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Thread: AI Awareness!

  1. #41
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    in fallout 1 and 2 you could take silent run feat and just run while being stealthed, that made a very nice gameplay...

    my idea could be to make stealth speed almost equal to normal running speed without enhancement buff (striding)
    and then stealth training enhancement raising it

    here is a simple example:

    while stealthed you cannot benefit from striding effect or similar effect to run speed

    stealth makes you move at 90% of normal running speed

    each tier of stealth training raises your stealth speed:
    stealth training 1 makes stealth speed equal to normal running speed
    stealth training 2 makes stealth speed equal to normal running speed with 10% striding
    stealth training 4 makes stealth speed equal to normal running speed with 30% striding


    this would make sneak party friendly, especially pug friendly...

  2. #42
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post

    We’ll go into more detail about the way stealth will work, particularly for you aspiring Shadar-kai Assassins. For now just be aware that there is a LOT going on with the stealth system at the moment, and the version that first appears on Lamannia is not ready for the spotlight yet. Once we’re closer to a playable test of the new stealth features, we will let you know!
    Several comments. First having a really high move silently and hide skills in game are not rewarded in game correctly. Even with skills scores in 70s I get seen and discovered much too easily. Second, I have noticed that to be a successful sneaker in DDO you have to move really fast which is almost counterintuitive. I was thinking that I had to get faster sneaking 4 and sprint boost 4 for optimum results which in some ways is counterintuitive. Finally, I am very pleased that you are making this effort. Sneaking is a different kind of playstyle which enriches the game giving someone the opportunity to play DDO in different manner then hack and slash or what have you so thank you.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  3. #43
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nayozz View Post
    in fallout 1 and 2 you could take silent run feat and just run while being stealthed, that made a very nice gameplay...

    my idea could be to make stealth speed almost equal to normal running speed without enhancement buff (striding)
    and then stealth training enhancement raising it

    here is a simple example:

    while stealthed you cannot benefit from striding effect or similar effect to run speed

    stealth makes you move at 90% of normal running speed

    each tier of stealth training raises your stealth speed:
    stealth training 1 makes stealth speed equal to normal running speed
    stealth training 2 makes stealth speed equal to normal running speed with 10% striding
    stealth training 4 makes stealth speed equal to normal running speed with 30% striding


    this would make sneak party friendly, especially pug friendly...
    I do not think making sneak party friendly or pug friendly is a realistic goal because it would be either difficult to balance or not conducive to group play. What I would settle for would be making sneak solo friendly because currently it is not solo friendly even. Try soloing with sneak in game with red alert and the various bugs and you will find it is not a realistic endeavor or remotely efficient.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #44
    Community Member Telayna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weyborn View Post
    This part makes me a bit sad though. By popping up an icon over their head it, for me, removes some of the immersion of the game where player skill (such as it is) being able to recognize behaviors of the mobs WAS the visible clue. It required the player to put ranks into Knowledge:Mob vs. cheeply using sign boards to indicate actions.

    I would agree with this - don't make the graphics too video gamey[/QUOTE]

    Instead of making it a flash, make it a buff/debuff on the NPC in question. This way, a skilled stealther would pick up from visual clues only (the mob starts moving in your direction), but a novice stealther could target the mob to watch for when he may be detected by using (ctrl-z). It allows immersion and training and enhanced bug reporting.

    I also think that the NPC should get stacking bonuses for each time he "hears" you. So if he starts to hear you, get out of the way, or get detected.

  5. #45
    Community Member Meetch1972's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I really like the potential stated in the OP. It sounds like it could be quite fun. However, I'm not sure if the #1 (at least for me) concern has been addressed. Stealthy players move slower than non stealthy players. In group situations, this means that in order to play stealthy, all players must slow down to the speed of the slowest player, the sneaky one. I find it hard to believe that players will adapt to a new slower system if the "invis and run" technique still works almost as well and allows full speed (+ more as you avoid multiple encounters completely).

