Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 241
  1. #41
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Seminole, FL
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    I'm gonna add that I think hirelings are fantastic.

    Yes, they have issues that cause them to die alot.... mostly standing too close to high damaging monsters.... a close second is whatever it is that makes them go braindead and not heal for long periods of time....(part of this may be the former problem and failing concentration checks)

    .. but in general, they work very well IMO. Babysit better than many live players do. (although they cannot approach the value if a well played healer)

    I hate standing around all day.
    I also hate putting up LFMs and having to deal with some random guy joining and then telling me what we need to complete the quest...or other whining about "my" LFM/group/leading...etc.

    So I quiet often two and three man quests with friends and hires.
    In general my friends and I are self healing anyway, but I find it much more enjoyable to not have to worry as much about my health or to use a lot of my own scrolls and pots. (I have two rez clickies for the hires. )


    Another note: hard to remember my thought process seven years ago... but my first toon was a Rgr mutt back when the cap was 10.
    I don't remember being particularly needy of having a healer with me in a group.

    I do remember being poor.. using wands becausse they were cheaper.... sometimes not being able to afford wands....
    Soon I made alts.... some were Ftrs. Several times I remember having to stay back and range because of lack of healing.....

    Didn't take me too long to try to become totally self sufficient. (also to realise that Cure Light wands are very cheap.... )

    I remember many times wand-whipping a party to victory, because we did no thave a healer, or the healer was out of mana.

    I also learned that the best groups, or at least the least needy ones seemed to have a lot of Rangers in them...
    As the game evolved other classes became more self sufficient...

    But what I saw was a trend that a PUG with an odd mix of classes... many times with no Cleric.... (but less Ftrs and Brbs) would do very well.

    People kept puttin gup LFMs for tank.... for healers.... but I saw groups without either do very well.

    Part of this was the mindset of the players who would do a quest with an odd mix of classes.

    The general beleif at the time was you needed thi sperfect party mix to comlete anything difficult....
    But those players who just said "let's go" with whatever we had always made things work ... with ease.

    Again.. it wasn't the clsses... although they did tend to play self sufficicnet classes.... like Rangers.

    Soon the "exploiter" build caught on..... Many of my favorite players still play exploiters.

    Love that "no healer" ToD run I was priviladged to be a part of a few years back...

    Anyway.. in short... I have been a fan of self sufficiency long before BYOH became popular.


    But.. BYOH.... is not usually th eplaystyle I enjoy actually....

    Because BYOH seems to mean "every man for himself"....

    This is not what I enjoy.. or promoted on the forums years before most players became self sufficient...

    What I liked, wanted, and pushed for was for people just to run with whatever class joins and then heal each other to the best of their abilities.

    I loved those parties that did not have a Cleric, yet when someone got cursed there were three people racing to be the first to use their wands and remove the other guy's curse. (seemed to be a sense of pride to show off that they could do this and not need a Cleric)

    That is what I want!

    ... and lead the noobs by example.
    any decent player is going to start wondering why he is th eonly guy in the group with a low HP bar.... how everyone else keeps healing up.

    anyone with self pride is going to want to no tbe a sponge..... "I wanna be like those guys!"


    Group with them.
    Help them
    If you feel the need to suggest they buy pots...etc.... do so nicely.... I've been known to comment that somone was "an expensive date". lol. I said so jokingly and light heartedly, but I was trying to point out that I was spending a lot of my own money on resources to keep them alive... or rezzed....etc.

    But if they really are too much of a sponge, just pretend you are out of wands or scrolls.... (I actually only carry 10 res scrolls at a time, because if I use more than that on a group there is something wrong... and I don't need to go broke because of bad players....)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  2. #42
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    This thread makes me proud to be party of the DDO community. I mean all the posters, not just the OP. Lots of games' forums would have filled this thread with "Screw those noobs," "They need to L2P," et al. It's nice to see some good discussion and good-hearted people.
    Identifying a knowledge problem doesn't mean there is "blame" for the new player. I think there should be more (both in quantity and easy to find/read) in-game ways to learn about how to get more hp, be self sufficient and the value of buffs. Your immediate jump to assign bad motives speaks more about you than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    I love when I see BYOH groups on my pure fighter. I sign up immediately. I know these pros are going to bum-rush the adventure, wildly charging forth to ensure victory through attaining the most kills in the party. Who would notice me, naturally running a bit slower than these pros, always late to the fight but getting a few good swings in. Before you know it, the quest is done and I've garnered 1000xp/minute and did a fantastic job of defending myself from harm (as all pros must be capable of.)

