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  1. #101
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I like that synergy a lot myself but I'm part of the niche, the fact that DDO is so niche tells me that lots of D&D players who made NWN a smash hit didn't like it.
    I'll bet many people didn't like the early version of DDO which was terribly difficult (no dungeon scaling, etc.). Many probably also didn't like Eberron.

    Turbine needs to advertise & generate some hype. It looks like a lot of people showed up to Neverwinter thinking it was D&D but were disappointed. Turbine can take advantage of that and advertise "real D&D" as opposed to whatever the heck NW is.

    They could also carve into the WOW crowd with an "Are you ready to grow up now?" campaign. WoW mesmorized the kiddies but was also built to be played by kiddies.

  2. #102
    Community Member shibe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    cont. from a previous thread.


    That describes the last DDO tracker quarterly graph with peak logins when eGH was released dropping from 20k to 17.5k (does anyone have a cashed copy or a saved version of the last graph? If anyone has it could you post it Please?) Links to DDO tracker all updated to the new graph In the newest graph we see the same dramatic trend downward.



    As we can see the trend continued downward. The Shadowfell prelude quests released in the last update lead to only a minor and very temporary bump up for obvious reasons. Peaks are now very close to 15k or lower for the majority of servers which is a very symmetrical decline from the 20k, and 17.5k marks.

    That's approximately a 2500 drop in the last DDO tracker update, followed by another 2500 drop. 2500 out of 20,000 is over 11%, and in the new graph 2500 out of 17500 is over 15%...

    Even a 15% decline should be startling. a 25% decline on the other hand is pretty massive. A loss of over a quarter of the logins from the peaks at the release of eGH.

    So now that it's clear the game is dramatically less populated since it's last interest generating update, and even significantly less populated than it was in the dead of winter long after last years final interest generating update. Maybe we can get into some productive discussion of how to deal with the reality instead of denying what's obvious and trying to make excuses (though I'm sure someone will point out that it's summer... interestingly that's a contextual distinction, which is something some of you were not willing to give to the previous graph (where the late winter months after the last update were pointed at and context was intentionally ignored) which was cherry picked as evidence that the last graph was "flat" based on only two data points in the entire graph... but people will rationalize anything if they don't wish to believe it enough.

    I wonder if anyone had the old DDO tracker quarterly plots from Motu onward? It would be very interesting to see and compare to the upcoming expansion.
    So whats the point of this discussion? I want more players to join and play and keep playing. Do you have something that you/we can proactively do to make sure that this game stays alive and we all can keep playing and enjoying it? If not what kind of result would you like to get from this discussion? I would like more posts pointing out the finer points of the game over the others, maybe convince those on the fence this a great game. Clearly you put a lot of time and thought into this. Lets shift that effort into something positive. Hmm?

  3. #103
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    Throw a DDO convention?

    I guess you could throw a general MMO convention (since no one does that).

  4. #104
    Community Member Ykt's Avatar
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    IIRC about two-three years ago when people started looking at login numbers (or at least when I became aware of it), they were around 30,000.
    Last edited by Ykt; 06-26-2013 at 05:32 PM.

  5. #105
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    I'll bet many people didn't like the early version of DDO which was terribly difficult (no dungeon scaling, etc.). Many probably also didn't like Eberron.

    Turbine needs to advertise & generate some hype. It looks like a lot of people showed up to Neverwinter thinking it was D&D but were disappointed. Turbine can take advantage of that and advertise "real D&D" as opposed to whatever the heck NW is.

    They could also carve into the WOW crowd with an "Are you ready to grow up now?" campaign. WoW mesmorized the kiddies but was also built to be played by kiddies.
    Both of these are pretty clever ideas, I think DDO needs to get out there more. Their marketing since they ****ed about Atari so much, has been surprisingly non existent... a brief stint of TV commercials... that's pretty much it.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I'm not a bat-****-crazy lunatic.
    We are having a serious discussion here. Please post evidence that supports your claim.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I agree... Do I really need to point all the posts that DON'T point out issues or offer solutions, and instead just claim Turbine could be better run by monkeys? Then that person logs right back into the game, of course.
    Now Thrudh, are you referring to me here? I ask, since your previous post included a quote from me. If you were not referring to me, no harm, no foul.

