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  1. #21
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Specific vet players and divine-focused classes getting the stick out of their collective backsides and throw a heal every now and again.
    While a divine is the best healer in a group they aren't the only healing capable classes. Once you have played a divine it takes no time at all to realize that being able to heal is the single most useful ability in the game and most of the classes are not difficult to get this ability on if you choose to build it in even in a pure classed build.

    The only ones off of the top of my head that can't be easily turned into self healers are barbs and fighters and with some practice you can make them at least hard to kill. There are a few players out there that even manage to get healing in there on these.

    The stick really does go both ways. Almost anyone can heal if they would bother to build it in. Why make a divine go it alone? Bards know this. I've backed up the main healer on my arcane archer anytime it's needed because I built for it and I have nothing else to do with that nice pool of spell points I made sure I had for self healing. Only a minimum of players even bother and that is why there aren't any divines to be found. Players who could back them up instead just drop it all in their lap.

  2. #22
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    I actually think the enhancement update as it appears in the alpha can partially address this.

    You only need 5 levels in a class to get to the tier 5 abilities. For some builds this is going to make it a lot easier fit in levels of a self healing class. For example, a popular (if you are willing to call any thief acrobat build popular) thief acrobat build from not too long ago was 13 rogue/6 monk/1 fighter. In the enhancement update, you could do something like 12 fvs/6 monk/2rogue and it would be a hell of a lot more viable as a DPS option than it would be now. It would obviously also have legitimate self healing capabilities. Having at least 11 or 12 levels in some sort of self healing class, whether it be fvs, cleric, or sorc or wiz for wf, and doing decent melee DPS is going to be a lot more viable in the enhancement update. Sure, there are specific builds now and from the past that do melee DPS and self heal (tukaw and juggernaut to name a couple), but the update will allow for more creativity and variety.

    Again, this is a way to only partially bridge the gap and obviously doesn't apply to classes like barbarian and builds where people do not want to sacrifice granted abilities that come with actual levels in melee classes.

  3. #23
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    To address the gap in self healing at end game, and by this I mean EE's, in a perfect world all non barb characters would wear a devotion item, reserve a feat for empower healing, wear something for sp if they don't get it naturally, and come with both cocoon and rejuvenation twisted. Cocoon would be for self, rejuvenation would be cast on another group member every few seconds. People could pair up and be responsible for only casting rejuv on their partner so they don't have to red bar watch or lose focus on melee aspects of the battle at hand.

    This sort of gear and approach wouldn't be necessary for most of the classes that run EE's right now, but it would allow a group only consisting of pure fighters that don't enjoy chugging silver flame potions to run content that they normally wouldn't. And yes, cocoon could almost cover you alone, especially if you have enough healing spell power, but if everyone packs rejuvenation then you are really sitting pretty.

    Again, this is a perfect world scenario, not a realistic one. It's just nice to think about the twists and items being used like they potentially could. You wouldn't have to see the same select few builds in every end game quest.

  4. #24
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Before MotU, I would have agreed with you.

    Starting with MotU, the devs have been on a tear, nerfing the offensive capabilities of my cleric, while giving melee toons really obnoxiously overpowered DPS.

    Apparently, class balance for melees means giving them really obnoxiously overpowered DPS, at the price of making it a little difficult to heal themselves. I say a little, because between pots and Epic Destiny options, they seem quite capable of healing themselves, unless of course they have a stick up their backside.

    Far be it for me to disrupt the devs vision of class balance.

    Apparently, my cleric is an easy button toon since he can heal himself. I'd be willing to accept that opinion, from anyone who has ever soloed the hardest content on EE with a cleric. For everyone else, they are simply kidding themselves if they believe a cleric is an easy button toon in any content that actually matters.

    We are in the post-cooperative phase of DDO. That is pretty much the lesson of a lot of DDO at the moment, including BYOH. Only a fool would play as a team player in a game where the devs only listen to people who are only interested in playing in a self absorbed manner.

    Until the time where the devs decide to reestablish some reasonable balance to the game, similar to what existed before MotU, my cleric will be played like a melee toon, only caring for himself.

    I mean, its not like I am demanding that I get to run through the dungeon killing everything myself, while expecting a real human being to follow me around like a puppy dog and take all responsible to ensure I survive. That would be crazy.
    Holy wow, bitter much?