    I'm not suggesting a nerf to invisibility, but perhaps a buff to sneaky move speed?
    This sort of thing occurred to me as I read the OP. The specific case that came to mind was around entering stealth mode and having the invis effect. The net result should mean at the least that the visual aspect of stealth isn't required, but moving silently is, hence you could sneak upright while invisible, hence moving faster. If you really wanted to tie it to Monster AI and the Monster Manual, if the character has enough knowledge to know the mob can't see invis, they automatically sneak "upright", knowing that the mob can't see them.

    TL;DR - sneaking while invisible to allow moving faster than sneaking while not invisible faster than not sneaking would be a nice touch. It might force additional stealth modes or adding a metamagic-like effect to stealth mode allowing you to "assume monsters can see invis".
    Goe ahed... korekt mah spelin'.

  6. #46
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Quite frankly, good show man! I cannot believe that finally somebody actually is taking care of those things.
    Seriously, 7 years is way to long, but better late then never. I mean, you guys obviously never played "Stealty reposession" in sneak mode. :P It's actually played with dungeon alert and in zerg mode with sprint boost and haste.

    Nobody actually used Sap feat. Shame, really. Now it might be viable.

    We’ll go into more detail about the way stealth will work, particularly for you aspiring Shadar-kai Assassins. For now just be aware that there is a LOT going on with the stealth system at the moment, and the version that first appears on Lamannia is not ready for the spotlight yet. Once we’re closer to a playable test of the new stealth features, we will let you know!
    If you fix things only when you need to sell a new thing and your superiors figure out that first impression might be borked, that's not a good thing. You still have a pile of bugs and that's the reason game is rated low 6/10 or 7/10, where it should be 9.5/10... But, wait! You have to dedicate manpower for that and time.

  7. #47
    Community Member red_cardinal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not think making sneak party friendly or pug friendly is a realistic goal because it would be either difficult to balance or not conducive to group play. What I would settle for would be making sneak solo friendly because currently it is not solo friendly even. Try soloing with sneak in game with red alert and the various bugs and you will find it is not a realistic endeavor or remotely efficient.
    This game doesn't have to be realistic. These basic mechanics just have to work correct, nothing else. There shouldn't be a need for "cheating" on AI side or gamer's side.

    As for the balance... They break wail to make casters less powerful. This is NOT intended that way, but that's what they do it. They try a new thing, but they don't test it till the end and they push it into release. And the new thing remains just another entry in the pile of bugs.

  8. #48
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    Hey everyone! Your friendly neighborhood AI designer here! During the next Lamannia update parts of upcoming stealth system changes will be visible. I’m still getting stealth ready for actual previewing at a later time. However, since parts of it will be showing up on Lamannia prematurely during the Enhancements second look, now is a great time to tell you more about what I’ve been working on.

    I'm totally in love with Turbine's new early discussion policy. Thank you very much for braving the cesspool.

    I love my 18/1/1 Ranger, so work in the area of Stealth makes me very happy.

    I'm also a huge fan of any work you do in regards to AI, so yet again, very very happy.

    You've hit my ultimate trifecta: early info, Ranger, and AI. I'm beside myself.

  9. #49
    Community Member Moltier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    snip
    Awesome!
    Thanks for sharing what you are working on!
    If you can make this work like you described, a lot, i mean a LOT of new and experienced players will enjoy the game more. The lag fix is just a bonus.

    So keep up the good work!
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  10. #50
    Community Member SteeleTrueheart's Avatar
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    Thank you.

    I don't care about sneaking all that much, the early communication by Turbine is excellent though. Whoever has led this change in the communication policy should get a pat on the back and a raise!
    Khyber - Officer in The Stormreach Thieves Guild
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Just make our footsteps glow and the monster creep towards the sound. No need for silly ear icons.
    I too would MUCH rather have this than any other icons. Glowing footsteps are a pretty cool idea. I'd prefer to stay away this (big icons), and anything approaching an aggro meter indicator (for tanking). The rest sounds pretty cool.... especially the reduction in lag!

  12. #52
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    SIGH ... alright i tried to post a long, quoted post but the forums hate me and do creepy things if i try to post it so, short version:

    Great to hear from you guys! Pass the word around the team that we really love this kind of communication and if you keep it up this forum will be all puppies barking rainbows in no time!

    Be carefull with too many flashy icons with sneak: they break immersion and dumb down the game (if i fail at sneaking i fail and get mobbed, the lesson i learn is to not fail and avoid my mistakes).

