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  1. #221
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yeah, some will argue with me on this but I'd say that's because the concentration skill is a newb trap. Quicken is the only solution at higher levels to be able to cast while getting hit with anything. It's another case of something that should be spelled out to new players, at higher levels incoming damage will be high enough to make concentration checks impossible. At epic level a single arrow from an archer will make all checks a failure.
    I somewhat disagree. You may be right on EE (I generally don't run EE), but on EH or beloe I rarely lose a concentration check, even when getting peppered.

    Though one hit in elite Coal Chamber was enough for me to lose concentration. Honestly, I think something was slightly skewed there. I don't recall any elites that I ran in heroic from about 14 to 20 - and this includes RWTD, Ritual Sacrifice, and Sins of Attrition - being as tough on the concentration checks as Coal Chamber.

  2. #222
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I somewhat disagree. You may be right on EE (I generally don't run EE), but on EH or beloe I rarely lose a concentration check, even when getting peppered.

    Though one hit in elite Coal Chamber was enough for me to lose concentration. Honestly, I think something was slightly skewed there. I don't recall any elites that I ran in heroic from about 14 to 20 - and this includes RWTD, Ritual Sacrifice, and Sins of Attrition - being as tough on the concentration checks as Coal Chamber.
    Someone did the math on concentration a couple weeks ago but with the forum downgrade I can't find it. The threshhold for the damage breaking a conc check is pretty low. That said imo concentration checks are probably the combat system that translates the worst from pnp to an mmo. To me quicken is a must on any non buff spell because if you are in combat taking damage you will not make your check usually at the worst possible moment and then your dead. I pick up quicken at level 15 or so on all my blue bars, turn it off for buff spells and leave it on for everything else. The only exception to this is on a shiradi caster for mm / cm

  3. #223

  4. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    A better test? How about running elite Coal Chamber with those caster trogs who a) slow you with the stink attack, b) cast displacement the minute they see you, and c) never run out of spell points. Furthermore, their attacks regularly break high-concentration scores, so that 180 HP a pop you think you’re getting may be rather hit-and-miss.

    You only solution at that point is poison pots (they don’t last long enough to have much of an effect), high saves (which are overcome), a true seeing item (rare piece of equipment), maybe Dispel Magic (doesn’t work all that well in my opinion), Vorpal strikes (low instance of occurring), trips / stuns (again, low instance of occurring) and so on. The only thing that might help is maybe a proof against poison item, and casting zeal for the potential of a double-strike.
    My pally does indeed have high saves, poison pots are trivial to use, and he had true seeing by level 15 on his first life -- my very first life on any alt -- via the sora kell set.

    In short, they can outlast you. And because you’re in on elite, you’re going to reserve your SP for when you really need them because you only get 1 hit on that shrine, so you’re going to have to resort to pots and maybe wands. You don’t DARE cast neutralize poison in this quest, as you’ll most likely lose all of your SP to resolving the trog stench problem, and have nothing for healing.

    You’ll get creamed.
    This is not my experience in the game. I don't know why concentration doesn't work for you, but it works great for me. In fact, I call BS on your anecdote. Get a screenshot.

    However, I’d dispute having a trinket. There are a lot of conditionals applied to that piece of gear, namely having to buy one or getting very lucky with a rare drop
    Neither the rare drop nor shards of power are BTA. The only way to get a BTA craftable trinket is to buy it from the store. That's why I recommend everyone buy a single craftable trinket, because you can then pass that single trinket around to every new alt you roll up. I already explained this, I thought pretty clearly.

    Furthermore, assuming that any toon will have access to the appropriate ship buff is also a stretch. In fact, from my experience, I am seeing a declining trend of people allowing non-guildies to use their ship buffs as of late. So the way I see it, taking a more pessimistic view, you looking at heals maybe in the 130 – 150-ish range, and not 179.
    I call BS on this. The house jorasco ship buff is super low level. My very first alt was in a 2-man guild we leveleup up from scratch and we very quickly got the house j ship buff on our tiny little boat. LONG before I got to vale on that first life.

    Again, I think a lot of people who talk about this BYOH thing, and how everyone can do it is akin to living in a bubble.
    I think you're living in a bubble, and worse, I think you're making the game more difficult for new players by spreading your nonsense. I do not claim gear, past lives, 32pt builds, or pay classes/races are required. I'm saying a first life without gear, using 28pt builds and f2p classes & races can make self-sufficient characters with plenty of self-healing.