    First, I think if they're getting all the way into epic (without soloing) without getting any helpful advice there's already been a breakdown somewhere. The trick is catching them (new players) at low levels, and "taking them under your wing" so to speak. Obviously, this isn't for everybody, and if you have no interest in helping people make the transition from noob to newb to capable, then of course you shouldn't be. Certainly nobody is required to teach self sufficiency.

    At the risk of veering off topic, I must disagree that the cooperative days are behind us. Even a divineless group of BYOHers generally must cooperate, at least on some level. No, I'm not saying anyone/everyone should be required to act as a babysitter. Many people hate watching other peoples' red bars, some simply aren't up to the challenge of doing so while still meaningfully contributing in other ways too; both cases are fine. Those of us who both can, and aren't annoyed by it, often do regardless of what toon we're on.

    Many of the new players who show up and expect "babysitters" are probably coming from either the many "trinity" style games out there, or "balanced party" pnp groups. I don't think it's right to look down on them for coming in and expecting more of what they've always known, nor is it productive to be unfriendly or hostile as you explain "there ain't no babysitters here noob, figure it out or go home!"

    Recommending that any/all new players to a multi-player game should solo until they figure it out seems absurd to me. I know I certainly didn't come here to play with myself (giggidy), I came for a multiplayer experience. Had I not been able to learn the vast differences between D&D and DDO from those kind enough to help, I would probably be playing something else.

    I'm sure most of us at least know another player or even guild that doesn't mind or actually enjoys teaching the fresh faces. Making a habit of recommending to a new player "keep an eye out for (x)" would be a good thing... Of course if you don't pug then you probably don't ever play with new players anyway, and really have no part in a "teaching discusion."

    The key thing to remember is without new players, games die. If we're constantly rude, unwelcoming and unhelpful then who will want to play with us?
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-27-2013 at 12:58 AM.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  5. #25
    Community Member RyonsAlt's Avatar
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    I think another issue is what could qualify as a healer. As someone said, not all veteran groups require a healer, but we wait anyways. Also, who can do what to help keep the party alive.

    For the content some are running, a willing bard would do just fine. They have crowd control, buffs, and limited healing ability. Someone who plays a bard well is not someone to be taken for granted.

    Druids are great healers, imo. A little bit of healing enhancements and finding somewhere to slot devotion could go a long way as a back up healer, or even a primary healer if built for it.

    Artificers have healing infusions and buffs to help mitigate damage, UMD, and a full artificer casts spells off a wand or clicky at level 20.

    Light Monks have the curse of healing to help with hp recovery. Dark Monks have Earthark:Earth (Paint Touch) which causes monsters to stop taking actions against them. Both kinds of monks are capable of taking stunning fist.

    Fighters, barbarians, and some paladins can trip to help prevent damage, it doesn't even break your attack chain to my knowledge.

    Warforged SHOULD be taking healer's friend to help lessen the drain on spell points. If at all possible I'd say that a melee warforged with a high strength should try to get an Epic Blademark's Docent for that Vertigo +15 to help trip key mobs such as clerics or casters.

    There's even more to be said, but we have all these tools at our disposal and we choose to rely on heal scrolls and chugging pots as a form of self-healing. The majority of this probably is just knowledge that people overlook, as vets we should be teaching them. As new players they should at least listen to what we have to say.

    The majority of the gap is there because we choose to ignore tools at our disposal. At least, that's how I see it. Maximum DPS isn't our only option in this game.

  6. #26
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Seeing is believing though. I could tell a person all day how they should build their toons or where they are making mistakes and they aren't going to listen and I wouldn't either.

    Was running a long time ago with a guildie on her cleric and I saw that she had made some mistakes in her build with her healing. So I changed to mine without saying anything and healed the next quest or two. When I was done she was asking me how to build a cleric to get the healing that I was throwing. Make them come to you by show and not tell.

  7. #27

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    This thread makes me proud to be party of the DDO community. I mean all the posters, not just the OP. Lots of games' forums would have filled this thread with "Screw those noobs," "They need to L2P," et al. It's nice to see some good discussion and good-hearted people. That said let me diversify the content herein.

