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  1. #1
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Default Enable Multiclass For Casters

    At the moment casters rarely multiclass for the simple reason caster levels make up for spell damage. losing caster levels means a significant drop in damage done.

    just like taking caster levels doesn't mean you don't get any increase to BaB, but rather get a smaller increase to it, I believe that taking non-caster levels on a caster shouldn't give you no increase to your caster level, but rather a smaller increase. (I believe BaB increase is two thirds for caster levels, so something along those lines)

    It has been suggested before me, but I could not find the thread so forgive me for starting a new one.

  2. #2
    Community Member Rusty_Can's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    At the moment casters rarely multiclass for the simple reason caster levels make up for spell damage. losing caster levels means a significant drop in damage done.
    Actually, plenty of multiclassed casters out there: 2 monks for Evasion and 2 feats, 2 rogue for Evasion and trap skills, 2 paladin for saves, 2 fighter for feats and proficiencies and so on ...... list is kinda long.

    Moreover, several spells cap their damage way before character level cap: thus a shallow splash doesn't actually hurt that much your damage output and, furthermore, the small loss can be made up resorting to buffs and equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    just like taking caster levels doesn't mean you don't get any increase to BaB, but rather get a smaller increase to it [...] (I believe BaB increase is two thirds for caster levels, so something along those lines)
    Every class follows some BaB progression and BaB progressions stack; sorcerers and wizards are 1:2 classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    I believe that taking non-caster levels on a caster shouldn't give you no increase to your caster level, but rather a smaller increase.
    Since caster levels from different caster classes don't stack, why levels in non-caster classes should increase your caster level?

    /not signed

    What has been proposed several times is the implementation of the Practiced Spellcaster feat.
    On Thelanis: Hallelujah (Spellsinger) - Jerryrigged Juggernaut (caster FvS) - Sepulchral (Druid) - Chopchopchop (Warlock) - Alleyshadow (retired gimped monkcher). Formerly on Keeper : Misericordia (Thug) - Mumbo Jumbo (Battle Caster) - Infernal Can (WF Kinda Cleric) - Halleluyah (Melee Spellsinger).

  3. #3
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    id think the DC's and the spells given by level are the bigger factors than damage here. A 17 Cleric/Wiz/Sorc would seem the most to allow lvl 9 spells. A 12 Splash of Wiz/Cleric wouldn't achieve enough DC to hit monsters unless no save, but the no save spells come at the higher lvls like Polar Ray/Black Dragon Bolt. Even if damage were buffed, most spells would have a hard time hitting except for these, and would still require an investment in the stat needed.

    A Finger of Death & Circle of Death are available at lvl 11 but would have -3 DC if not heightened to lvl 9 spell level, which would need lvl 17.

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    sorry, finger of death a lvl7 spell so thats a lvl 13 wiz.. Polar Ray and Black Dragon come at lvl 15 so a 15 Wiz might work, and would only get a -1 to Total DC if using heighten. Damage wise, i think it can still be pretty decent though

  5. #5
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauf View Post
    At the moment casters rarely multiclass for the simple reason caster levels make up for spell damage. losing caster levels means a significant drop in damage done.

    just like taking caster levels doesn't mean you don't get any increase to BaB, but rather get a smaller increase to it, I believe that taking non-caster levels on a caster shouldn't give you no increase to your caster level, but rather a smaller increase. (I believe BaB increase is two thirds for caster levels, so something along those lines)

    It has been suggested before me, but I could not find the thread so forgive me for starting a new one.
    i would suggest the opposite thing:

    give better stuff for having high lvls of same class, casters worth getting 16 lvls in the class (use to be where most spells have the damage capped and u'll lose only the 3rd pre, if exists, also u would get lvl 8 spells, that 1 dc less than max) in the other hand non caster...

    have very few variations related to caster because there's no real point getting 18 nor 16 lvls in em, that's why u'll see mostly 12/13-7/6-1/2, sometimes even a 7-7-6 or 8-6-6

    also u know there's a really big chance that 6 lvls will be monk/fighter because the feats

    so, the suggestion would be, give something more than only bab/random stuff to non caster toons (monks and fighters are ok with that 4 feats at lvl 6 lol)

    also, losing 3-4 dc isnt a big loss if you take the right feats and max casting stat, as example: bard and arti cast lvl 6 spells and work nicely
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  6. #6
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    Its not the CL that's the problem, its mostly the fact that low- and mid-tier spells usually aren't good enough on their own to warrant the levels it takes to acquire them. That and, being low-tier (and not being able to Heighten them to L9), they're going to have several points less DC than spells cast by a pure.

    Especially when you get to endgame, and you're trying to squeeze every last point into your DCs to make your spells usable, all those lost points make it nigh-on impossible to effectively cast offensive spells as a light-splash caster.

    Which, arguably, is a good thing, since melee classes are so front-loaded and not as level-based as casters (its more just about feats and STR and what weapons you have). If you could take a 12/6/2 melee/caster hybrid, for instance, and have 80% of the melee power of a pure Fighter, plus 70% of the casting power of a pure Wizard, then you're 150% more powerful than a pure character, and then nobody would NOT multi-class.

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    You should probably learn how the system works before suggesting changes.
    Casters do get additional BAB at certain levels. Which makes sense, since everyone fights. Additional caster levels for non -caster classes doesn't make sense, since not everyone casts spells.
    Plenty of MC caster builds out there.



    /not signed, dumb idea

  8. #8
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    No, OP. You do not want to further rewrite a game system more than it already has been.

    However, if you want to put in your support for the feat of Practiced Spellcaster, I'd be supportive of that.

    http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-ar...lcaster--2231/

  9. #9
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Samius had posted a thread requesting dev feedback on the alleged "unbalancing" of the Practised Spellcaster feat before the forums were corrupted, but if memory serves no one was able to give him an example of how the feat would break the game by creating super-casters. At least, no example that was admitted to be over-powered by anyone other than the person who submitted it...