  5. #225
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    But then frustrated customers, especially the newer one's who don't know all the workarounds and workthroughs are also more likely to just uninstall then happy customers I would think.
    True thats what I think.........but maybe those people at turbine don't think the same way? never mind im just being negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Or just make the classes with no real innate self healing easier to heal. Add some form of progressive healing amp so that their limited self healing options go further and divines don't feel the are such mana sponges. By progressive I mean something along the lines of how the game deals with bonus SP's for sorcs/FVS's or maybe something like each level in class/10 additive healing amp. So 1 level would be a whopping 0.1%, a second would add 0.2% for a total of 0.3% a third would bring them to 0.6% etcetera. This to keep it from being a big splash perk.
    I guess, couple that with some better forms of pots like lesser silver flame pots or something? Been able to self heal yourself a bit is good to save you in case then healer doesn't hit you in time. Maybe some more heal over time effects for all the divine classes? make the druid ones still the best but make healing others more easy so you feel less like your playing wack a mole with red bars?
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-03-2013 at 07:40 PM.

  6. #226
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    ...make healing others more easy so you feel less like your playing wack a mole with red bars?
    Lol diggin' the "whack-a-mole" reference

    However, I highly doubt there's anything Turbine can do to get the "I can't multitas-" er, I mean "It's no fun just watching red bars all the time" crowd to play divines that heal other players too. If all you (as a player) can do with a "healer" is nanny-bot, then that's all you can do.

    A lot of the rest who are capable of playing divines that can heal a group and more were soured on the experience (by the very players that counted on their services and now bemoan their absence) and simply refuse to come out of their guild/channel comfort zone. Again, probably nothing Turbine can do there either.

    So now we wait for the next crop of newby healers to come along. I've actually started seeing an up-tic in the number of pugging healers lately, especially at the lower levels, but they're almost all new players & mostly seem to be avoiding "IP, BYOH, TRtrain, know it" style lfms.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  7. #227
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Lol diggin' the "whack-a-mole" reference

    However, I highly doubt there's anything Turbine can do to get the "I can't multitas-" er, I mean "It's no fun just watching red bars all the time" crowd to play divines that heal other players too. If all you (as a player) can do with a "healer" is nanny-bot, then that's all you can do.

    A lot of the rest who are capable of playing divines that can heal a group and more were soured on the experience (by the very players that counted on their services and now bemoan their absence) and simply refuse to come out of their guild/channel comfort zone. Again, probably nothing Turbine can do there either.

    So now we wait for the next crop of newby healers to come along. I've actually started seeing an up-tic in the number of pugging healers lately, especially at the lower levels, but they're almost all new players & mostly seem to be avoiding "IP, BYOH, TRtrain, know it" style lfms.
    Yeah I agree.......some of those people though can make even the most skillful multitasker divine feel like he had to eyeball those redbars 24/7 and nothing else to avoid a *ding*. I've seen many a good divine just get frustrated with certain players, often just letting them die and stay dead after a while. Theres a lot of good offensive favoured souls in my guild who are also good healers.Though it looks promising for your server on the new healer front.
    I tend to avoid some of those lfms myself, i don't mind the byoh too much as I can do that, but know it often makes me wonder how well do they expect you to know it? And when I have joined those *know it lfms* I was supprised on a number of occasions to find the party leader didn't know the quest at all. But im going off topic again.

  8. #228
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Though one hit in elite Coal Chamber was enough for me to lose concentration. Honestly, I think something was slightly skewed there.
    I solo zerged it yesterday to flag for shroud before taking 20, there wasn't anything strange in there..just run invis and stop killing bats/scorps if you hit red DA. Shaman trogs are annoying cause they dispel, other than that they are as easy to kill as every other trog in there. If you are having problem with concentration just use quicken, the spell casting animation on all classes except sorc is so slow that i usually use quicken for everything, unless i need to save sp for some odd reason.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  9. #229
    Community Member eden2760's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled175 View Post
    Simple indeed. That is like saying that babies should only hang out with babies until they are adults. Be an adult.
    ...or like saying every adult in existence has the responsibility to take care of every other child in existence....

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  10. #230
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eden2760 View Post
    ...or like saying every adult in existence has the responsibility to take care of every other child in existence....

    Well, it does "Take a Village"...

