassing system and TR'ing system both allow characters to design and progress to the point where they, personally, don't necessarily need a dedicated healer. That's really not so much the case in a lot of other MMO's where not having any healer at all will just dead stop you from doing a great deal of the content that requires grouping. But that being said, not every player or every chararcter will be at that point, certainly not while in the first half or two-thirds of levelling in most cases, and frankly many players like myself don't consider the zerg playstyle fun even when we're capable of it on a given toon. Healing in DDO feels an awful lot like: I know, silently in my head, that I prevented x people from dying and I kept the party up x number of times when things were looking ugly, but my team doesn't seem to be at all aware of it and practically treats me like I'm piking this quest and not contributing anything because I'm not topping the scorecard for kills. I still enjoy doing it but I can see why others don't, and when actually in-game around players, the term "gimp" is used far, far less to describe a character not capable of being self sufficient and far, far more frequently used to describe a character not min-maxed to be doing optimal damage. In that sort of a mindset, healing isn't important other than as some kind of xp parasite keeping the dps alive, and that's frequently how healers are regarded.

  11. #91
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Actually my first toon was a pally, he wasn't easy to play in that he dominated content solo ext, but he made a decent dps contribution while being hard to kill and was able to wand whip others when things went down hill. Pallies are fine for new players. As for wizzies pretty sure one of the paths is a pm and while I have read your hatred of all things byoh, pm, and warforged most other players don't share it.
    Really?

    So you know what goes through the thoughts of “most players?”

    So, I’m running Foundation of Discord on elite, and it is a reluctant BYOH group as – of course – no one can get a FvS or a Cleric. We’ve got two pallies, a sorc, an arti or rogue, and whatever. The fleshy toons start worrying about being a drag on the party because they can’t self heal.

    Me and the other pally step up – I’ve got maybe 250 SP at that point, and just received the ability to do CSW as a spell – and decided to be “co-healers.” It didn’t take much as the people who were doing melee were the pallies, and everybody else stayed in the back (of course, the arti did his “pew pew pew” thing). Our biggest problems were traps that people ran into by accident.

    My pally is an almost pure tank build. Do I do decent DPS? Not compared to your baseline fighter. I’m difficult to kill, maybe. Would I recommend someone else running a pally as their first toon?

    Absolutely not. With the revamp to AC adding PRR, the need for dodge, and having the appropriate equipment, pallies can be a big PITA. Plus, the striding hit you take with DoS (whis fixes a lot of problems with HP, PRR, and AC for a pally) makes it difficult to be a decent melee and putting space between you and the casters in the back.

    All things being said, the Sorc’s DPS made the quest itself fairly easy. Then again, he didn’t have to concentrate on doing quickened reconstructs and so on – he killed stuff. A lot of stuff.

    I’ve got a PM too, with all that self-healing. I’m still trying to figure out whether I was more effective as a first-life fleshy AM, or a second-life fleshy PM. It seems I had more staying power when it came to doing damage, and more options to do that kind of damage as a fleshy AM, than a PM. The jury is still out.

    If I have a hatred of all things BYOH, it is because it limits options when it comes to builds. It also takes an entire class type – that being divines – whose capabilities excel in healing, and throws it out the window. The “vet-approved” divine class is a sub-standard melee who has a few buffs and some offensive spells (just ignore all of those spells that have to do with healing, because that is for your exclusive use).

    As for WF, their advantages are not balanced with an equal number of disadvantages. And then I hear people whining about how “WF need some love.” I liken WF as a race to PM as a class. There are a huge number of advantaged to PMs as a class: lots of DPS, lots of damage mitigation, a bunch of immunities when in form, and so on. We take a hit, however, with light spells, some divine spells, and positive healing spells do nothing for me, my regen items don’t work in form, my strongest group of spells has the unfortunate effect of healing my enemies, and so on, and so on. WF, however, still benefit from healing spells, still have all of those same immunities, and the like. The downsides to being a WF – a small drop in CHR, you can’t wear various armor types (compensated BIG TIME by plating and docents), and rust monsters attack you first – are utterly laughable as far as their impact on balance.

    So if I have “hate” for WF and BYOH, it is for some pretty good reasons.

  12. #92
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Really?

    So you know what goes through the thoughts of “most players?”

    So, I’m running Foundation of Discord on elite, and it is a reluctant BYOH group as – of course – no one can get a FvS or a Cleric. We’ve got two pallies, a sorc, an arti or rogue, and whatever. The fleshy toons start worrying about being a drag on the party because they can’t self heal.

    Me and the other pally step up – I’ve got maybe 250 SP at that point, and just received the ability to do CSW as a spell – and decided to be “co-healers.” It didn’t take much as the people who were doing melee were the pallies, and everybody else stayed in the back (of course, the arti did his “pew pew pew” thing). Our biggest problems were traps that people ran into by accident.