    I love when I see BYOH groups on my pure fighter. I sign up immediately. I know these pros are going to bum-rush the adventure, wildly charging forth to ensure victory through attaining the most kills in the party. Who would notice me, naturally running a bit slower than these pros, always late to the fight but getting a few good swings in. Before you know it, the quest is done and I've garnered 1000xp/minute and did a fantastic job of defending myself from harm (as all pros must be capable of.)

    Fast, easy XP and best of all, no guilt--because you know those self-absorbed D-bags deserved it.
    Katavina Leagond - Cannith

  8. #28
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    new player doesent mean stupid player.

    I started this game with 3 barbarian lives, was fun from 1 to 20.
    A new player can learn, adapt, learn how to mitigate incoming dmg, use a vampirism/bodyfeeder weapon, throw in an hire when is the only way to survive, learn to stay close healers, benefit from auras... and skip elite byoh TR nudist only groups if he cant stand the challenge.

    Playing a druid now, I found amazing that new player mostly write thanks when they get some unexpected healing from me. Hard times from ddo newbies grouping, probably worst then my beginning. Its turbine design and vets attitude...

  9. #29
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So how do we bridge that gap?
    Give all players at all levels access to rejuvenation cucoon.

  10. #30
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    The main problem I have with newer players is simply a lack of health on my healing druid life. It isn't a BYOH problem, it's a they aren't really heal able since they go pop and don't/can't stand in heals since their base health is too low to remain close to combat. Healing newer players in elite BB content they have never experienced is really, really hard.

    To bridge the gap you would need to make newer players end up with ~10 more health per level from all of:

    Switch Drow with WF as a reputation reward, or make WF free and redesign Drow.

    Make Dwarf or WF the recommended races for all classes for new players, with a recommended starting Con of 18 for all classes.

    Have some sort of new player "learning HP feat" that gives health/lvl and goes away as you approach level 8 or so.

    Popup hints for false life, recommended con levels, toughness feat, and +con items built into the game. A popup hint that appears on new level gain saying they may want to start checking AH for X item, which may increase your hit points by 10-40 (or whatever), or to take toughness, which combined with enhancements can increase your health by up to Y.

    Change elite BB so difficulties other than elite are run 1-15.

    Otherwise, do you know how hard it is to bring a 175-303 health party through a dungeon where there are multiple shamans casting ball or chain lightning for 200 AoE and the end fight is a dragon with a 300 point breath attack? Been there, done that, only way to do it is to use a hireling tank or tank it yourself while chugging pots.

    http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ly6hxt.jpg

    Of course, maybe we don't want to fully bridge that gap. They have to have something to aspire to. But as it is, the new player pretty much goes splat.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 06-27-2013 at 04:57 AM.

  11. #31
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Njohrd View Post
    its turbine design and vets attitude...
    It is ten times the latter than the former. In all truth, the games design is as appropriate for a party of role specialists/trinity players as it is byoh/self sufficiency. That's the beauty of DDO, all things are possible (though not nessacerily recommendable )

    There was a time in DDO when almost all parties had and needed healers. BYOH/be self sufficient came later; and when it did start showing up in lfms, it was the oddity. If was to try and pin point when it started becoming "the norm" I would say somewhere in the time between the introduction of Lods March Plaza and the introduction of the Artificer class; though again that's just by my recollection, others may remember it differently.

    But it was deffinately due to player attitudes on both sides of the equasion. I deffinately do remember when a rash of complaints started popping up about healers being blamed for deaths, I even heard a few of those unreasonable tantrums, both as a bystander and as a recipient. I really remember it being over the course of only a few months that the divines went into hiding, going "anonymous" so they wouldn't get endless "please come heal our group" tells, just to risk ridicule if they failed to keep healthy that WF Barb with no healers' friend spamming all his self-abusing attacks and dropping his own health bar faster than the mobs could do it for him. Those were dark and ridiculous days...

    ...And so, with the "healers" in hiding, we had to either figure out how to run quests without them, or be willing to spend as much as an hour waiting for one... That, or use *shudders* hirelings. That's when (& why) I noticed BYOH become main stream, and it was not too long that after I noticed the "no noobs" lfms becoming more common place, largely because (as still today) noobs don't know how (or what) to (do) to BYOH.

    So while the games design allows for it, it really was/is player attitudes that necessitated & maintain the need for it.