    Feel free to implement this new stilish flashy visible icons for spot! Yeah you heard me, spot! Something that would add a nice touch and utility to the game is if when someone in a party spots a trap or a secret door then one of this flashy icons appears on his/her head warning the rest of the party (no more excuses for fail zerglings barbarians that find traps with their face and die).

    Be extremely careful with assassinate, if you break it most of this sneak rework will be for naught.

    Right now (uhm, haven't tested u18p2) when you assassinate a monster its nearby buddies don't zero on you autodetecting your sorry behind like they used to but instead they investigate their fallen comrade. That's how it should've always been and that's how it should be in the future. So please, for the love of all the soon-to-be-here puppies barking rainbows, don't mess it up!

    Take your time, do it right and THANKS!
    Last edited by delsoboss; 06-26-2013 at 05:22 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I'm totally in love with Turbine's new early discussion policy. Thank you very much for braving the cesspool.

    I love my 18/1/1 Ranger, so work in the area of Stealth makes me very happy.

    I'm also a huge fan of any work you do in regards to AI, so yet again, very very happy.

    You've hit my ultimate trifecta: early info, Ranger, and AI. I'm beside myself.
    Bet you haven't been this happy since you last had a tummy rub.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    We’re going to try giving them a “searching” icon to indicate that they haven’t found a target yet.
    Similarly, we want to give monsters a “red ear” icon whenever they hear a suspicious noise."

    This part makes me a bit sad though. By popping up an icon over their head it, for me, removes some of the immersion of the game where player skill (such as it is) being able to recognize behaviors of the mobs WAS the visible clue. It required the player to put ranks into Knowledge:Mob vs. cheeply using sign boards to indicate actions.
    This is my only issue too. Apart from the overhead icons though, the changes look so awesome they're insane!

  15. #55
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post

    <snip>

    Stealth should have the following advantages over mere invisibility:
    1. <snip>
    2. Assassinate! Still finalizing the application here but the goal is making sure our Assassins can … you know… assassinate things!


    <snip>
    First off: Awesome news!
    But: Please could you expand these awesome new abilities not only to assassins but also deepwood snipers? THANK YOU!
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  16. #56
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    IMO, best way to handle abuses of Invis and run is any DA causes See Invis on all mosnsters. real sneakers will not be causing DA. (and can always Hide anyway)
    Well... remember. Invis may give a 50% miss chance due to 3.5 rules, but also

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm
    "A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it. "

    Hiding doesn't grant the 50% miss. So if mobs had high spot checks on occasion, running Invis is not a fool proof method for avoiding DA either.

  17. #57
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urjak View Post
    First off: Awesome news!
    But: Please could you expand these awesome new abilities not only to assassins but also deepwood snipers? THANK YOU!
    Yeah, Please make sure to include any and all classes that have a horse in the race. Rangers' "hide in plain sight" needs to have some sort of attention paid, right? Shadow Dancer needs to have attention paid. Who know WHAT all in the new enhancement system will need attention paid. Let us know what you're planning, k?

  18. #58

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    Awesome news. My ninjas will approve.

    As many have stated earlier, we "get by" right now and become aware of the AI acting up in certain situations that aren't logical. I'm all for these ideas (with the exception of more overhead icons--as others mentioned, just change the glow on the feet).

    Being able to return to stealth to escape a crowd would be a godsend for rogueish types. I'm all for the ideas. Thanks very much for letting us know.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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  19. #59
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_Dice View Post
    H

    • We want to make red footsteps only appear when a monster actually hears you while you’re sneaking. If you see the red splash, your position has been given away! (It used to play any time you might be heard, but weren’t necessarily actually being heard.)
      • We also want to make the footsteps show when more monsters hear you, such as by making it darker and redder!
      • Invisible characters should also display red footsteps to indicate when a monster can hear them as well. This is only a visual change - monsters could always hear you when you were running around invisible... We're just extending the visual feedback to more situations!

