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  1. #1
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    Default EE Monk based Tank; is it possible?

    Hello my fellow forumites. I have had a light monk for a long time now and have been trying to build her into a effective and efficient tank. I have had great success on EH runs and was even capable of tanking during her first life (back when epic was EPIC), but am uncertain whether or not its even possible to build a EE monk tank using the current game mechanics. AC/PRR are very restricting and difficult to come by for monks (I'm sitting around 150 ac and 100 PRR, depending on gear at the moment). I'm hoping this may change with the enhancement changes coming up, but am still uncertain whether or not its plausible. Any thoughts/advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
    Lylyss, Sairenn, Crixian, Lynys
    Leader of Doom Legion, Khyber

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by evaldor View Post
    Hello my fellow forumites. I have had a light monk for a long time now and have been trying to build her into a effective and efficient tank. I have had great success on EH runs and was even capable of tanking during her first life (back when epic was EPIC), but am uncertain whether or not its even possible to build a EE monk tank using the current game mechanics. AC/PRR are very restricting and difficult to come by for monks (I'm sitting around 150 ac and 100 PRR, depending on gear at the moment). I'm hoping this may change with the enhancement changes coming up, but am still uncertain whether or not its plausible. Any thoughts/advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
    The answer: Yes. As you may know, nothing in EE, not even a true sword-and-board Fighter or Paladin will stand toe-to-toe with many EE enemies for long. Those guys are designed to kill anything, forcing parties (or solo players) to think very differently.

    My best toon is a Grandmaster of Mountains light Monk. Unbuffed, she has 91 AC with Combat Expertise and in Earth Stance. Hit points stand at 700 or so. As well, using Twists of Fate from Legendary Dreadnought and Unyielding Sentinel, she has anywhere from 41 to 53 Reflex saves, which aid her Improved Evasion, 18% Dodge, 20% blur and 10% incorporeality when fighting (see DDD Wiki's article on "Miss Chance" that details how these attacks are rolled separately to reduce the chance of any attack landing due to any of these effects). She has 62 PRR with the LD Twist active and at least 150% fortification (the biggest requirement since EE fort should equal or exceed 100+CR enemy level to avoid a serious deadly crit) with a max of 165%. Stunning is improved with Grandmaster of Flowers and LD Twist benefits. Unyielding Sentinel has Brace for Impact, a low hanging extra fort and reflex ability that all should take and Twist.

    As it stands, Lynncletica can hop, skip and jump and kill anything in the game except EE with impunity. In EE, she holds her own, light tanking in party, and carefully leading in smaller parties. But my Monk's main defense (as is all Monks) is using damage avoidance tricks first, then falling down to AC and PRR to absorb what can't be avoided. Monks have great saves to help here if the stats are good.

    By EE you need high STR for damage dealing, good DEX for reflex saves, strong CON for more HP, especially on a Monk that gets fewer per level, and the highest WIS you can for Stunning Fist DCs (50+ recommended) and good Will saves against nastier mages. You should be using the Grave Wrappings in most fights since they enervate to help stunning, have a Stunning bonus and drop fortification for faster killing.

    Your build sounds like a winner, but does your higher AC and PRR come at a price to your Reflex saves? How's your Dodge, Evasion, concealment and incorporeality (a Ring of Shadows will help there)? How's your Stunning DC?

    The enhancement alpha showed that the Shintao Monk tree will get MUCH stronger PRR bonuses. I'm not an overall fan at where most of the Monk trees are going, but the Shintao looks like it will get a boost.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  3. #3
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    With the ENH pass it's looking like the best possible option.

  4. #4
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    In my opinion any character that can meet the goals of a Tank can tank

    The Goals:
    1. Contain the highest damage dealing entity (Be it a boss or large group of mobs)
    2. Cost the party fewer resources than what would be needed if the entity was not contained
    3. Live through it

    Ideally a Tank has moderate to good self healing options for times when it hits the fan.

    Now each type of tank brings differences on how this is done, but if the basic core are met it really does not matter beyond that.

  5. #5
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    No.
    Stalwart/DoS has 1.1k hp in stand against the tide, 170+ AC, 150 prr in sentinel with shield easily.
    That's on twf fighter with 1 toughness feat.
    "Full retard" tanks that devote feats and stat level ups into tanking gets even higher.

    Old Emerald esque toons were okay, pure monks, no. It's survivable, but not tanks for anything challenging.
    Monk's strength lies in other things.