  11. #231
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yeah, some will argue with me on this but I'd say that's because the concentration skill is a newb trap. Quicken is the only solution at higher levels to be able to cast while getting hit with anything. It's another case of something that should be spelled out to new players, at higher levels incoming damage will be high enough to make concentration checks impossible. At epic level a single arrow from an archer will make all checks a failure.
    Quicken doesnt work for scrolls. Concentration does. Skills can be maxed out to high values nowdays, and not every hit is a 200+ point hit in EE. Not to mention if someone has improved evasion that halves the damage even on a failed save, which can bring the damage down to a level where concentration will allow that scroll to go off.

    For casting, yeah use quicken.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #232
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My pally does indeed have high saves, poison pots are trivial to use, and he had true seeing by level 15 on his first life -- my very first life on any alt -- via the sora kell set.
    Yeah, because those marks are just lying all around for someone to pick up.

    I’ve got seven toons, all of them have run those two chains for the various marks, mostly on elite. We’re talking probably several dozen times over. I’ve had maybe three drop in that period.

    A first-like sora kell set is unrealistic. Maybe you got lucky to get one. Not everybody will.

    Again…living in a bubble.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This is not my experience in the game. I don't know why concentration doesn't work for you, but it works great for me. In fact, I call BS on your anecdote. Get a screenshot.
    I’ll see what I can do. I only got one wizzy that may possibly be in range, and I haven’t played him in a while. I’m not sure where in concentration score is setting ATM.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Neither the rare drop nor shards of power are BTA. The only way to get a BTA craftable trinket is to buy it from the store. That's why I recommend everyone buy a single craftable trinket, because you can then pass that single trinket around to every new alt you roll up. I already explained this, I thought pretty clearly.
    Yeah. Again, telling people to buy stuff isn’t a decent solution. I thought I was pretty clear on that too.

    Even if the shard drops are BTC, you can still craft the Cannith shards on your crafting toon, and pass them via the shared bank without having to buy a special trinket that the crafter can fashion and pass back to the toon.

    Binding bound shards to an item - any item - requires no crafting levels whatsoever, if I recall correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I call BS on this. The house jorasco ship buff is super low level.
    What part of “not everyone is in a guild” don’t you get?

    Oh wait, I know what your solution is: make your own guild so you can have your House J ship buff…

    And for those people in a guild, I guess your next piece of advice is just to go around and change one of the limited number of shines on a low-level boat to have the House J healer in it. Yeah, THAT will go over well with the guildies…who want the other shrines…

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My very first alt was in a 2-man guild we leveleup up from scratch and we very quickly got the house j ship buff on our tiny little boat. LONG before I got to vale on that first life.
    Not everyone is in a guild, wants to start a guild, and so on.

    As a matter of fact – not sure how things are on your server – but there seems to be a trend of people who just don’t want to be in a guild.

    Again, not valid advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I think you're living in a bubble, and worse, I think you're making the game more difficult for new players by spreading your nonsense. I do not claim gear, past lives, 32pt builds, or pay classes/races are required. I'm saying a first life without gear, using 28pt builds and f2p classes & races can make self-sufficient characters with plenty of self-healing.
    So, according to you, a decent uber self-healing pally requires:
    1) Sticking with human (which, actually, is not bad advice),
    2) Buying stuff,
    3) Making your own guild,
    4) Dictating to your guild leader what shines they must have on the ship,
    5) Getting lucky in the Lordsmarch quests.
    And I’m the one “living in a bubble, or worse”…

  13. #233
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Or just make the classes with no real innate self healing easier to heal. Add some form of progressive healing amp so that their limited self healing options go further and divines don't feel the are such mana sponges. By progressive I mean something along the lines of how the game deals with bonus SP's for sorcs/FVS's or maybe something like each level in class/10 additive healing amp. So 1 level would be a whopping 0.1%, a second would add 0.2% for a total of 0.3% a third would bring them to 0.6% etcetera. This to keep it from being a big splash perk.
    We tried to have that type of conversation on these forums once. People flocked into those threads in droves to post that because those classes do "insanely more DPS" than the self sufficient classes, they should not be able to heal as well. I then pointed out the direct contradiction that statement was in references to casters, and explained that due to the lack of a "holy trinity" structure in this game, that some classes just needed better healing options.

    I also think its hilarious that many of those same people were all for healing abilities to be accessible to all in destinies, but when we talked about having stuff like that available in heroic levels, the collective cholesterol count of the thread went up 50 points.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #234
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, because those marks are just lying all around for someone to pick up.

    I’ve got seven toons, all of them have run those two chains for the various marks, mostly on elite. We’re talking probably several dozen times over. I’ve had maybe three drop in that period.