    Fast, easy XP and best of all, no guilt--because you know those self-absorbed D-bags deserved it.
    Your actions do not go unnoticed. When I see that behavior, I assume the player is doing their best to contribute within the bounds of their self healing capability. In the late teens, my BYOH Barb doesn't have the gear/healing to be the first into a crowded room. I am however a close second and I'm on the enemy casters with a stun/trip and taking them out as fast as I can. You could easily do the same thing, but it seems your chosen approach is to call those you group with names and take pride in doing them wrong.

    Glad I play on a different server.

  3. #43
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    . . .no guilt--because you know those self-absorbed D-bags deserved it.
    So people who don't want to babysit your borderline worthless toons are d-bags? Really?

    I take it back, heck with 'em all

  4. #44
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    But.. BYOH.... is not usually th eplaystyle I enjoy actually....

    Because BYOH seems to mean "every man for himself"....
    Everything you describe that you like is what I attribute to the BYOH playstyle. It too bad that the name is being ruined by two groups of people:

    1. People who don't want to take responsibility for their red bar and rationalize this with personal attacks and tearing down the concept of BYOH.
    2. Elitist/Jerk players who use BYOH as an excuse for their behavior and make group 1 look like they are right.

  5. #45
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Everything you describe that you like is what I attribute to the BYOH playstyle. It too bad that the name is being ruined by two groups of people:

    1. People who don't want to take responsibility for their red bar and rationalize this with personal attacks and tearing down the concept of BYOH.
    2. Elitist/Jerk players who use BYOH as an excuse for their behavior and make group 1 look like they are right.
    3. The very existence of barbarians.

    Seriously, though it's a class that pretty much needs a babysitter in order for it to be all it can be. I hope Ravager gives that class some other options.

  6. #46
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    3. The very existence of barbarians.
    I'm actually doing ok with my byoh barb. I don't use frenzy, of course... but supreme cleave is quite usable. Currently I have hit a point where caster damage took a huge jump and my healing capability didn't. I have the spell absorb ioun stone, and I'm high enough to run it through to craft it to recharge... but I've been playing different toons...

  7. #47
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Seminole, FL
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    3. The very existence of barbarians.

    Seriously, though it's a class that pretty much needs a babysitter in order for it to be all it can be. I hope Ravager gives that class some other options.
    That is not entirely true. (but close)

    Plenty of Brb players I have seen that brin gpots and have a sense of survival.
    And in theory they should have enough HP to survive for a litle while without constant incoming heals.

    IMO, the good players should realise that the Barbarian will struggle to self heal, so they should help him.

    What I should see between fights is the Brb drinking pots and other players helping him heal up as best they can..... wands are still pretty cheap healing.....

    Of course,,, what I usually see is players who will not take the time to heal up between fights.....

    which... "is",,, partially because of the Barbarian class....
    DDO decided that Barbarian meens Rage... and tied most of the classes abilities to Raging..... so Brb players do actually "need" to hurry on to the next fight to be most effective.

    still.... the class attracts a certain type of player....... which adds to the problems.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  8. #48
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    That is not entirely true. (but close)

    Plenty of Brb players I have seen that brin gpots and have a sense of survival.
    And in theory they should have enough HP to survive for a litle while without constant incoming heals.

    IMO, the good players should realise that the Barbarian will struggle to self heal, so they should help him.

    What I should see between fights is the Brb drinking pots and other players helping him heal up as best they can..... wands are still pretty cheap healing.....

    Of course,,, what I usually see is players who will not take the time to heal up between fights.....

    which... "is",,, partially because of the Barbarian class....
    DDO decided that Barbarian meens Rage... and tied most of the classes abilities to Raging..... so Brb players do actually "need" to hurry on to the next fight to be most effective.

    still.... the class attracts a certain type of player....... which adds to the problems.......
    The issue is if you're not gonna frenzy and death frenzy their ain't much point in being one. SF pots are really the only option and they come with other complications.

  9. #49
    Community Member CheeseMilk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    1,840

    Default

    Those Elixirs are pretty good (p2w aside, as the lesser versions can be attained with now-reasonably-priced collectable trade ins). All of the "Heal Wounds" potions that drop in the Korthos quests should be replaced with a BTA version of the lowest level ones. They should add collectable nodes in Korthos that only drop collectables that can be traded for them, with a small tutorial on how collectors work. I think this would get people thinking about self-healing early on so that they can learn both the limitations and the possibilities.
    Last edited by CheeseMilk; 06-27-2013 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Edit: punctuation fail.