  6. #6
    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    No.
    Stalwart/DoS has 1.1k hp in stand against the tide, 170+ AC, 150 prr in sentinel with shield easily.
    That's on twf fighter with 1 toughness feat.
    "Full retard" tanks that devote feats and stat level ups into tanking gets even higher.

    Old Emerald esque toons were okay, pure monks, no. It's survivable, but not tanks for anything challenging.
    Monk's strength lies in other things.
    What is considered "anything challenging".
    You'll bend to my will - With or without your precious sanity.

    Neilus Soul of the Phoenix - Completionist - Orien

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Everyone who is more effective than me is OP, and should be nerfed.
    Everyone who has more stuff than me cheated to get it, and should be punished.
    Everyone who plays differently to me is a bad person, and should be mistreated.

  7. #7
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    I appreciate everyones input and would have to agree with most everything said. I have plenty of dodge/incorp ability, maxing out my dodge cap, heal amp, and saves. I'm not all the way to where i'd like to be, but heal scrolls for over 600hp (minimum, i've seen over 1k from truly dedicated healers) always help out.

    However, what Veles said is definitely true; stalwarts and paladins have a significant advantage when it comes to hp, AC, and PRR. The monks greatest weakness in comparison is ac/prr, primarily. Increased dodge ability and heal amp make up for alot, but not when you're taking 10-15% more damage per hit and still getting hit often. Lets face it, the scaling between EH where i can no fail tank LoB with ease and EE where I get slapped around by a normal Red named boss is a little bit ridiculous. Sadly, thats what I'm stuck with at the moment.

    I don't suppose any of you know how the new shintao ENH are going to stack, do you? (defensive strikes hate gen stack with mtn stance? PRR bonuses stacking from the two? CE stacking with defensive strikes, since they're both termed a 'defensive stance'?) I missed out on the testing on Lamma land, so any knowledge/tips would be great!
    Lylyss, Sairenn, Crixian, Lynys
    Leader of Doom Legion, Khyber

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by evaldor View Post
    I appreciate everyones input and would have to agree with most everything said. I have plenty of dodge/incorp ability, maxing out my dodge cap, heal amp, and saves. I'm not all the way to where i'd like to be, but heal scrolls for over 600hp (minimum, i've seen over 1k from truly dedicated healers) always help out.

    However, what Veles said is definitely true; stalwarts and paladins have a significant advantage when it comes to hp, AC, and PRR. The monks greatest weakness in comparison is ac/prr, primarily. Increased dodge ability and heal amp make up for alot, but not when you're taking 10-15% more damage per hit and still getting hit often. Lets face it, the scaling between EH where i can no fail tank LoB with ease and EE where I get slapped around by a normal Red named boss is a little bit ridiculous. Sadly, thats what I'm stuck with at the moment.

    I don't suppose any of you know how the new shintao ENH are going to stack, do you? (defensive strikes hate gen stack with mtn stance? PRR bonuses stacking from the two? CE stacking with defensive strikes, since they're both termed a 'defensive stance'?) I missed out on the testing on Lamma land, so any knowledge/tips would be great!
    In my opinion, AC isn't a factor in EE, but avoiding a hit, much less surviving one, is more important. I've seen Paladins with impressive everything go down because they're carrying only 125% fortification. A Monk with lower AC but very high evasive abilities (Dodge and the like) is likely to survive a few more swings than a heavily built guy that can take a hit but otherwise can't get out of the way. That's been my experience there...and bosses are an entirely different can of fish.

    The enhancement alpha for Shintao has much of the same as current but that Defensive Strikes ability adds PRR, yes. However, if they stick to their plan, the devs are moving all Monk stances as auto-granted feats. This is an overpowering move in my opinion, and I don't know if the stances will retain their current qualities, particularly if Mountain Stance still has stacking PRR to other new Shintao abilities. Much of the alpha trees for Monks are either pretty awesome (the Ninja Spy tree) or downright horrendous (no Void attack unless you go Henshin and take a lot of unnecessary things, no healing amp for any non-Shintao or non-Human Monk). I'd jump on DDO Wiki, where you'll find a detailed list of alpha setups where the descriptions might help answer your question.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  9. #9
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    Default 95 prr 21-24 dodge

    21-24 dodge
    With new enhancements

    95 prr (defensive strikes)(Grandmaster Mountain Earth) (Improved Combat Mastery from LD)(iron skin) (10 augment)

    But this is only good for THF not TWF if you took shintao

    Also how do people get so high as 150 ac and 100 prr with old enhancements (The one on live)

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstre View Post
    21-24 dodge
    With new enhancements

    95 prr (defensive strikes)(Grandmaster Mountain Earth) (Improved Combat Mastery from LD)(iron skin) (10 augment)

