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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I've been thinking about this. Please name one situation where being able to heal yourself without a hireling or player divine is detrimental. Being able to self heal when things go badly results in a stronger character every single time as you will still have a toon that does 80-95% of a full dps barb, and possibly even higher if you have multi-shot and ed's. I can't think of a single time where being able to heal myself was a negative contribution.
    I get the impression he considers self-healing to mean slowly sneak up on a single target, draw him away from the other mobs, and then once isolated carefully attack and kill that mob, then stop to heal up before continuing on to the next mob. That's not a self-healing playstyle; that's the playstyle when you're NOT self-healing and so have to rely on CSW pots.

    For my paladin, let's say level 18 running Ritual Sacrifice elite for bravery. My tactic is to run up to a mob or group of mobs and start swinging, casting CSW for 180 a pop as needed. (Mine are actually 215 thanks to 20% from gear via levik's bracers early and DT armor late, but the point about being ungeared is reasonable.) With no gear, that's 180 HP for 22 SP whenever you like, without breaking out of combat, and without any particularly special tactics required.

    66 devotion (crafted trinket, can be made unbound for you)
    80 paladin devotion IV
    75 empower healing spell
    ----
    221 spell power = *3.21

    1.1 human improved recovery I
    1.1 human improved recovery II
    1.1 human improved recovery III
    1.1 hunter of the dead I
    1.1 hunter of the dead II
    1.1 ship buff
    ----
    1.771561 amp

    31.5 Cure Serious base
    *3.21 spell power
    *1.77 amp
    ------
    179 hit points for 22 spell points

    Without any gear outside of a single crafted trinket that a) can be made for you, and b) I recommend everyone buy a single store-bought trinket because they are BTA, letting you pass that one trinket around to every new alt you roll up.

    EDIT: The trinket approach is low; better would be Alchemist's Crown (but that's level 18 to farm) or better still, any weapon with a red slot with Devotion +72 slotted (AML16) which can be bought for cheapo gianthold relics you get at level 15, and that also gives implement bonus (likely +15) for 87 devotion from items. Cheap and easy for new players.

  2. #202
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I've been thinking about this. Please name one situation where being able to heal yourself without a hireling or player divine is detrimental. Being able to self heal when things go badly results in a stronger character every single time as you will still have a toon that does 80-95% of a full dps barb, and possibly even higher if you have multi-shot and ed's. I can't think of a single time where being able to heal myself was a negative contribution.
    This is like saying, “name for me one situation where using FoD to kill every mob isn’t detrimental.” Hey, being able to heal myself without someone attached to my hip is a great thing. It is practical in all circumstances?

    No.

    (Actually, the one quest in the new stuff where you beat down someone until they give in would be one example of the FoD thing, but they don’t allow you to FoD them anyways, so it is a moot point).

    Furthermore, again, you walk into am advertised BYOH group and pop a hireling, some people don’t like that…in a pretty major way.

    I’m not disputing being able to heal yourself is a bad thing. My point is that it is not always practical as everyone makes it out to be, and for all classes.

  3. #203
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This is like saying, “name for me one situation where using FoD to kill every mob isn’t detrimental.” Hey, being able to heal myself without someone attached to my hip is a great thing. It is practical in all circumstances?

    No.

    (Actually, the one quest in the new stuff where you beat down someone until they give in would be one example of the FoD thing, but they don’t allow you to FoD them anyways, so it is a moot point).

    Furthermore, again, you walk into am advertised BYOH group and pop a hireling, some people don’t like that…in a pretty major way.

    I’m not disputing being able to heal yourself is a bad thing. My point is that it is not always practical as everyone makes it out to be, and for all classes.
    Yes it's much harder on barbs and fighters than on other classes, that's why my first suggestion was to change the difficulty description on character creation for those classes to difficult. That said it can be done and with how fewer and fewer divines play, getting that information out to players on how to do it is a good thing. Many players hate hirelings, they take up a party slot, increase scaling, stand in traps, bug out and refuse to take any action, rush ahead to aggro other mobs ext ext no matter what you click with them or how you try to manage them. I had this opinion even as a new player and at most kept one at the start of the dungeon to port to me in an emergency when soloing.