    A first-like sora kell set is unrealistic. Maybe you got lucky to get one. Not everybody will.

    Again…living in a bubble.
    drop rates were higher when they first came out, I still have 4 or 5 or each stock piled that I haven't used from that time period.

    Yeah. Again, telling people to buy stuff isn’t a decent solution. I thought I was pretty clear on that too.

    Even if the shard drops are BTC, you can still craft the Cannith shards on your crafting toon, and pass them via the shared bank without having to buy a special trinket that the crafter can fashion and pass back to the toon.

    Binding bound shards to an item - any item - requires no crafting levels whatsoever, if I recall correctly.
    You can earn tp for free and I don't remember a trinket being horrible expensive, maybe 150 points, 600 favor?

    What part of “not everyone is in a guild” don’t you get?

    Oh wait, I know what your solution is: make your own guild so you can have your House J ship buff…
    they can join or player a single player game, guilds are part of the social mmo experience, avoiding one to avoid one means you should probably be playing a single player game.
    And for those people in a guild, I guess your next piece of advice is just to go around and change one of the limited number of shines on a low-level boat to have the House J healer in it. Yeah, THAT will go over well with the guildies…who want the other shrines…
    yes because the single most useful to the most people crew hookpoint shouldn't be used.

    Not everyone is in a guild, wants to start a guild, and so on.

    As a matter of fact – not sure how things are on your server – but there seems to be a trend of people who just don’t want to be in a guild.

    Again, not valid advice.
    once again play single player games then

  15. #235
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    I PUG allot - and am happy to teach - but all my LFM's say 'please/kindly be self sufficient'

    What this means:

    have potions of curse, disease, poison, fear removal and lesser restoration.

    have healing potions/elixirs... enough for the quest - so is 3 going to be enough is not being self sufficient.

    have appropriate level gear - so deathblock, 100% fortification, greater false life items etc.

    If you have con as a dump stat - please don't draw aggro....

    and we might pop plastic - but don't depend upon it.

    If (and we usually do) have a character that can heal - don't depend upon them for your band-aids and basic suturing.

    Work together - but don't drag on the blue bars to keep you alive, especially if you think con is a dump stat (And I am meaning a lv16 sorc with 158 hp - ya you)

    I don't mind (and am happy to pop a raise dead clickie or scroll - but if you charge ahead and draw aggro - better hope you have silver flame pots.

    Sorry - didn't mean to gripe.

    In the end BE NICE TO BLUE BARS 'cause the divine type are a dying breed.
    Last edited by UurlockYgmeov; 07-19-2013 at 05:14 PM. Reason: my kobold powered spell checker is on Union Break

  16. #236
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    drop rates were higher when they first came out, I still have 4 or 5 or each stock piled that I haven't used from that time period.
    Fair enough.

    I still have a hard time getting them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You can earn tp for free and I don't remember a trinket being horrible expensive, maybe 150 points, 600 favor?
    Still, it’s “you want to be good? Buy this…”

    It really isn’t relevant to the discussion, and should be considered “optimal” as a solution.

    When you figure out plans, there are three targets you look for: optimal, pessimistic, and average. You hope for optimal, plan for pessimistic, and average is where things usually fall. EllisDee promotes optimal, I counter with pessimistic. I realize that average is where most people will fall, but to assume that everyone will be able to achieve optimistic is laughable. Most people will hit the average goal.

    When this whole argument started, I got people telling me they could heal for a bazillion HP on their hundred-life TR casting a Cure Light Wounds spell. I whittled that down to CSW, and about 130-ish points. I actually think the average for most players is a little below that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    they can join or player a single player game, guilds are part of the social mmo experience, avoiding one to avoid one means you should probably be playing a single player game.
    That’s not valid advice, at all.

    Since starting this game, I’ve gone through about five or six different guilds, leaving two of them. In all practicality, I only really left one of them. The rest were either wholly inactive, or disbanded.

    When I recruit for my current guild, I could barely believe some of the stories I was being told about some of the guild requirements being told to the players.

    Being in a guild / not being in a guild is SO not cut-and-dried. It is very simplistic to say “this is a social game, get into a guild.” There is being social, and then there are guilds that make being in one a second full-time job. Some get turned-off, pug, or solo.

  17. #237
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Remember that T.V shot Pimp My Ride? Maybe ddo needs a show called Bridge My Gap? Snoop Dog or 50 cent should be the host................ lol.