    My pally is an almost pure tank build. Do I do decent DPS? Not compared to your baseline fighter. I’m difficult to kill, maybe. Would I recommend someone else running a pally as their first toon?

    Absolutely not. With the revamp to AC adding PRR, the need for dodge, and having the appropriate equipment, pallies can be a big PITA. Plus, the striding hit you take with DoS (whis fixes a lot of problems with HP, PRR, and AC for a pally) makes it difficult to be a decent melee and putting space between you and the casters in the back.

    All things being said, the Sorc’s DPS made the quest itself fairly easy. Then again, he didn’t have to concentrate on doing quickened reconstructs and so on – he killed stuff. A lot of stuff.

    I’ve got a PM too, with all that self-healing. I’m still trying to figure out whether I was more effective as a first-life fleshy AM, or a second-life fleshy PM. It seems I had more staying power when it came to doing damage, and more options to do that kind of damage as a fleshy AM, than a PM. The jury is still out.

    If I have a hatred of all things BYOH, it is because it limits options when it comes to builds. It also takes an entire class type – that being divines – whose capabilities excel in healing, and throws it out the window. The “vet-approved” divine class is a sub-standard melee who has a few buffs and some offensive spells (just ignore all of those spells that have to do with healing, because that is for your exclusive use).

    As for WF, their advantages are not balanced with an equal number of disadvantages. And then I hear people whining about how “WF need some love.” I liken WF as a race to PM as a class. There are a huge number of advantaged to PMs as a class: lots of DPS, lots of damage mitigation, a bunch of immunities when in form, and so on. We take a hit, however, with light spells, some divine spells, and positive healing spells do nothing for me, my regen items don’t work in form, my strongest group of spells has the unfortunate effect of healing my enemies, and so on, and so on. WF, however, still benefit from healing spells, still have all of those same immunities, and the like. The downsides to being a WF – a small drop in CHR, you can’t wear various armor types (compensated BIG TIME by plating and docents), and rust monsters attack you first – are utterly laughable as far as their impact on balance.

    So if I have “hate” for WF and BYOH, it is for some pretty good reasons.
    Sadly though you're wrong on it, wf have less ac and prr than their fleshy counterparts, have less healing amp, less cha and wis. To see how this works out lets take a 150pt heal on a fleshy and wf, we'll give the wf full healers friend and both toons 30% amp.

    WF
    150*.8*1.3=156

    Human or helf
    150*1.2*1.3=234

    Thats a huge downside in melee range if you can't reconstruct yourself.

    Then pms yeah they get some immunities now but they have no way to heal stat damage without dropping form now, and don't have a large burst heal. Neg energy burst while it does provide some burst healing is nowhere near as strong as heal or recon.

    As far as your pally being dos doesn't mean you always use a shield, when I level a tank prc'd toon I use a shield at times when I'll be taking more damage but other wise I break out a two hander because it's more dps and allows a bigger contribution to the quest. DoS is also not the only prc, when I leveled my first toon that pally I mentioned I was hotd till vale then went kotc. There is more than dos, and I also didn't say that pallies were good healers for the party but that they could take care of themselves in a byoh run.

  13. #93
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The first step would be to correctly identify the gap. It has nothing to do with healing.

    It is a knowledge gap.

    There are posts how to make tons of money before you leave the harbor.
    There are posts how to use low level crafting to make really good twink gear.
    There are posts about how be self sufficient.
    There are posts about combat mechanics, stealth, you name it....

    The majority of the players see none of them.
    Forums almost always represent a minority. And with forums this poorly designed? Forget about it. There's also a number of people on this forum with a lot of anger issues and bitterness displayed towards FTP players and they keep throwing around the term "flower sniffers" in reference to anyone who is not zerging quests on a BYOH monk with +30% striding in 2 minutes. I know forums in general tend to be terrible, but these one's in particular just seem content to allow the inmates to run amok in the asylum, completely unchecked.

    So tell me again, why should new players come to this wretched hive of scum and villainy?

  14. #94
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Sadly though you're wrong on it, wf have less ac and prr than their fleshy counterparts, have less healing amp, less cha and wis. To see how this works out lets take a 150pt heal on a fleshy and wf, we'll give the wf full healers friend and both toons 30% amp.

    WF
    150*.8*1.3=156

    Human or helf
    150*1.2*1.3=234

    Thats a huge downside in melee range if you can't reconstruct yourself.
    First, as everyone is point out here, the need for healing is a huge downside for melees period. So that argument doesn't wash.