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    being able to heal myself without someone attached to my hip is a great thing. It is practical in all circumstances?

    No.
    I'm having trouble thinking of examples where it would be impractical. Outside of raid boss fights -- where this entire discussion is moot -- I can't think of any.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    What are you offering to a group?
    Erm, fantastic offense in heroics, that puts everything except savants and good wizzies to shame ?
    When I click that byoh by divine i expect :
    They can do water and wis optional in Tear, east side in Delera4, optionals in Delera 2 , handle a side in Bloody crypt, kick ass blade barriers in von3, shadow crypt.
    They are the fastest in wiz king to do their tower. They get majority of kills in Oob and Desert caravan, can farm Maraud the mines with them.
    They run to end in Purge the shrine and don't stop while i lit the torches.
    Run till orange / red and pop BB in Dreams of insanity
    They make Vol and Gop 5 minute runs.
    They DP bosses. Great implo in Vale. And million more things.
    I expect fom in quests where it's needed and DW if we gonna split up.
    I don't expect any heals in 1 - 12, try to not get into situation when I might need hjeals and certainly don't expect divine to follow me like a lemming/hireling instead of kicking major ass on the other side of the dungeon.
    Last edited by Veles; 07-02-2013 at 09:42 PM.

  6. #206
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Are you new ? 90% newbies are elven rangers.
    That's why you don't pug harbour/play a drinking game, take a shot if unknown pure ranger that click your lfm is awful.
    funny enough it was a elven ranger I guess I was just such a damn noob and still am but it was one of those crappy old 18 ranger 2 monk ones.

    I still remember using my puny plat on a first toon to buy cure wands with my ranger and using them to help top up my barbarian friend when we where in a full group so couldn't get a hire and the divine was ignoring us. I guess we could of just screamed about selfish divines and quit the game but........ it was funny healing that cleric after he had blown his load with crappy cure wands from my ranger. Im getting al nostalgic I remember getting the silver bow at level six and just loving it with manyshot it almost tempted me to roll an AA right there. And the manyshot bug................. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The solution is all n00bs should play rangers.

    You win the thread.
    Seriously how does one *win* a thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Yes it's much harder on barbs and fighters than on other classes, that's why my first suggestion was to change the difficulty description on character creation for those classes to difficult. That said it can be done and with how fewer and fewer divines play, .
    Well maybe they should make some changes to make divine classes more attractive to players and also make the healing more attractive somehow? Maybe have a system where the amount healed buffs the healer in someway to increase their dr/saves/ or even offensive output in some way?
    And why not have some more powerful healing potions? Not too powerful but as some people have mentioned something better than csw pots for the early/mid teen levels. I guess we dont want to make them too powerful as it will make things too trivial.
    I guess making divines more attractive to play and introducing a way to make people less totally dependent on them might be a good thing for the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm having trouble thinking of examples where it would be impractical. Outside of raid boss fights -- where this entire discussion is moot -- I can't think of any.
    I have actually found it to be useful *in* raid boss fights especially when I was *tanking* the raid boss, some raid bosses iv'e even pretty much soloed while the others took care of other stuff, its really useful in those raids where **** can get real chaotic, its nice to be able to tell your healer not to worry to go and help out healing the other guys your fine you got this for now. I want to get SF pots for my toon even though he might hardly ever use them just having more options for self healing is good in my book but there are always going to be some people who will be hostile to people playing the game in a way that *different* to how they expect it to be played.

    But ive always liked getting as much self healing as possible, heck even if you RP, every crafty rogue, and warrior is going to be getting and hoarding healing potions and such I mean unless the divine is your best friend can you trust em with your life? those priests/druids/FS got their own agenda's and they are not always going to be there 100% of the time to pull your ass out of the fire. Its like learning basic first aid, it wont hurt you and could even be extremely useful down the track.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-03-2013 at 05:26 AM.