    On the other hand, if you were referring to me, please link the post where I said that "Turbine could be better run by monkeys". I'd hate to think that you were fabricating yet again.

  8. #108
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shibe View Post
    So whats the point of this discussion? I want more players to join and play and keep playing. Do you have something that you/we can proactively do to make sure that this game stays alive and we all can keep playing and enjoying it? If not what kind of result would you like to get from this discussion? I would like more posts pointing out the finer points of the game over the others, maybe convince those on the fence this a great game. Clearly you put a lot of time and thought into this. Lets shift that effort into something positive. Hmm?
    The point I suppose that goes back to people making the correct observation that LFM's are down, groups are taking longer to fill, and the population dropping off drastically a few weeks after updates. These observations were met with excuses (thus the title of the thread) and general disbelief.

    Positive suggestions are all over the place. Improve the LFM system so it can survive the lower numbers of players more easily (wider level ranges, easier flagging, more new player friendly features like teleport to quest, changes to BB that also widen level ranges etc.) right now it's actually making people leave due to the strangulation effect it has when there's little going on and the game appears dead (people leave when they sit waiting for groups or waiting to fill, they just go elsewhere looking for more of a healthy game) advertize, reinvigorate the player base by putting an end game at end game... Stop making announcements that seem tremendously unpopular by the majority that have expressed opinions, stop executing the forum community in the head with this retarded broken forum... Start trying to make the game MORE FUN, and stop trying to make the game LESS FUN (across the board nerfs in the enhancement alpha, uber grind repetition in Epic TR's).

    The point of this thread is that we needed to establish there there's indeed a problem among some of the last hangers on clinging to the idea that nothing is wrong, so we could start discussing suggestions and positive action without the usual "none of this is needed because the game is just fine as it is" derails.

    Turbine undoubtedly knows the player base is declining precipitously: the Hasty announcement of an expansion pack out of the blue, and the just as sudden pre-order availability with half the perks not ready and no details of the quests, and no raids, and they weren't even sure there were going to be EPIC version of the quests until weeks later... The "Summer break" for guild renown... is another minor sign... They know the game is osculating wildly between updates. I am not sure they have a handle on how best to improve things. As it seems that Epic TR is the new Endgame... something I have zero plans to participate in, because I'm not into TR's in general.

    My favorite idea is an old one that I started a thread about last week and a non costly and fairly fast one: revamp old endgame have it scale to cap/new caps and give people something to do at cap with those neat ED abilities that by the time you've farmed them currently you have literally nothing interesting to do with them except the odd EE. or TR and rinse repeat.

  9. #109
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    There is nothing intelligent about hand waving 6 months of data that correlates to basic observations. It's actually irrational to dismiss evidence simply because you don't want to believe it.

    It is also anti-intellectual to characterize one side of an argument as "intelligent" while implying the opposite of the other side, simply because you agree with that side.
    I dismiss the data in the graph because it covers a relatively short period of time and there is really no point of reference.

    I don't care if people think the DDO population is up or down. I personally think it's down, but who cares - it's a guess. I only have a problem with people using the data from the graph to support their points, because it doesn't.

  10. #110
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    There is nothing intelligent about hand waving 6 months of data that correlates to basic observations. It's actually irrational to dismiss evidence simply because you don't want to believe it.
    Speaking of intelligence, since when does 90 days = six months? Your graph is a 90-day snapshot. DDO is over 7 years old, so drawing conclusions from this graph is a lot like looking outside one day and concluding what the weather will be/has been for the entire month.


    You need more data to back up your claim let alone present 'evidence' of a trend.

  11. #111
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I dismiss the data in the graph because it covers a relatively short period of time and there is really no point of reference.

    Exactly. It would be like posting the snapshot for the last 30 days and concluding that the player population is trending upwards.
    Last edited by Postumus; 06-26-2013 at 07:54 PM.

