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Thread: AI Awareness!

  1. #21
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information, I have a few comments though :

    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    [...]
    We now have the ability to give your character the awareness to know when you have aggro from something. This will allow us to do things like putting you into combat stance rather than standing around idly until you’re getting punched in the head.
    Please, please find another way than putting us in combat stance, some mobs have been aggroing from halfway down areas ( Earth Elementals are the obvious culprits, but they are not alone ).
    There's visual ways to tell us that we are aggroed by something while we keep doing what we are doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    With the updated AI awareness, we’d like it to be possible for a sufficiently skilled player to use sneak to lose monsters after they spot you! This is something that was never possible in combat before because monsters had too many ways to “cheat” and see/hear you if you attempted it.
    This one would be great, as when a stealthed character pulls a trigger, open a door or do an action the stealth is broken, if there's mob around they all aggro him instantaneously.

    On the other hand, there's quests where doors have been added long ago just because you could pike them at the entrance while sending the rogue for a 3 minute stealth fest.


    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    Stealth should have the following advantages over mere invisibility:
    1. With sufficiently high skill, monsters won’t hear you, allowing you to avoid detection completely as you sneak by (go go move silently!)
    2. Escaping combat using sneak - this largely hasn’t been possible before, but we’d like skilled players with appropriate skills to be able to escape completely by activating sneak and escaping the area where their opponents last saw them. When monsters search the area they lost you in making blind attacks, they should lose aggro over time and eventually give up if they receive no additional clues to your location. I’ve been spending a lot of time on this, as it was the most requested fix by stealth enthusiasts on the forums, and from my testing I think it'll be quite fun : )
    3. Assassinate! Still finalizing the application here but the goal is making sure our Assassins can … you know… assassinate things!
    1) Right now a rogue or a bard, or anybody that spent sufficiently in sneak can come up to a monster ( almost any monster ) with it unaware... in some case in front of it.
    2) That would be great, as right now for an assassin, you use your assassinate as the opening move of a fight, then you are stuck waiting for it to refresh ( if you can ) or you have to fight the normal way.
    3) well reduce the cooldown... I you trigger it as the opening move of a fight, usually the fight is finished when you can use it again.
    As for assassinating things it works as long as you are behind the monster... if you are flanking it or in front of it it does not work. ( at least that's how it works for my assassin )
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  2. #22
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Can we finish trapmaking while we are working on stealth?

    Currently trapmaking caps at level 11 traps, it would be super easy to add more recipies scalling to 28.


    Also No Dice, can you engage with us a bit more? We all love MajMal because he doesnt just post and then abandon, he hangs around a bit to address some players questions etc. dont be shy buddy!
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

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  3. #23

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    Fantastic!!!!! Thank you very much for all the extensive and clear feedback!!!!!!

  4. #24
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    Default Levers!!!

    Using a lever or any other object should not interrupt sneak or invisibility, it should warn the monster close to it that something odd is going on but breaking the sneak is terrible to a rogue, if you do this way maybe exploring while in sneak mode would be useful again for example the rogue go first in sneak mode then open a door pass the search check of the mobs then the group move to the door and after they pass the rogue is already closing the door so a fight is avoided, and the rogue praise ;P

  5. #25
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Great news but this bit is unnecessary...


    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    [*]Monsters should no longer slide around when they are searching for a hidden enemy. Instead, we’re going to be adding a visual cue that doesn’t look like an animation bug.
    [LIST][*]We’re going to try giving them a “searching” icon to indicate that they haven’t found a target yet.[*]Similarly, we want to give monsters a “red ear” icon whenever they hear a suspicious noise.
    Just make our footsteps glow and the monster creep towards the sound. No need for silly ear icons.
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  6. #26
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    I would make invis players make sound when they are jumping through the air if they aren't in stealth. Double the stealthy xp bonuses but have any monster that sees you or hears you count as a monster killed. This would prevent people that just run thru the whole quest then lose the aggro at the end from getting ultra fast easy completions with the bonus xp.

  7. #27
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    thanks for the communication. I like everything you said and hope it works out. it would be awesome if all of that could happen.

  8. #28
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    Big red ears and other icons may be useful while testing and refining your code, but I would hate to see them in live. It is enough that monster behaviour changes. D&D is most fun with a balance of character and player skills. Please don't dumb down the player side of the scale.
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  9. #29
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Big red ears and other icons may be useful while testing and refining your code, but I would hate to see them in live. It is enough that monster behaviour changes. D&D is most fun with a balance of character and player skills. Please don't dumb down the player side of the scale.
    I tend to agree with this, but I know when the "sight lines" were added in for finding a trap through search, plenty of people were up in arms about "immersion" and stuff like that. I was a little leary of it first, but it really really really made trapping easier for folks who haven't memorized every box.

  10. #30
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    Hmm. I don't recall trap boxes looking around when they sensed someone sneaking up on them, but okay.

    Then I vote for toggle option.

    Or maybe put them in Korthos with all the other cues that are useful the first time, but annoying ever after. lol
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  11. #31
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    Many moons ago, you could attack while stealthed at half(?) rate until you were discovered. Personally I found that to be an interesting mechanic before the latest set of 'get to cap and farm there only' pushes. Whether there's still bits and pieces of that laying around for use, or whether that'd be deemed OP...