    Most people simply don't understand how the feat works, and the mountain of work that would be required to educate everyone is simply not worth the effort. If you were still able to read the thread, you'd quickly get tired of how often people's misconception of the feat had to be corrected, and even then they were still against it.

    @droid327: The prejudice against heavily multi classed casters is so deep that if a 12/6/2 abomination had 95% melee of a pure fighter and 95% casting power of a pure caster, they'd still be seen as gimped.

    Op, while I appreciate your passion for multiclassing casters, I think you'd be better off making the argument that spell penetration from different classes should stack. That would be more fitting, since one of the loading tips specifies that Spell Resistance is like armor class for spells... therefore, Spell Penetration should behave similarly to BaB.

    IMHO.
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    I think you'd be better off making the argument that spell penetration from different classes should stack. That would be more fitting, since one of the loading tips specifies that Spell Resistance is like armor class for spells... therefore, Spell Penetration should behave similarly to BaB.

    IMHO.
    I would even go further. A total caster level, not class specific caster levels.
    That would allow multiclassing different casters while still putting a cost to melee splashes.
    I have to agree with psykopeta that you should be punished more for being that 18/2 than you already are. You have all these additional skill, that's taken a lot away from your focus.

  11. #11
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    I've done 2 lives of FVS with a single rogue level added on to get traps, and have good enough gear to get every trap in the game that can be done without evasion, except the one in hobgoblin lair.

    My solo ability was only compromised by getting Blade Barrier one level later, but once I got it Im still able to zerg through most of the game, and get 15% extra exp, and when playing in groups I can fill the healer, trapper and caster slots all in one (I play a FVS just like I did with my 3 wizard lives, that is everything dies fast, or gets CCed with greater command before it can do damage).

    My DCs are still just as strong, and with all those wizard and FVS past lives plus spell penetration 3 enhancements, nothing resists my spells in heroic elite content, and I can still get traps, heal, and land loads of implosion kills in epic hard content.

    I've had loads of people tell me that I ruined my class by adding a rogue level and wouldn't ever be able to get end game traps on a FVS. I just laughed at them while solo zerging in loads of epic hard stuff and getting all the traps. I wouldn't bother trying to disable traps in epic elite though, but can still heal well and cast implosion on recharge.

  12. #12
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    Default Monte Cooks Arcana Evolved

    Monte Cook probably right up there with Skip Williams as the gawd fathers of this gen of D&D wrote his own spin on D20 after parting ways with WOTC. Arcana Evolved was the final product a Tome of a game book, that was PHB,GM, and MM all in one. IT also had more then enough info for the setting "The Diamond Throne" for any competent GM to weave adventures set within it.

    However it was the way it tackled a number of issues, like the blatant OPness of casters by end lvls compared to the warrior classes, as well as the easier time warriors had of multiclassing.

    For warriors it was a mixture of better developed classes meant to fit more heroic archtypes then just the merc soldier, and barbarian, those are actually more geared towards the every day common man meant to live and die thinking a gold piece is alot of money. Classes like Totem Warrior, Ritual Warrior, and even hybrid classes like Mage-Blade and the Witch all helped give those looking to play something more like gandalf rather then Dalamar.

    Meanwhile classes like The Greenbond and Magister( druid and wizard more or less) while still having the reason of high lvl spell slots to stay pure, could freely multi class, stacking total caster lvl, and aquiring tons of low lvl slots, this was how those looking to play more dmg spell heavy blaster caster types would be directed to build possessing tons of low lvl slots but no high lvl ones.

    Now I am barely brushing the surface of how the book changed D20 basics many D&D fanbois treat as gospel, but in my years of PnP I can safely say many more people have seemed to enjoy creating and playing characters in and for that system then a tradtitional FResque group. I for one certainly did as well as had alot more fun running it for others.

    People are often saying here they love DDO for its superior character creation customization compared to other MMOs( Champions Online probablt being the best but requring subbing or a hefty cash chunk up front to use the free form character creation there) Yet the sad fact is we have very little really at least when compared to D20 PnP systems that clearly evolved more thoughtfully then DDO did.

    For example would it be so bad if a paladin/cleric hybrids pallie lvls would add to the total caster lvl for the character and stacking the spell slots? Or might it create more people healing capable to spread out the burden of red bar baby sitting to all by allowing people to splash abit more comfortably.

    Hell I recall some versions of D20 more oddball random published stuff typically that had all classes cap at 10 while using a 40 total lvl standard. the idea being to help new players immediatly grasp that multi classing was the standard way to use the rules, not an optional.

    Even in vanilla D&D 3E if your playing in greyhawk, and the PRC from the DMG are in play, then no one really should of ever been thinking pure class builds in D20 was viable, because they really are not meant to be compared to real world characters made and played by experienced dice chuckers

  13. #13
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    In terms of MMOs, its true that DDO offers much more character customisation than most of the others. In terms of D&D, and single player D&D games however, it isn't that good. Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights games had deep and complex dual / multiclassing options, both of which I really enjoyed. In BG you could make a human thief or fighter, and then dual class them to a mage after getting 9 or 10 thief / fighter levels without making any dent in your spell casting power, while enjoying having full thief skills, or vastly increased HP and attack bonus (thac0) from the fighter levels. You could also make cleric / mage multiclasses with enough XP and levels in the game to reach the top casting level in both classes.

    In NVN, you had the option of the Eldritch Knight prestige class to make a melee capable arcane caster, albeit having much lower HP. In PnP there is also the music theurge prestige to enable making a divine and arcane multiclass (sorcerer and FVS is also possible with it).

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