  12. #112
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Speaking of intelligence, since when does 90 days = six months? Your graph is a 90-day snapshot. DDO is over 7 years old, so drawing conclusions from this graph is a lot like looking outside one day and concluding what the weather will be/has been for the entire month.


    You need more data to back up your claim let alone present 'evidence' of a trend.
    Good god, do you not read the threads in which you post? This is the second three-month graph posted recently, which is a total of 6 months - and is showing a steady downward trend.

    Seriously, who is it benefiting for the fanbois to pretend that nothing is happening to this game? Almost everyone I know who has played this game is completely burned out post-u17, and the rest are uneasily awaiting the enhancement beta/TR pass to see if it's still worth playing...and many of these people are quite the diehard players.

    Personally, I'm waiting until the next enhancement pass to see if all the feedback made a difference before I make my decision, but it's worthless to pretend that many people aren't even waiting for that...as I can tell from the low number of people in the top-end guilds, channels, and such on my server.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Turbine needs to advertise & generate some hype. It looks like a lot of people showed up to Neverwinter thinking it was D&D but were disappointed. Turbine can take advantage of that and advertise "real D&D" as opposed to whatever the heck NW is.

    They could also carve into the WOW crowd with an "Are you ready to grow up now?" campaign. WoW mesmorized the kiddies but was also built to be played by kiddies.
    The problem with advertising is that it is expensive. About the only medium of advertising that is fairly inexpensive, while still reaching a broad audience, is internet based advertising. Despite what some people say, DDO did advertise fairly extensively last summer. Actually, from June through October, I saw a tremendous amount of Google based advertising.

    The flood of new customers that Turbine obviously thought they could attract with MotU don't appear to have materialized.

    I suspect most WoW customers, faced with an "in your face" type advertising campaign, would look at DDO's puny customer base, compared to the one they are used to seeing with WoW, and simply dismiss it as mindless ranting for some game that never achieved critical mass. I'd have the same reaction if a 7 year old came up to me and challenged me to a fight.

    7 is a pertinent number here, because DDO is 7 years old, and looks it. Back before MotU was released, and the game still had a full set of raids worth running, my toon used to stand out in Korthos while waiting for the LFM to fill. I'd hand out free plat, answer questions and listen to the comments of the newbies. I used to cringe at the number of times I saw people type into general chat "OMG! How old is this game anyway?"

    Sorry, but those of you who dream about a horde of new players coming to rescue DDO are just kidding themselves. You are simply letting your emotions cloud your judgment.

    Those of you who are dreaming of radically re-engineering DDO to address what you perceive as its short comings also need to get realistic. The budget is currently bare bones, as evidenced by

    1) this crappy forum
    2) the minimal size of Update 18
    3) the inability of DDO to even make substantial fixes to the game in Update 18.1 and 18.2

    In fact, the theme of 2013 has been radical retrenchment for DDO across the board. Turbine is doing what every company does for a product at this stage in its life cycle -- reduce expenses to the minimum it believes is acceptable while milking the remaining customers for the maximum profit that can be obtained for the remaining life span of the product.

    Some of the people on these forums trying to present themselves as anything other than entry level software engineers really need to stop trying to fake it. Your lack of knowledge, along with the obviously excessive amounts of time you can devote to playing the game, clearly mark you for exactly what you are.

    Turbine would best be served by trying to hold onto the customers it already has, rather than further alienating them.

  14. #114
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its called being a better customer. Those who never ever post criticism and ignore every single thing that has gone wrong contribute less to making the game better than those who enjoy playing, but choose to post what would make them enjoy playing it MORE. Chances are, most of their recommendations would also cause you to enjoy the game more as well.
    Every 'fanboi" on these forums posts criticisms along with ideas on how to make it better... There is NO ONE (who posts regularly) who hasn't posted constructive criticism at times...

    However, there are a few people who post nothing but negative rants at least once a day, AND STILL PLAY. How is that possible? What could possibly be so wrong with someone that they would do that?