  12. #32
    Community Member esheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    • We’ve also improved how monsters handle being blind, bringing it more in line with how they handle invisibility.
    Any chance that invis will bring with it a 50% miss chance? It does sound a little OP, but from a practicality viewpoint it has merit.

    Also, any chance that with proper skill in move silent a player will be able to perform stealth actions? Like pulling a lever and remaining in sneak mode? or opening a door?

    EDIT: nice work so far though!
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    it will go on and on and on to level 999

  13. #33
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    This sounds fabulous assuming you can mak eit all work correctly.

    One request: Isn't Invisibility suppose to provide a 50% miss chance according to 3.5 D&D rules?
    Since Improved Invis is limited in DDO, I really think this should be added. after all, if they cannot see you aren't they essentually blind? don't you essentially have concealment?

    and... is there a way to account fo rline of sight, when they look for you? For instance, shouldn't I be able to run around a corner and hide, and have them NOT know where I am? Not sure if this wil be possible with what you have in mind so far....

    Thank you in advance for all of your hard work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  14. #34
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Thank you for flattly telling us what you are wanting to do and what we can expect to see. That should help with bug report.

    "Monsters should no longer slide around when they are searching for a hidden enemy. Instead, we’re going to be adding a visual cue that doesn’t look like an animation bug.

    We’re going to try giving them a “searching” icon to indicate that they haven’t found a target yet.
    Similarly, we want to give monsters a “red ear” icon whenever they hear a suspicious noise."

    This part makes me a bit sad though. By popping up an icon over their head it, for me, removes some of the immersion of the game where player skill (such as it is) being able to recognize behaviors of the mobs WAS the visible clue. It required the player to put ranks into Knowledge:Mob vs. cheeply using sign boards to indicate actions.
    I kinda agre...lol

    I "already" know when I agro monsters...
    They already change their behavior visibily, they also make noise.

    Dumb this down and I'm gona loise one of my major advantages as a player....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  15. #35
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    I'm shocked and excited all at once! I miss the early days of ddo where sneak was used to bypass fights. Now it seems as if everyone just runs wildly and kills everything in sight.


    I have a question though:
    Can you increase the incentive to sneak?


    Let me explain:
    1. Increase dubious cunning bonuses (live is so little bonus considering how much harder it is to sneak than kill)
    2. Add more rogue traps and caster "trap" spells
    3. Increase damage of traps and trap spells signicantly (fire trap spell should do double damage of delayed blast fireball considering the extra time etc to set up the trap, on live trap spells and rogue traps are considered to weak to use or too low DCs as it is so much easier to just run around and cast a quickened delayed blast fireball)
    4. Allow spell wards to effect NPCs as well as players (part of DDOs charm is luring enemies into traps, its a shame these traps are so selective)
    5. Allow rogues and artificers to lay spell ward traps!


    Keep up the great work!
    I think the only way to do this is to make getting agro very painful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  16. #36
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddong View Post
    Is this going to make it too easy to Zerg thru quests? Just run by everything, duck around the corner, slam an invis and go into stealth?
    Something to think about if people feel that Invis is becominf abused. Currently, Red Dungeon Alert gives ALL monster See Invis ability. This could be expanded to even Green Alert if needed.

    Actually sneaking takes time (well.. sorta... 30% striders and Fatser Sneaking IV is pretty fast actually...lol)

    Also, I think Move Silently scroe will still play into things.

    Might be awhile before players invset in sneak skills and take time to use it.

    Invis and run is easy. (and it should be)
    IMO, best way to handle abuses of Invis and run is any DA causes See Invis on all mosnsters. real sneakers will not be causing DA. (and can always Hide anyway)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  17. #37
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    As a person who plays a rogue as their main, I am really looking forward to this. I also tend to be sneaky with my other characters. Maybe I can finally make my arcane casters fun for me by adding a little true stealth to them.
    You already can.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqSHCIJ1jo
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    Most critically, we’ve made some performance improvements that should SIGNIFICANTLY reduce AI-related lag and framerate issues, especially in large group and raid situations.

  19. #39
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I really like the potential stated in the OP. It sounds like it could be quite fun. However, I'm not sure if the #1 (at least for me) concern has been addressed. Stealthy players move slower than non stealthy players. In group situations, this means that in order to play stealthy, all players must slow down to the speed of the slowest player, the sneaky one. I find it hard to believe that players will adapt to a new slower system if the "invis and run" technique still works almost as well and allows full speed (+ more as you avoid multiple encounters completely).

    I'm not suggesting a nerf to invisibility, but perhaps a buff to sneaky move speed?
    I've been zerge stealthing for years now in groups.
    Invis helps
    Faster sneaking IV helps a lot.

    But their are many ways to use it in groups already. and fast ways.

    But truthfully the actual stealth skill numbers barely come into play in those situations. my zerge stealth is essentually using sneak mode and other players to avoid agro. mixed with Invis when needed to stand up and run full speed.

    I would like to see options for non-rogues to get faster sneaking enhancments though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  20. #40
    Community Member Weyborn's Avatar
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    This part makes me a bit sad though. By popping up an icon over their head it, for me, removes some of the immersion of the game where player skill (such as it is) being able to recognize behaviors of the mobs WAS the visible clue. It required the player to put ranks into Knowledge:Mob vs. cheeply using sign boards to indicate actions.[/QUOTE]


    I would agree with this - don't make the graphics too video gamey
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