  7. #207
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post

    Well maybe they should make some changes to make divine classes more attractive to players and also make the healing more attractive somehow? Maybe have a system where the amount healed buffs the healer in someway to increase their dr/saves/ or even offensive output in some way?
    And why not have some more powerful healing potions? Not too powerful but as some people have mentioned something better than csw pots for the early/mid teen levels. I guess we dont want to make them too powerful as it will make things too trivial.
    I guess making divines more attractive to play and introducing a way to make people less totally dependent on them might be a good thing for the game?
    My thought is that unless a dev finds it to be their pet peeve like one of them found secret doors to be, major changes are unlikely. I think the best we could get if enough of us ask for it on the forums will be a description change (hopefully 10 min job) and a change to let lesser silver flame potions be purchased one tier of favor lower than they currently are. (considering the mechanic for multiple tiered seletion from a favor vendor exists for free agent and house d, this means they should be able to copy most of that code and past it into the sf vendor to do this, resulting in an under 60 min change) I think this would be meaningful change that could be accomplished at a very low cost to turbine, and is probably the best shot to have happen.

  8. #208
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    My thought is that unless a dev finds it to be their pet peeve like one of them found secret doors to be, major changes are unlikely. I think the best we could get if enough of us ask for it on the forums will be a description change (hopefully 10 min job) and a change to let lesser silver flame potions be purchased one tier of favor lower than they currently are. (considering the mechanic for multiple tiered seletion from a favor vendor exists for free agent and house d, this means they should be able to copy most of that code and past it into the sf vendor to do this, resulting in an under 60 min change) I think this would be meaningful change that could be accomplished at a very low cost to turbine, and is probably the best shot to have happen.
    Yes it would be a low cost and possibly a big boost keep people playing longer and hopefully then part with more $ I guess that's what it comes down to........... happy customers are more likely to spend money? I don't know maybe happy customers are *less* likely to open the wallet and part with their cash it might be better to get them angry and frustrated with something then *ching* *ching* sell them the solution to their frustration.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Well maybe they should make some changes to make divine classes more attractive to players and also make the healing more attractive somehow? Maybe have a system where the amount healed buffs the healer in someway to increase their dr/saves/ or even offensive output in some way?
    And why not have some more powerful healing potions? Not too powerful but as some people have mentioned something better than csw pots for the early/mid teen levels. I guess we dont want to make them too powerful as it will make things too trivial.
    I guess making divines more attractive to play and introducing a way to make people less totally dependent on them might be a good thing for the game?
    Or just make the classes with no real innate self healing easier to heal. Add some form of progressive healing amp so that their limited self healing options go further and divines don't feel the are such mana sponges. By progressive I mean something along the lines of how the game deals with bonus SP's for sorcs/FVS's or maybe something like each level in class/10 additive healing amp. So 1 level would be a whopping 0.1%, a second would add 0.2% for a total of 0.3% a third would bring them to 0.6% etcetera. This to keep it from being a big splash perk.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Yes it would be a low cost and possibly a big boost keep people playing longer and hopefully then part with more $ I guess that's what it comes down to........... happy customers are more likely to spend money? I don't know maybe happy customers are *less* likely to open the wallet and part with their cash it might be better to get them angry and frustrated with something then *ching* *ching* sell them the solution to their frustration.
    But then frustrated customers, especially the newer one's who don't know all the workarounds and workthroughs are also more likely to just uninstall then happy customers I would think.

  11. #211
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I get the impression he considers self-healing to mean slowly sneak up on a single target, draw him away from the other mobs, and then once isolated carefully attack and kill that mob, then stop to heal up before continuing on to the next mob. That's not a self-healing playstyle; that's the playstyle when you're NOT self-healing and so have to rely on CSW pots.
    I don’t know why I have to explain this, but it is really a no-brainer. The best self-healing playstyle is the one where you, ideally, never take any damage. I don’t drain SP with Auras, or Reconstructs, don’t need to quaff pots, wand / scroll heal if I’m killing the mobs before they even know I’m there.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    For my paladin, let's say level 18 running Ritual Sacrifice elite for bravery. My tactic is to run up to a mob or group of mobs and start swinging, casting CSW for 180 a pop as needed. (Mine are actually 215 thanks to 20% from gear via levik's bracers early and DT armor late, but the point about being ungeared is reasonable.) With no gear, that's 180 HP for 22 SP whenever you like, without breaking out of combat, and without any particularly special tactics required.
    A better test? How about running elite Coal Chamber with those caster trogs who a) slow you with the stink attack, b) cast displacement the minute they see you, and c) never run out of spell points. Furthermore, their attacks regularly break high-concentration scores, so that 180 HP a pop you think you’re getting may be rather hit-and-miss.