    The best we can do is help coach those willing to learn, because getting some vets to return to playing "healers" (Clerics & Favored Souls who watch red bars as well as whatever else they want to do) probably just isn't going to happen, as shown by GerMaxs' post back on P1 (even if he is a bit of an extreme example).
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    1 change barbarian, rogue, and fighter in the descriptions to indicate they are challenging classes.
    2 change druid, wizard, paladin, ranger, cleric, and favored soul to indicate they are easier classes due to the ability to self heal
    3 Profit
    i find this quite funny too.. how far from the truth these descriptions are..

    My first melee toon had an awful time becoz i couldn't heal myself. I was expected by the ppl i grouped with to have pots and i couldn't afford one. That realization forced me to stop playing him at lvl 10 and make a cleric.

    I think the easiest way to bridge the gap would be to make potions cheaper or maybe give them as quest rewards even, kind of like how there are Mnemonic pots for casters, let there be more pots/stronger pots for melees too. that would just be fair.

  13. #33
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosEmperorDragon View Post
    This thread makes me proud to be party of the DDO community. I mean all the posters, not just the OP. Lots of games' forums would have filled this thread with "Screw those noobs," "They need to L2P," et al. It's nice to see some good discussion and good-hearted people. That said let me diversify the content herein.

    I love when I see BYOH groups on my pure fighter. I sign up immediately. I know these pros are going to bum-rush the adventure, wildly charging forth to ensure victory through attaining the most kills in the party. Who would notice me, naturally running a bit slower than these pros, always late to the fight but getting a few good swings in. Before you know it, the quest is done and I've garnered 1000xp/minute and did a fantastic job of defending myself from harm (as all pros must be capable of.)

    Fast, easy XP and best of all, no guilt--because you know those self-absorbed D-bags deserved it.
    It's odd that as one of those self-absorbed D-bags I would give you that exact advice on how to play if you're a little light on heals in a BYOH group. Stay at the rear of the group, let the group members who can take a beating get the aggro, then pile in and contribute as much as you can. All you need is a few pots to keep you topped up. In fact, I've always found that the best way to shame a divine into healing me is to start drinking pots.

    The only groups this doesn't work for are quests where the party will want to split up. BYOH Wiz King is probably going to be hard to run that way when you split up for the towers.

  14. #34
    Community Member BlacktigerEU's Avatar
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    Default Still take hireling

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is a big thing that stops vets from running with new players. Lots of discussion about encouraging grouping going on and this is a big part of that issue.

    I'm mostly referring to melees.

    Vets simply don't need healers in their groups for 99% of the content.

    New players do. They don't have the resources, meta-knowledge, etc . . . to be completely self-sufficient and keep up with leveling vets. Even stacks of CSW pots are too expensive to expect a new player to have.

    it's not fair for vets to wait while groups fill especially since nobody wants to heal any more. Simply put if I don't need a healer for something it's selfish of the person who does to expect me to wait.

    The only thing I do when pugging is I will allow people to summon hirelings. I know a lot of vets cringe at those but I understands it's really the only affordable method of healing for new players.

    So how do we bridge that gap?
    I've been playing this game since launch and when hirelings were released I was overjoyed, and I still take my hireling healer out. At level 25 my fighter still has good old Albus to keep him company.
    When I see an LFM with "...BYOH..." in it I just ignore it. Most, not all, of the content in this game can be "soloed" with a hireling healer. There just isn't a bottle of healing that can equate to the Heal spell. The last thing I want to be doing is stopping after every fight to chug down pots. In my opinion: those players that expect every build out there to be uber and be able to self heal are just silly.

    So my solution to the "BYOH" problem: just ignore those LFMs because chances are you won't enjoy running with those people. They fall into the Elitist play-style.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The only thing I do when pugging is I will allow people to summon hirelings. I know a lot of vets cringe at those but I understands it's really the only affordable method of healing for new players.
    One healbot hireling in the group is fine. If someone wants to call one then they also take on the responsibly of healing other non-healing types in the party. Yes, I know it means I am certain to lose 5% but really when I pug I assume 50/50 of -10% anyway and the healbot might help limit it to -5%

    Prior to the Guild vendors I used to hand out a stack of 100 CSW pots to any truly new player. Sadly I only buy guild pots now and its just not worth carrying unbound ones as well to give away. I have however been known to hand out some cash (although that's usually post-quest)

  16. #36
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    Not sure if its been said in this thread yet but why not tackle the root cause being the lack of PuGging Divines


    A Divine is all too often a convenient kicking post for a poor players ineptitude whether those players be noobs or (to a lesser degree) vets.