    Furthermore, a WF's healimg amp "limitation" is compensated by the mere fact that you have two full groups of spells that heal a WF : repair and heal. And the WF have to do nothing to receive these. Comparing lemons to oranges, PMs cannot be healed by negative enrgy out of form, and cannot be healed by positive energy in form. You also take a nice hit in SP eventually going back into form.

    Likewise, WF also get a 25% bump in fortification. So that's another thing to add to the need-to-heal pile.

    And I don't see that less CHR stopping people from becoming WF Sorcs or WF pallies. Ok, so maybe you can't be a WF cleric. It is compensated by the slew of advantages that come with a WF Arti.

    Again...balance is out of whack.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Really?

    So you know what goes through the thoughts of “most players?”

    So, I’m running Foundation of Discord on elite, and it is a reluctant BYOH group as – of course – no one can get a FvS or a Cleric. We’ve got two pallies, a sorc, an arti or rogue, and whatever. The fleshy toons start worrying about being a drag on the party because they can’t self heal.

    Me and the other pally step up – I’ve got maybe 250 SP at that point, and just received the ability to do CSW as a spell – and decided to be “co-healers.” It didn’t take much as the people who were doing melee were the pallies, and everybody else stayed in the back (of course, the arti did his “pew pew pew” thing). Our biggest problems were traps that people ran into by accident.

    My pally is an almost pure tank build. Do I do decent DPS? Not compared to your baseline fighter. I’m difficult to kill, maybe. Would I recommend someone else running a pally as their first toon?

    Absolutely not. With the revamp to AC adding PRR, the need for dodge, and having the appropriate equipment, pallies can be a big PITA. Plus, the striding hit you take with DoS (whis fixes a lot of problems with HP, PRR, and AC for a pally) makes it difficult to be a decent melee and putting space between you and the casters in the back.

    All things being said, the Sorc’s DPS made the quest itself fairly easy. Then again, he didn’t have to concentrate on doing quickened reconstructs and so on – he killed stuff. A lot of stuff.

    I’ve got a PM too, with all that self-healing. I’m still trying to figure out whether I was more effective as a first-life fleshy AM, or a second-life fleshy PM. It seems I had more staying power when it came to doing damage, and more options to do that kind of damage as a fleshy AM, than a PM. The jury is still out.

    If I have a hatred of all things BYOH, it is because it limits options when it comes to builds. It also takes an entire class type – that being divines – whose capabilities excel in healing, and throws it out the window. The “vet-approved” divine class is a sub-standard melee who has a few buffs and some offensive spells (just ignore all of those spells that have to do with healing, because that is for your exclusive use).

    As for WF, their advantages are not balanced with an equal number of disadvantages. And then I hear people whining about how “WF need some love.” I liken WF as a race to PM as a class. There are a huge number of advantaged to PMs as a class: lots of DPS, lots of damage mitigation, a bunch of immunities when in form, and so on. We take a hit, however, with light spells, some divine spells, and positive healing spells do nothing for me, my regen items don’t work in form, my strongest group of spells has the unfortunate effect of healing my enemies, and so on, and so on. WF, however, still benefit from healing spells, still have all of those same immunities, and the like. The downsides to being a WF – a small drop in CHR, you can’t wear various armor types (compensated BIG TIME by plating and docents), and rust monsters attack you first – are utterly laughable as far as their impact on balance.

    So if I have “hate” for WF and BYOH, it is for some pretty good reasons.
    I disagree with almost everything in this post. I think pallies are fine for a first toon (mine was), I don't think DoS is the prestige of choice for pallies, I don't see a fleshie sorc having an advantage over WF sorcs because they don't have to worry about self-healing (this point I find particularly bizarre), I don't think that AM is particularly better than PM for hurting stuff, PM's primary damage line (nullification) doesn't heal enemies, only undead, WF have indeed been nerfed pretty hard, "vet approved" divine does not mean melee divine, and most importantly, BYOH does not limit build variety.

    And the best part of your story? You describe your own successful BYOH run as evidence that BYOH is bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, as everyone is point out here, the need for healing is a huge downside for melees period. So that argument doesn't wash.
    Who doesn't need healing? Melees can self-heal as well as anyone else. Everyone needs healing, and everyone is capable of building to supply their own heals.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Who doesn't need healing? Melees can self-heal as well as anyone else. Everyone needs healing, and everyone is capable of building to supply their own heals.
    Interesting... Although I somewhat disagree with the "as well as anyone else" part, I believe this sentiment, along with the question of "how do we share this knowledge (of how to do it) with those who need it?" was at the very heart of the op.

    It's been a curiously long and twisted path that's brought us back around towards that topic...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I disagree with almost everything in this post. I think pallies are fine for a first toon (mine was)…
    Didn’t you post once that you thought that Pallys were hard to play if they were not 32-point toons?