  18. #238
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    You want to learn X quest or activity? Do what I do. *Solo the quest with a hireling on normal.* I have done every. single. quest. in the game this way (not raids of course). I may not know ALL the tricks to a given quest, but I know how to finish the silly thing.

    Learning the game? Find every. single. explore. in the explore areas. Look up a map if you have to, but this way you'll learn how to get around.

    And always, always ALWAYS tell people when you don't recall a quest that well. I have NO problem with showing people around a quest if they tell me they don't know it. I get SEVERELY annoyed with them if they tell me "yah I know it" and then ten seconds in they're all shocked because they have mummy rot or got fingered by a caster. "I know it" doesn't mean "I ran it once three years ago and I vaguely remember which pack it is in". That's like claiming you "know" computer repairs because you once reinstalled Windows.

    Heck, here's an "I know it" checklist:

    1. I know where the entrance to the quest is and can find it without assistance or directions.
    2. I know whether or not it is a chain/flagged quest and how to tell whether I'm on the chain or flagged.
    3. I know what type of monsters are in the quest and whether they require any special offensive or defensive stuff.
    4. I know how to do all of the puzzles or special tasks involved in completing the quest. I may have to pull up a solver or fiddle with it for a while, but that is okay as long as I'm not standing there gobsmacked going OMG PUZZLE!
    5. I know whether there are traps in the quest and if I am a trapper I know FOR A FACT that I can find and disarm said traps.
    6. If I am a caster, I know of any special-purpose spells that are particularly effective in the quest (stone to flesh, halt undead, etc.) Actually getting these spells is optional but always nice.
    7. I have a good idea of the primary damage types I'm going to face in this quest.
    8. I know the difference between force traps (purple) and sonic traps (gray).

    If you can't check off all those boxes, you don't "know it". You're more likely in the "I've done it but I don't have it all down pat yet" category. Nothing wrong with this category, but when you join a group those should be the first words out of your mouth.
    I edited a book!

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  19. #239
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    That’s not valid advice, at all.

    Since starting this game, I’ve gone through about five or six different guilds, leaving two of them. In all practicality, I only really left one of them. The rest were either wholly inactive, or disbanded.

    When I recruit for my current guild, I could barely believe some of the stories I was being told about some of the guild requirements being told to the players.

    Being in a guild / not being in a guild is SO not cut-and-dried. It is very simplistic to say “this is a social game, get into a guild.” There is being social, and then there are guilds that make being in one a second full-time job. Some get turned-off, pug, or solo.
    There are multiple types of guilds, some are hardcore where yeah you got to be on all the time, some are large, some are small, some are casual, and some unfortunately are half dead. That doesn't change from mmo to mmo, some of the specifics yes, but not the core concept of it. Guilds are a central part of playing an mmo, if you don't want to be in one, you'd get more from a single player console game.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    And always, always ALWAYS tell people when you don't recall a quest that well. I have NO problem with showing people around a quest if they tell me they don't know it. I get SEVERELY annoyed with them if they tell me "yah I know it" and then ten seconds in they're all shocked because they have mummy rot or got fingered by a caster. "I know it" doesn't mean "I ran it once three years ago and I vaguely remember which pack it is in". That's like claiming you "know" computer repairs because you once reinstalled Windows.

    Heck, here's an "I know it" checklist:

    1. I know where the entrance to the quest is and can find it without assistance or directions.
    2. I know whether or not it is a chain/flagged quest and how to tell whether I'm on the chain or flagged.
    3. I know what type of monsters are in the quest and whether they require any special offensive or defensive stuff.
    4. I know how to do all of the puzzles or special tasks involved in completing the quest. I may have to pull up a solver or fiddle with it for a while, but that is okay as long as I'm not standing there gobsmacked going OMG PUZZLE!
    5. I know whether there are traps in the quest and if I am a trapper I know FOR A FACT that I can find and disarm said traps.
    6. If I am a caster, I know of any special-purpose spells that are particularly effective in the quest (stone to flesh, halt undead, etc.) Actually getting these spells is optional but always nice.
    7. I have a good idea of the primary damage types I'm going to face in this quest.
    8. I know the difference between force traps (purple) and sonic traps (gray).

    If you can't check off all those boxes, you don't "know it". You're more likely in the "I've done it but I don't have it all down pat yet" category. Nothing wrong with this category, but when you join a group those should be the first words out of your mouth.
    Excellent post! Exactly right.

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