    But this is only good for THF not TWF if you took shintao

    Also how do people get so high as 150 ac and 100 prr with old enhancements (The one on live)
    I can only guess here, but it is probable that players with 150 AC and 100 PRR are multiclassed to get natural PRR bonuses (since only Mountain Stance, Standing with Stone from Grandmaster of Flowers, and an enhancement gem adds PRR for Monks) or have additional Epic Destiny options that I haven't discovered as yet.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  11. #11
    Community Member elg582's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaldor View Post
    I have had great success on EH runs and was even capable of tanking during her first life (back when epic was EPIC), but am uncertain whether or not its even possible to build a EE monk tank using the current game mechanics.
    Easy: Switch to dark; 25% incorporeal is the single best defensive ability in the game. Get a decent dodge and blur (or even displacement clickies), and your AC is less important (especially since diminishing returns hit hard after AC~100).

    My (current) main is a pure dark monk, helf w/ rogue dilly (helps get aggro back and better dps for when you aren't tanking; oh yea, you need two sets of gear ), earth and wind IV stances. Last month, I was buffing over 1100hp, 100ac (no combat expertise), and never had a problem keeping aggro. I LR'd for fewer hp (buffing to ~900 now) but more dps and a little more AC, and it's even better now.

    I also have a 23 monkcher that has tanked EH, but I'd want to hit 25 and twist in LD or US before trying EE.
    "You lie down with rats, and the rats run away."

  12. #12
    Community Member TasMagar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evaldor View Post
    Hello my fellow forumites. I have had a light monk for a long time now and have been trying to build her into a effective and efficient tank. I have had great success on EH runs and was even capable of tanking during her first life (back when epic was EPIC), but am uncertain whether or not its even possible to build a EE monk tank using the current game mechanics. AC/PRR are very restricting and difficult to come by for monks (I'm sitting around 150 ac and 100 PRR, depending on gear at the moment). I'm hoping this may change with the enhancement changes coming up, but am still uncertain whether or not its plausible. Any thoughts/advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
    You will see you can easier tank with enh pass coming up .

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    With the ENH pass it's looking like the best possible option.
    That's true. Tested my 20 lvl shintao and it stands alot more on EE than now .


    I could hit 122 ac , but that is just relevant on EE. About PRR i could hit 150 .

    Breakdown.
    15 twisted stand with stone.
    15 ultimate mountain stance
    15 planar focus set
    14 slotted
    10+10 from Unyielding sentinel stance
    20 while in combat expertise (twist from LD)
    and from enh pass +35 from defensive strikes. ( i think it is around 50 not sure)

    total 134 PRR .

    add blurry from shroud item , ghostly from boots in high road . drow piwafi for invisibility guard and there you go.
    Ghallanda - Legends of Ancient Greece

    Gazbar

  13. #13
    Community Member TasMagar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TasMagar View Post
    You will see you can easier tank with enh pass coming up .



    That's true. Tested my 20 lvl shintao and it stands alot more on EE than now .


    I could hit 122 ac , but that is just relevant on EE. About PRR i could hit 150 .

    Breakdown.
    15 twisted stand with stone.
    15 ultimate mountain stance
    15 planar focus set
    14 slotted
    10+10 from Unyielding sentinel stance
    20 while in combat expertise (twist from LD)
    and from enh pass +35 from defensive strikes. ( i think it is around 50 not sure)

    total 134 PRR .

    add blurry from shroud item , ghostly from boots in high road . drow piwafi for invisibility guard and there you go.
    I checked it and Defensive strikes add 50 PRR whne fully upgraded.
    Also forgot to mention damage reduction FotW twist for another 6 PRR.

    The correct total after enh pass is 155 PRR .

    Defensive strikes adds 5% dodge . This will pretty much get your dodge on the limit (25%)

    About keeping aggro now. Ultimate earth stance gives 70% threat . New defensive strikes adds another 75% insight bonus to threat.( not sure they stack though...) Unyielding sentinel stance gives +20% threat generation stcked up 4 times if you stand still thats 80% more . Also a new skill "ki shout" is the monk equivalent for intimidate , but it uses concentration skill instead of intimidate.

    If all of these are still not enough , I will keep using unbalancing strike ( wisdom DC) . It will make the boss turn around for 1 or 1,5 sec and it will save me from some hits .

    Fists of light : stock up human healing amp, gloves of purple dragon knights for 30% , convalecent bracers for another 20% . Will not keep you alive on EE but it will be helpfull on EH .
    Ghallanda - Legends of Ancient Greece

    Gazbar

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