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    … I don't think DoS is the prestige of choice for pallies…
    I never said it was. That being said, unless you have the appropriate gear, the damage you soak as a Paladin in melee is going to be worse as you will not deal as much damage per hit as a fighter, you’ll be in combat longer, and thereby you will take more damage overall. The DoS PrE compensates for a lot of that.

    My first pally life was HotD. It was nice when leveling, but without proper gear (which takes time to acquire), the amount of damage he took in melee – especially in boss fights – was striking.

    Mind you, this was before the change to PRR.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I don't see a fleshie sorc having an advantage over WF sorcs because they don't have to worry about self-healing (this point I find particularly bizarre)…
    Last time I checked a reconstruct and repair cost SP. This is, unless, you’re doing it from a scroll.

    And if you play like a lot of people play – which is standing in the middle of melee as opposed to the back of the pack – you tend to use a lot of quickened reconstructs.

    And yeah, I’m noticing that self-healing draws a lot of SP away from damage-dealing. As a fleshy AM – first-life, nonetheless – I had less of a problem with “staying power” mainly because a) you get SP increases with the AM PrE, and b) I wasn’t spending my SP on self-heals and burst healing. This means more SP into damage and other things.

    In fact, it often surprises me just how much that self-healing bleeds my SP pool overall.

    So, it is not as bizarre a claim as you make it out to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    And the best part of your story? You describe your own successful BYOH run as evidence that BYOH is bad.
    Except for the part about the guys in the group who weren’t able to BYOH.

    Maybe you missed that part…

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Interesting... Although I somewhat disagree with the "as well as anyone else" part, I believe this sentiment, along with the question of "how do we share this knowledge (of how to do it) with those who need it?" was at the very heart of the op.

    It's been a curiously long and twisted path that's brought us back around towards that topic...
    I had one of the first responses... and I was attempting to focus on the need to share the knowledge (in-game), and my response got mischaracterized into LRN2PLAY NOOB!

    Glad to see it come back to this direction.

  19. #99
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Didn’t you post once that you thought that Pallys were hard to play if they were not 32-point toons?



    I never said it was. That being said, unless you have the appropriate gear, the damage you soak as a Paladin in melee is going to be worse as you will not deal as much damage per hit as a fighter, you’ll be in combat longer, and thereby you will take more damage overall. The DoS PrE compensates for a lot of that.

    My first pally life was HotD. It was nice when leveling, but without proper gear (which takes time to acquire), the amount of damage he took in melee – especially in boss fights – was striking.

    Mind you, this was before the change to PRR.
    Now part of this will depend on level, but I'd say a more mobile pally with blurry/incorp and moderate prr will do better overall in hotd because of the extra heal amp to heal what does go thru. This is obviously in situations where you aren't doing a typical tank role of trying to hold a mob stationary for the rest of the party to kill while you soak the damage.

    Last time I checked a reconstruct and repair cost SP. This is, unless, you’re doing it from a scroll.

    And if you play like a lot of people play – which is standing in the middle of melee as opposed to the back of the pack – you tend to use a lot of quickened reconstructs.

    And yeah, I’m noticing that self-healing draws a lot of SP away from damage-dealing. As a fleshy AM – first-life, nonetheless – I had less of a problem with “staying power” mainly because a) you get SP increases with the AM PrE, and b) I wasn’t spending my SP on self-heals and burst healing. This means more SP into damage and other things.

    In fact, it often surprises me just how much that self-healing bleeds my SP pool overall.

    So, it is not as bizarre a claim as you make it out to be.
    This is true and yet it isn't. I can't count how many times I've been too busy healing the melee pile in a raid to do anything for an arcane that's at the edges. Without the ability to self heal they would be dead in that case and dead is zero dps. That said the big dps increase for am atm would be to go evo spec in shiradi, compared to pm that will do much more damage for much less sp, but a wf am will be able to do the same as a fleshy but still heal themselves when the feces hit the fan and the healer is too busy to toss them a heal and or already dead. This is why pm's and wf am/sorcs are so popular, it gives them a way to survive when things don't go well and when they do go well.


    Except for the part about the guys in the group who weren’t able to BYOH.

    Maybe you missed that part…
    Did they survive and you completed with no cleric/fvs/druid? Then it was a successful byoh run.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I had one of the first responses... and I was attempting to focus on the need to share the knowledge (in-game), and my response got mischaracterized into LRN2PLAY NOOB!

    Glad to see it come back to this direction.
    Yup and I still believe in my first post in the thread that classes with no inherent ability to self heal in any prc like barb and fighter should not be classified as easy classes in their descriptions but advanced classes.

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