    • White footsteps still indicate that you are sneaking near a monster who might hear you if you get closer, and will still play only if sneaking. That's one of the benefits of trying to be sneaky : )
    • Monsters should no longer slide around when they are searching for a hidden enemy. Instead, we’re going to be adding a visual cue that doesn’t look like an animation bug.
      • We’re going to try giving them a “searching” icon to indicate that they haven’t found a target yet.
      • Similarly, we want to give monsters a “red ear” icon whenever they hear a suspicious noise.

    • We now have the ability to give your character the awareness to know when you have aggro from something. This will allow us to do things like putting you into combat stance rather than standing around idly until you’re getting punched in the head.


    We’re also sending our monsters back to Dungeon Monster 101 class to learn to play by the rules better:

    • We’ve been looking into the ways that monsters could “improperly” detect you. .. They currently cheat and get their target's location every 6 seconds or less even if the target is hidden or invisible, as well as essentially echo-locating players using the sounds of their own ranged attacks. This also has an unintended side effect of being a performance hog. Bad monsters! We want to replace these with fairer ways for the monsters to find players, as well as bring a big performance improvement.
      • We’ve improved the search attack algorithms. They’ll expand their search radius when making blind attacks, hate the target less after a few whiffs, and eventually give up after a number of fruitless attacks where they’re unable to hit anything. If they manage to get a relevant clue on their enemy’s whereabouts, then they’ll resume their search.
      • I’ve begun updating monsters to fire at your most recent known position when they can’t see you, where they used to cheat and fire directly to you when they aren’t supposed to know where you are.

    • We’ve also improved how monsters handle being blind, bringing it more in line with how they handle invisibility.
    • With the updated AI awareness, we’d like it to be possible for a sufficiently skilled player to use sneak to lose monsters after they spot you! This is something that was never possible in combat before because monsters had too many ways to “cheat” and see/hear you if you attempted it.
    • Here are some other “monster vs stealth” behaviors we’re working on:
      • We don’t want scorpions to burrow directly to you when they aren’t supposed to know where you are.
      • We don’t want minotaurs to charge directly to you when they aren’t supposed to know where you are.


    Generally speaking, these changes should have the effect of:
    • Making casual use of sneak actually valid, especially combined with other upcoming changes to how sneak works.
    • Trained use of sneak should be much more effective, and a valid build path/gameplay style that can be enjoyed by many more people.


    Obviously people will have questions about how this brave new world of sneakiness will impact invisibility. One of our goals was to add more value to using stealth in combat even if you are running with a party that does not want to wait for you to sneak ahead. We'd like to support a stealth character as a more viable build path, which can do more stuff that any random character who can slurp an invis potion.

    Stealth should have the following advantages over mere invisibility:
    1. With sufficiently high skill, monsters won’t hear you, allowing you to avoid detection completely as you sneak by (go go move silently!)
    2. Escaping combat using sneak - this largely hasn’t been possible before, but we’d like skilled players with appropriate skills to be able to escape completely by activating sneak and escaping the area where their opponents last saw them. When monsters search the area they lost you in making blind attacks, they should lose aggro over time and eventually give up if they receive no additional clues to your location. I’ve been spending a lot of time on this, as it was the most requested fix by stealth enthusiasts on the forums, and from my testing I think it'll be quite fun : )
    3. Assassinate! Still finalizing the application here but the goal is making sure our Assassins can … you know… assassinate things!


    We’ll go into more detail about the way stealth will work, particularly for you aspiring Shadar-kai Assassins. For now just be aware that there is a LOT going on with the stealth system at the moment, and the version that first appears on Lamannia is not ready for the spotlight yet. Once we’re closer to a playable test of the new stealth features, we will let you know!
    Awesome, awesome news! You will have rolled a big BIG 20 if you can pull this off even close to how it is described.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    I'm not really all that excited for YET ANOTHER new system to be introduced to an (obviously) already overburdened game engine.
    Good luck with your new system. I'm glad you're revamping a system that, while not perfect, seems to work adequately. Let's make no mention of the other things that could use attention, even just within the realm of the UI. New shiny stuff is WAY better than fixing or even completing the other stuff.

    You must have missed the part where it started out by finding bugs and causes for lag there. If a new mechanic enables to take away several not completely working ones that CAUSE lag, and replace them with one simpler mechanic developed with all these causes of lag and errors in mind, its exactly what many of us have been asking for!

    Tirbaalis

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