    You only solution at that point is poison pots (they don’t last long enough to have much of an effect), high saves (which are overcome), a true seeing item (rare piece of equipment), maybe Dispel Magic (doesn’t work all that well in my opinion), Vorpal strikes (low instance of occurring), trips / stuns (again, low instance of occurring) and so on. The only thing that might help is maybe a proof against poison item, and casting zeal for the potential of a double-strike.

    In short, they can outlast you. And because you’re in on elite, you’re going to reserve your SP for when you really need them because you only get 1 hit on that shrine, so you’re going to have to resort to pots and maybe wands. You don’t DARE cast neutralize poison in this quest, as you’ll most likely lose all of your SP to resolving the trog stench problem, and have nothing for healing.

    You’ll get creamed.

    In this instance, tactics because just about everything. It is much easier to pull melee mobs one at a time around a corner with maybe a throwing knife, use a paralyzer (a not-so-rare piece of equipment these days) take them out in small groups, and then concentrate and expend all of your remaining SP and LoH taking out the boss (or just killing off the casters one at a time if possible).

    Running up to mobs and taking them out, in many situations, will get you flattened. This is especially true if you have self-healing casters who throw displacement or blur on themselves. Yeah, it is a lot easier if you are on a second life where you have a decent accumulation of gear to pave the way for success. It is not so easy if you don’t have what you need gear-wise.

    You can, of course, get something with a displacement clicky, but that gets us back to the first-lifer situation where you don’t have the gear to mitigate damage. The best you’ll be able to get is a greensteel item, but that is only after you’ve flagged and run Shroud some 15 – 20 times.

    Gear is just as essential as builds in a BYOH situation, as are tactics. Because if you don’t need to heal, you just as good off as having all the healing you need to get you through the quest.

    As for your numbers, I mostly agree with what you put down. However, I’d dispute having a trinket. There are a lot of conditionals applied to that piece of gear, namely having to buy one or getting very lucky with a rare drop, having the plat (or something to trade) to get the shards, and so on. Your best bet is maybe a shard from Shroud, or a Devotion item on a shield (without looking it up, I believe you can put devotion on a shield). That, however, is going to be rather clumsy to utilize.

    Furthermore, assuming that any toon will have access to the appropriate ship buff is also a stretch. In fact, from my experience, I am seeing a declining trend of people allowing non-guildies to use their ship buffs as of late. So the way I see it, taking a more pessimistic view, you looking at heals maybe in the 130 – 150-ish range, and not 179.

    This is a [b]far cry[b] from the numbers being bandied about on this forum for all of those uber-builds everyone claims they have (400 hp for CSW, 250 hp, etc.) A lot of them have the gear, have past lives, and so on. Not everyone has that, and this holds ESPECIALLY true of newer players and toons.

    Again, I think a lot of people who talk about this BYOH thing, and how everyone can do it is akin to living in a bubble. Yeah, you can do it as everyone claims if you’ve got X past lives, specific gear, and make tradeoffs on your build for all of this marvelous healing, and sacrificing other things. It is not as cut-and-dried as everyone makes it out to be, and does not take into account that the average player cannot do half of the things needed due to limitations imposed by the game, and often times by more experienced players.

    So, if you want to bridge the BYOH gap, the most sensible solution is to provide items what anyone can use given the current state of the game, and not rely on hybridized builds.

    Or meybe, just maybe, divine players stepping up and utilizing what they do best in a PUG situation?

  12. #212
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    I'll also say that I have a low HP AA ranger (I screwed up not taking the toughness feat early on). Even with low HP, he is one of the easiest classes to run in elite content.

    So whoever won the thread with that ranger comment was dead-right.