    The major issue I see is the blind defenders trying to label customers who enjoy the game but provide feedback on how it could be better as doomsayers in each and every disagreement, then telling them if they dont like it to go do something else.
    This is a false argument. Link me a post where someone provided feedback on how it could be made better but was told to go somewhere else. I'm talking about the people who DO NOT POST FEEDBACK. Just... "Monkeys could code better than this". Or "Once again, the devs totally screwed up... I expected no less." But of the thousand video games they could be playing, they still log on to this one...

    I have no idea how they resolve this dichotomy in their minds...

    Show me one post where I responded to someone giving CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM to "leave if they don't like it".
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  15. #115
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I dismiss the data in the graph because it covers a relatively short period of time and there is really no point of reference.

    I don't care if people think the DDO population is up or down. I personally think it's down, but who cares - it's a guess. I only have a problem with people using the data from the graph to support their points, because it doesn't.
    You dismiss the graph because of "handwave". If you want to dismiss objective evidence for no rational reason whatsoever go ahead. I'm not interested in arguing with anyone who does that. At least you're admitting the game seems to be down. Which basically reads like: Okay the earth is probably round but I'm not interested in in hearing about this Eratosthenes fellow.

  16. #116
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Every 'fanboi" on these forums posts criticisms along with ideas on how to make it better... There is NO ONE (who posts regularly) who hasn't posted constructive criticism at times...
    Lets not confuse blind defense with constructive criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    However, there are a few people who post nothing but negative rants at least once a day, AND STILL PLAY. How is that possible? What could possibly be so wrong with someone that they would do that?
    Still got friends in the game - the number one reason to stay playing an MMO after 7+ years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is a false argument. Link me a post where someone provided feedback on how it could be made better but was told to go somewhere else. I'm talking about the people who DO NOT POST FEEDBACK. Just... "Monkeys could code better than this". Or "Once again, the devs totally screwed up... I expected no less." But of the thousand video games they could be playing, they still log on to this one...
    ...Because their friends still log into this one.

    The people who tell them to go away if they don't like it are down to single digits on one hand as far as headcount is concerned. Most of the rest who used to do this either took their own advice and moved on, or realized that theres no way in hell in todays DDO that blind defense of the game is even possible anymore - as ignoring everything that has gone wrong over the past few years just isn't realistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Show me one post where I responded to someone giving CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM to "leave if they don't like it".
    Against the forum rules to link posts from other threads - its considered bringing arguments from other threads into this one. Ive been baited into that before - not gonna happen again. Also: A lot of constructive criticism gets labeled as doom saying - you and I do not agree on what is considered doom saying and what is considered constructive criticism.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #117
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Speaking of intelligence, since when does 90 days = six months? Your graph is a 90-day snapshot. DDO is over 7 years old, so drawing conclusions from this graph is a lot like looking outside one day and concluding what the weather will be/has been for the entire month.


    You need more data to back up your claim let alone present 'evidence' of a trend.
    I dropped a 7 year graph on you once, and you denied that one too. What will be interesting to see is how long the people who return for the expansion stay. Office pool, any takers? I got 6 weeks. The people who are all playing other games come back on day 1 of the expansion, and by 6 weeks its back to a ghost town like it is right now.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #118
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Speaking of intelligence
    Yes lets speak of that, as in how intelligent is it to jump into a discussion without actually reading any of it at all?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svartelric View Post
    54k players logged in Runescape atm... I think it's a tie.
    Hate to break it to you, but that's not even in the same ballpark. DDO logged in population at primetime, across all servers, is in the neighborhood of 10,000 -and that's assuming a very significant percentage of the population is anonymous.

  20. #120
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    The budget is currently bare bones, as evidenced by

    1) this crappy forum
    What's weird is that it cost them money to make the change... Leaving the old forums would have been cheaper.

    I have NO idea why they spent money and time to replace a perfectly good forum with this absolute piece of **** one. I visit a dozen or so forums during the week, and this is the absolute worst one, by far.


    Your lack of knowledge, along with the obviously excessive amounts of time you can devote to playing the game, clearly mark you for exactly what you are.
    You farmed some stupid chest 450 times last Sunday, I believe? Isn't it ironic...
    Last edited by Thrudh; 06-26-2013 at 10:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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