  10. #50
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CheeseMilk View Post
    Those Elixirs are pretty good (p2w aside, as the lesser versions can be attained with now reasonably-priced collectable trade ins). All of the "Heal Wounds" potions that drop in the Korthos quests should be replaced with a BTA version of the lowest level ones They should add collectable nodes in Korthos that only drop collectables that can be traded for them, with a small tutorial on how collectors work. I think this would get people thinking about self-healing early on so that they can learn both the limitations and the possibilities.
    +1

    Excellent idea.

  11. #51
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    12,798

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    Yes, they have issues that cause them to die alot.... mostly standing too close to high damaging monsters.... a close second is whatever it is that makes them go braindead and not heal for long periods of time....(part of this may be the former problem and failing concentration checks)
    Hirelings may be bad, but at least they're predictably bad; you can learn how to cope with their shortcomings. PUG healers, OTOH, are completely random in their level of badness. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on how chaotic you like your gameplay...

    Plus I find a useful test for any tank build is elite-soloing with a cleric hireling; if I can't keep one (brain-dead) healer alive long enough for it to keep me alive, I'm obviously doing something wrong as a tank.

  12. #52
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Divines that don't heal are gimp and their spot is better filled by someone else. It's as simple as that.
    Hi Welcome to the game. You see in D&D divines are good for more than heal botting

  13. #53
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Divines that don't heal are gimp and their spot is better filled by someone else. It's as simple as that. Now that divines have gone on strike from healing and people build their toons to be self sufficient, there's absolutely no reason to have a divine. Everything else divines can do, can be better done by another class.
    Lol I'm not getting into this argument again. I did not say that divines won't heal and if you choose to gimp a build of any class that can heal by purposefully choosing not to do so that is on you. I think that is the gist of it. If you can build healing into your toon then, sure, be proud that that you don't need a divnve in your group go ahead and get angry about it while you're at it. That makes lots of sense. At least in your anger at divines you learned to put healing in your build plan. Feel free to make up whatever false statement you want out of thin air from anyone posting and make an angry attack at them for your imagined and self created slight. Who can stop you from wanting to ignore a valuable part of so many classes and dump it onto someone else? Cetainly not I.

  14. #54
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    573

    Default

    The real issue is that the game has changed. DDO has gone from a game that attempted to create the PNP experience to a game that plays like most other games where DPS is king. All additions to difficulty have been in the form of greater monster HPS, greater monster DPS and less ability to neutralize monsters thru any means but brute DPS. OK, if that's the route you are going, then so be it, but you can't then ignore what almost all other games contain, an ability for all classes to be able to heal themselves. At this point they would be well served to give every character class an achievable ability that allows self healing thru a timer based heal type special ability. This is long a staple of any action/fantasy genre where the hero (mostly a melee type) takes loads of damage and appears down and out only to rejuvenate themselves and to proceed to end the big bad. Call if warrior's spirit and allow it to function as a heal effect with a timer.

    What makes more sense, giving all martial classes this ability or continuing to allow game exploitative cheese build juggernaut types to reign over the game?

  15. #55
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Lol I'm not getting into this argument again. I did not say that divines won't heal and if you choose to gimp a build of any class that can heal by purposefully choosing not to do so that is on you. I think that is the gist of it. If you can build healing into your toon then, sure, be proud that that you don't need a divine in your group go ahead and get angry about it while you're at it. That makes lots of sense. At least in your anger at divines you learned to put healing in your build plan. Feel free to make up whatever false statement you want out of thin air from anyone posting and make an angry attack at them for your imagined and self created slight. Who can stop you from wanting to ignore a valuable part of so many classes and dump it onto someone else? Certainly not I.
    What I wouldn't do for an edit button that worked and to actually be able to read what I'm typing.

  16. #56
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    3. The very existence of barbarians.

    Seriously, though it's a class that pretty much needs a babysitter in order for it to be all it can be. I hope Ravager gives that class some other options.
    I saw a couple of barbs before epic destinies that could take an entire section of a quest solo. There are some great barbs out there that are so capable that they almost need no healing. They are like 1 in 10,000 though.

  17. #57
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So you're playing a divine . . . that actually heals people? That's really not a melee.