  13. #213
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    Or meybe, just maybe, divine players stepping up and utilizing what they do best in a PUG situation?
    Go in there, kill everything for the group, and let the group pike?

    have you ever run with a good group of people? Serious question.

  14. #214
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Go in there, kill everything for the group, and let the group pike?

    have you ever run with a good group of people? Serious question.
    Yeah, actually I have.

    And you're opinion of piking seems to be on the low side. Proper piking can be an art form...

  15. #215
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, actually I have.

    And you're opinion of piking seems to be on the low side. Proper piking can be an art form...
    I'm the greatest piker who ever piked.

    I just don't think Coal Chamber is particularly difficult. had you said RWTD you'd have had a more valid point.

  16. #216
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    Or meybe, just maybe, divine players stepping up and utilizing what they do best in a PUG situation?
    Every coal chamber I've ever been in as a group, a divine will
    a) Never cast remove poision on you. Pots exist they may not even be able to carry the spell if they're a fvs and they will not swap it out for you.

    b) Someone always falls and the group spreads out when climbing meaning that you're going to be on your own for heals even if you have a healbot doing nothing else in the party.

    c) If you're not trying to solo, chances are an arcane or divine has instant killed the casters, this means that the melee just have to kill archers at most. If you're trying to solo especially on a melee yeah things are harder surprise.

  17. #217
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm the greatest piker who ever piked.

    I just don't think Coal Chamber is particularly difficult. had you said RWTD you'd have had a more valid point.
    I can out-pike you with one hand tied behind my back.

    Running with the Devils has two shrines, if I remember correctly, and virtually everything in there can be banished (with the exception of the re-names, of course). But your point is noted.

  18. #218
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Every coal chamber I've ever been in as a group, a divine will
    a) Never cast remove poision on you. Pots exist they may not even be able to carry the spell if they're a fvs and they will not swap it out for you.

    b) Someone always falls and the group spreads out when climbing meaning that you're going to be on your own for heals even if you have a healbot doing nothing else in the party.

    c) If you're not trying to solo, chances are an arcane or divine has instant killed the casters, this means that the melee just have to kill archers at most. If you're trying to solo especially on a melee yeah things are harder surprise.
    I'm assuming solo with a melee.

    I did this on normal not too long ago, just for the completion. Though I've done CC on elite with my wizzies, and I;ve founf that the trog casters are among the most annoying in the game. I was regularly losing SP to bad casts because they'd nail me mid-animation doing either banish or FoD, and I'd fail the concentration check.

    If I recall correctly, my concentration roll with modifiers was in the seventies (trying to go from memory here), and I was failing a concentration check. I was like "***?!?"

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    simple. they shouldn't be in a group with other experienced, self sufficient players if they are not able to be self sufficient themselves. players that are able to be self sufficient probably had to learn to play to get to that point. im sure they all started off the same way feeling like they needed to play blue bar characters or have a dedicated healer in their group. eventually they learned how to run a quest without needing someone to always take care of them or had to play a FVS. it just takes some experience, game knowledge and not running quests on difficulties too hard to handle before gaining some of that experience.

    i don't mean it to sound rude or anything. i pug when i do group and i always help anyone out if they are lost or in trouble. i always play the team player in groups regardless if its full of first timers or full of vets.
    Simple indeed. That is like saying that babies should only hang out with babies until they are adults. Be an adult.

  20. #220
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I'm assuming solo with a melee.

    I did this on normal not too long ago, just for the completion. Though I've done CC on elite with my wizzies, and I;ve founf that the trog casters are among the most annoying in the game. I was regularly losing SP to bad casts because they'd nail me mid-animation doing either banish or FoD, and I'd fail the concentration check.

    If I recall correctly, my concentration roll with modifiers was in the seventies (trying to go from memory here), and I was failing a concentration check. I was like "***?!?"
    Yeah, some will argue with me on this but I'd say that's because the concentration skill is a newb trap. Quicken is the only solution at higher levels to be able to cast while getting hit with anything. It's another case of something that should be spelled out to new players, at higher levels incoming damage will be high enough to make concentration checks impossible. At epic level a single arrow from an archer will make all checks a failure.

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