    Sadly these people cannot be educated and the decent large majority of the community suffer for the actions of the ignorant few.


    A positive step would be the next time you see a Divine get unjustly bawled out, speak up for them right then and there - sending them a /tell after say the griefers were wrong and out of order is a bit too late
    Corazonroto


    The Spellswords - Ghallanda

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    While a divine is the best healer in a group they aren't the only healing capable classes. Once you have played a divine it takes no time at all to realize that being able to heal is the single most useful ability in the game and most of the classes are not difficult to get this ability on if you choose to build it in even in a pure classed build.

    The only ones off of the top of my head that can't be easily turned into self healers are barbs and fighters and with some practice you can make them at least hard to kill. There are a few players out there that even manage to get healing in there on these.

    The stick really does go both ways. Almost anyone can heal if they would bother to build it in. Why make a divine go it alone? Bards know this. I've backed up the main healer on my arcane archer anytime it's needed because I built for it and I have nothing else to do with that nice pool of spell points I made sure I had for self healing. Only a minimum of players even bother and that is why there aren't any divines to be found. Players who could back them up instead just drop it all in their lap.
    Divines that don't heal are gimp and their spot is better filled by someone else. It's as simple as that. Now that divines have gone on strike from healing and people build their toons to be self sufficient, there's absolutely no reason to have a divine. Everything else divines can do, can be better done by another class.

  18. #38
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post

    Until the time where the devs decide to reestablish some reasonable balance to the game, similar to what existed before MotU, my cleric will be played like a melee toon, only caring for himself.

    I mean, its not like I am demanding that I get to run through the dungeon killing everything myself, while expecting a real human being to follow me around like a puppy dog and take all responsible to ensure I survive. That would be crazy.
    Show me on the doll where the bad barbarian touched you.

    In "old" DDO it was never really and issue that the FyS was a borderline OP class because in addition to being a killing-machine that had the responsibility of keeping the melees alive. Post MoTU killed this.

  19. #39
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fTdOmen View Post
    Give all players at all levels access to rejuvenation cucoon.
    Can't work without SP.

    Though VENDOR selable potions, not the P2Win BS we have now, that did something similar would be a good thing.

  20. #40
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    There was a time in DDO when almost all parties had and needed healers.
    No. There was NEVER a time that ANY group needed a healer, and the best groups contained clerics that were NOT pure healers. People have been soloing the hardest quests/raids in the game since its very beginning, and at no point did having a "healer" in the party become manditory.

    But you are correct that the problem here is actually a knowledge gap. Take GermanicusMaximus and his belief that melee have been given horribly overpowered DPS. No, they haven't. They have to run back and forth between mobs to get any kills, while ranged and casters are taking them out before they ever reach the party. Sure, melee can make boss fights go faster (and that's probably the purpose for which their "DPS" was intended), but that usually saves only about 20 seconds out of a 20 minute quest. If completion is on the line, the last person you want to enlist is a melee.

    This entire thread is full of misconceptions. The biggest, by far, is that new players even WANT to play with vets. For the most part, they don't. Actual gamers like to learn a game on their own - learning IS the entertainment. Turbine has also recognized, without reservation, that having new players group with vets is BAD for their bottom line. That is why they came up with the bravery bonus streak system, and why they continue to make it feasible to play the game without needing to invite experienced people along to show others "the ropes."

    It's threads like these that confuse the issues and lead to more bad game design. The most severe issues with gameplay are the following:

    1) At high levels, blue bars contribute vastly superior ability to complete and deal with problems. A group full of blue bars is often a ridiculous easy button, especially if they can resort to mana pots.

    2) At basically every level, high-powered casters can make other members in the party superfluous - and that fact does NOT make people happy.

    3) At low to mid levels, Artificers have even more power to make others superfluous (they have equivalent ranged power that is sustainable and has a longer range, plus the turrets).

    4) Power creep has made the game extremely difficult to manage, and severe issues keep cropping up.

    These four things are what is causing the game to lose subscribers. The remaining subscribers are what is causing the game to lose new players. In my opinion, there is little hope for DDO at this point, but at least a lack of decent competition (alternative game) is letting me stick around to read threads like this one.

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