    That's just natural selection. I still find it amazing people still play barbs, but that's a topic for another conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    at low levels even a Cleric has trouble keeping other people alive. if you're a fighter/ranger/pally/rogue/etc . . . who's still relying on CSW pots that's not an option.
    That's why keeping someone alive isn't what I'm doing with my 9 druid splash...I'd never join a group and claim to be a healer. I can't make any promises on that build about anything like that. What I can do is not be a jerk about things and if I see a guy low on health I toss him an un-meta'd greater vigor which will give back about 100-150 life or so in the next minute. I'm neither geared nor enhancement spec'd to be able to keep a group up - especially when in wolf form - but that doesn't mean I can replace a few pots for someone. Same thing if you have the ability to wand whip or scroll heal - especially if you have some W&S Mastery. Tossing one on someone that can't do that's just common courtesy, BYOH or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    What allows my fighter to self-hjeal for 99% of level 1-25? I have a metric ton of cash. new players just don't have this.
    That's what I meant in the helping out and educating part though. I can greatly reduce my incoming damage just by being the second guy in the room. When I'm running underlevel on stuff or on a squishier toon that single play decision makes it very affordable to self-heal in most content. New players won't have the plat to pot but they can definitely afford wand-whipping just from selling loot they get grouping...but only if they follow that first rule of being the second guy in the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I can try to instill common sense . . . but really?
    That's the problem with common sense in video games. Even for intelligent folks it can go out the window because first and foremost this is a game.

    Great story to illustrate. My brother-in-law's a bit older than I am so at the time of the story I think I was in my early 20's and he was 30. He was a former Marine that had been active duty. In everyday life he was honestly a bit on the careful side. Then we would log in to play Everquest. I've never seen someone die that much in all my days of online gaming. He was reckless, unobservant, and generally guaranteed to get you in to all sorts of trouble. It was a blast to play with him! Moral of the story: just because someone has common sense doesn't mean it will translate to DDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Do the pre-built paths still suck badly?
    It's not that. It's that you'd be surprised how often people don't realize that wands even exist. Or even if they know they exist they don't realize that their ranger can use them. Honestly, any completely new player to DDO that can wand-whip should be able to survive in a group doing so and afford the charges they burn each quest if they're careful. But if that player doesn't even know they can use wands? They have no chance.

    One thing that I'm going to try to do now that I haven't in the past is carry a couple non-guild cure serious wands to pass out when I get a truly new player. Cure serious pots...well, I'm not rich - don't have that kind of plat. But wands? To a guy that didn't realize he could use them. Heck yeah!
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  18. #58
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    The first step would be to correctly identify the gap. It has nothing to do with healing.

    It is a knowledge gap.

    There are posts how to make tons of money before you leave the harbor.
    There are posts how to use low level crafting to make really good twink gear.
    There are posts about how be self sufficient.
    There are posts about combat mechanics, stealth, you name it....

    The majority of the players see none of them.
    Of course, it was pointed out to you in another discussion that telling a new player on a melee class to UMD self-heal or chug CSW potions nonstop isn't realistic, and in the former case it's not realistic before a somewhat immutable level requirement to get the necessary points.

    Simply waving a hand and saying if built correctly someone would be adequately self healing through 99% of the content doesn't reflect any reality at all for many classes.

  19. #59
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The rainy side of earth
    Posts
    4,199

    Default

    You know, that DOES bring up a thought..

    If the beginner quests gave you proper healing advice, it could help quite a bit.
    Maybe having a small addition to the grotto where you have to buy and consume a heal potion/wand would be a good idea.
    Kind of how they have the crafting quest that gives you the materials and walks you through the process of how to cannith craft?

    Education is key here. The tooltip you get as a new build "You are low on health! (add in whatever that text is, I barely read it anymore after years of making characters)" could be expanded upon and branched out.

    Like:

    Oh, I see you are a "class here". If you're going to be battling "monsters", you should find a way to keep yourself alive. As a "Class Here", you have the following options of keeping yourself (and others!) alive: Potions, (add in whatever applies to said class here).
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  20. #60
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    You know, that DOES bring up a thought..

    If the beginner quests gave you proper healing advice, it could help quite a bit.
    Maybe having a small addition to the grotto where you have to buy and consume a heal potion/wand would be a good idea.
    Kind of how they have the crafting quest that gives you the materials and walks you through the process of how to cannith craft?

    Education is key here. The tooltip you get as a new build "You are low on health! (add in whatever that text is, I barely read it anymore after years of making characters)" could be expanded upon and branched out.

    Like:

    Oh, I see you are a "class here". If you're going to be battling "monsters", you should find a way to keep yourself alive. As a "Class Here", you have the following options of keeping yourself (and others!) alive: Potions, (add in whatever applies to said class here).
    I don't disagree with your suggestion here but at the same time, if the point we're at is saying that being on a second (or greater) life, or funding a lower level character by a higher level one for pots and wands is a necessary or normal, expected part of "playing correctly", we are dealing with an issue much wider than whether or not individual players are playing correctly.

    What I dislike from many of the vets here in the forum is the persistent mentality because they can scarcely remember running content prior to being on multiple reincarnations with access to optimal gear and endless funds, any challenge or difficulty for any class, build or group in that content is individual player deficiency.

Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload