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  1. #81
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    LOL.

    I may be a fanboi, but at least I'm not a bat-****-crazy lunatic. Because if you continue to play a game you hate, there's seriously something wrong with you... On the other hand, if you secretly enjoy playing a game, but you continue to post bile about it, there's also something seriously wrong with you.
    You can love a game but still question it's direction.

    You can point out issues and it it doesn't mean you hate anything.

    People who point out problems should be listened to, "all is fine" sycophants should be ignored.

    Player numbers are down, end-game is dead. This is reality in DDO. This needs to be addressed.

  2. #82
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You can point out issues and it it doesn't mean you hate anything.
    I agree... Do I really need to point all the posts that DON'T point out issues or offer solutions, and instead just claim Turbine could be better run by monkeys? Then that person logs right back into the game, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  3. #83
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    Sadly, this is close to truth. The target audience for this game has been and will continue be for a while yet those people who played or still play D&D. That's a small but significant market segment
    Actually the D&D market is enormously larger than even WoW's subscriber base.

    NWN was a much more successful game than DDO , it was apparent from my own experiences that the huge player base DDO could have cultivated from NWN mostly were turned off by key issues with DDO versus NWN. Foremost being the FPS style twitch skill controls (instead of point and click movement) and followed closely by DDO's much less faithful translation of the rules, and all the problems that created in the gameplay (Zerging chief among them) Now obviously lots of DDO's hangers on, love the twitch combat and the zerging, so they will naturally disagree that these things are bad, but the evidence is self evident. The game is in a niche that even F2P couldn't drag it out of.

    That said DDO has seemingly dropped the ball when it comes to marketing and positioning their game. Part of the problem is that new players can hit a wall composed of Elite player expectations, twitch skills, meta gaming and quest difficulty. Get turned off quickly and leave the game. DDO gets quite hard later in the game, it's filled with differing spatial and situational awareness demands, but yet at the same time has atrocious feedback and UI design. Basic stuff like showing the player they are dangerously low on health or Mana (tiny bars with no graphical flashing/warning of any sort) the barely perceptible "highlight" when you select a party members bar (the highlight at their feet is better but often not useful due to visual combat and spell spam on screen) and a host of other needless and low quality Alpha/place holder seeming UI design choices are problems for me consistently and I've been playing for years. I night at least once a night because my situational awareness did not think I was very close to dead, but the games feedback didn't poke me and tell me "no buddy you best be hitting that heal right now". Years of playing and I still die due to no realizing i'm at low health? I play and have played a very large number of games and I do not have that problem in any of them.

    In short DDO is a game that mostly is loved by various degrees of hard core gamers. It is harder to play than it needs to be (poor feedback), it is plagued by arbitrary design choices that are piled on top of poor rules translation (Dungeon Alert doesn't need to exist, only a rules faithful version of attacks of Opportunity as NWN had, which had no zerging problem). It only poorly resembles the most hack and slash style of D&D, due to the zerging and the meta gaming (there's a trap coming up jump over it, we don't need to kill that monster, he doesn't have worthwhile loot). All of which completely turn off anyone who's into "Dungeon crawling" finding every secret, opening every chest, in fact they are even ostracized by the player base being called "flower sniffers".

    Yes DDO has lots of problems but market segment wasn't one of them, squarely missing your market segment due to all the above was IMO DDO's main issue. and is why it's a niche game that has never stepped out of it's niche.

    Invariably Thrudh is going to ask why in the hell I play it, that's easy I love FPS's and am a hard core gamer, I can appreciate DDO as a twitch version of D&D for the same reason I can appreciate Sabbath with Dio... I don't think of it as Sabbath, I think of it as Dio with the guys from Sabbath providing the riffs. DDO is Quake with swords for me, basically.

  4. #84
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I agree... Do I really need to point all the posts that DON'T point out issues or offer solutions, and instead just claim Turbine could be better run by monkeys? Then that person logs right back into the game, of course.
    Monkeys never would have done offerwall, Daily dice, or the shard exchange. It's a valid argument.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    That said DDO has seemingly dropped the ball when it comes to marketing and positioning their game. Part of the problem is that new players can hit a wall composed of Elite player expectations, twitch skills, meta gaming and quest difficulty. Get turned off quickly and leave the game.
    They completely fixed this problem yesterday by sending new players to Wayfinder. No more expectations from other players anymore, because for new players now, there are no other players.

  6. #86
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    In all honesty, I'd love to see some long-term numbers (like, a graph from u8 or so to now)...but decreasing population wouldn't survive me - after all, as someone who was a diehard DDO fan not too long ago, I'm surprised how quickly bad decisions on Turbine's part has diminished my desire to play (the info about the enhancement pass, TRing, seeing how much less loot dropped post-u17.1 from eGH, the expansion being a joke, u18 being level 15 quests, the list goes on) to the point where, in my two play sessions since u18, I've managed to get my sorc to level 2 a couple weeks ago to test something, and did an elite ToD on my monkcher the day after u18 to test something else.

    Add in the fact that it's still hard to post on these forums due to being logged out, and it's no surprise that I spend most of my time (mainly been playing other games, like BL2 since Tiny Tina's DLC released yesterday, or Path of Exile because it's friggin' awesome) and money (paid for my yearly subscription in May before I really considered how little I've played, haven't bought the expansion, and have seen little that makes me want to either buy the expansion or continue to renew my subscription after it expires next year).

    It's at the point now where, unless some significant changes are seen in the next few months...I don't know if DDO will survive, but I also know myself and many others simply won't care any longer.

    Edit: I should note that, in the group of friends I keep for online gaming, I'm considered almost a DDO apologist...the fact that I'm souring on it has convinced them all to never try DDO if they haven't, or to never bother returning if they had.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 06-26-2013 at 01:34 PM.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  7. #87
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    They completely fixed this problem yesterday by sending new players to Wayfinder. No more expectations from other players anymore, because for new players now, there are no other players.
    I at first thought that was a bad idea but the more I think about it it makes sense.

    The game is more fun to discover stuff on your own with people at your level of skill.

    I mean us vets rarely run with new people and when we do we blow through stuff at warp-speed, they barely get to see the quest. What value do vets add for new players?

  8. #88
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    . . .DDO gets quite hard later in the game, it's filled with differing spatial and situational awareness demands, but yet at the same time has atrocious feedback and UI design. . .
    This is why I say the game started dying in U11. LOB was ridiculous at first, even on normal you had to be hardcore to pull it off. This also came with the other raid changes where EDragon, EDQ, and Elite TOD became very difficult.

    We had the same stupidity with Fall of Truth. When it first came out we had a fun raid that everybody liked and gave the hard-core a nice challenge on Elite. But we can't have that in DDO, we can't have a new raid that's actually fun. We have to have the developers come out with some such absurdly stupid mechanics, the kind of nonsense a PnP DM would have a bowl of Doritos dumped on his head if he tried to pull on an in-person session, in the name of "challenge" that an EH pug is as likely to fail as it is to complete.

    This was a sign that the new/casual/not-hardcore players were not welcome at end-game. Next thing you know . . . DDO has no end-game.

    I'll give the devs a hint . . . we need a new Shroud, not a new LOB.

  9. #89
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    LOL.

    I may be a fanboi, but at least I'm not a bat-****-crazy lunatic. Because if you continue to play a game you hate, there's seriously something wrong with you... On the other hand, if you secretly enjoy playing a game, but you continue to post bile about it, there's also something seriously wrong with you.
    Its called being a better customer. Those who never ever post criticism and ignore every single thing that has gone wrong contribute less to making the game better than those who enjoy playing, but choose to post what would make them enjoy playing it MORE. Chances are, most of their recommendations would also cause you to enjoy the game more as well.

    The extremists on both sides - the always positive no matter what and the always negative no matter what -arent helping. The major issue I see is the blind defenders trying to label customers who enjoy the game but provide feedback on how it could be better as doomsayers in each and every disagreement, then telling them if they dont like it to go do something else. Now that ~25% more of the population has heeded that advice, with evidence that its not trending back upwards....those little remarks are beginning to backfire. If you really do enjoy playing, you wont ask everyone who disagrees with your assessment that there is nothing wrong with the game to just leave if they dont like it, because if they did so, the rest of the servers will start looking like Wayfinder.

    The most realistic customers are hey diddle diddle, right in the middle. They like using the product, and are willing to provide suggestions on what could be done to make them enjoy it even more.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    There is nothing intelligent about hand waving 6 months of data that correlates to basic observations. It's actually irrational to dismiss evidence simply because you don't want to believe it.

    It is also anti-intellectual to characterize one side of an argument as "intelligent" while implying the opposite of the other side, simply because you agree with that side.
    Hey, leave me out of this. I made no claim to intellect of any capacity.

    (But I will say that the data presented in the OP cover only three months, not six; unjournaled observational data are called "anecdotal"; I rarely hand wave except to indicate departure or arrival.)
    The newest computer can merely compound, at speed, the oldest problem in the relations between human beings, and in the end the communicator will be confronted with the old problem, of what to say and how to say it. - Edward R. Murrow (1964)

  11. #91
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Some pertinent qoutes from some old dead guy, Edmund Burke 1769-1770:

    It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare.
    Observations on a Late Publication on the Present State of the Nation


    A man full of warm, speculative benevolence may wish his society otherwise constituted than he finds it, but a good patriot and a true politician always considers how he shall make the most of the existing materials of his country. A disposition to preserve and an ability to improve, taken together, would be my standard of a statesman. Everything else is vulgar in the conception, perilous in the execution. - Edmund Burke on the French Revolution 1790 (read between the lines)

    When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing (paraphrased from above)


    One could almost swear that this guy somehow reached into the future to foresee the arguments we get up to on these and other forums... why.. its almost like this type of debate has been going on for centuries.

    Group A does Thing B
    Group B and D is effected by Group A's decision and proceed to either complain, not complain, or adore the change creating the "haters" the "apologists" and the "unspoken"...

    Figure out which group you fall in, and then take some advice. Do what you need to do to get your message out, and dont stop until action is taken on your message that meets your desires, less others who feel the same and are afraid to speak, dont. Others wont carry a flag you yourself can't be bothered to carry.

  12. #92
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    It's summer again and once again the number of people who choose to stay inside and game drops as the weather gets nice and outdoor stuff and vacations come on line. Happens pretty much every year that I can recall.
    Sarlona - Stormreach Requisition Company (SRC):Jareko-Elf Ranger12Rogue8; Hennako-Human Cleric20; Rukio-Human Paladin18; Taellya-Halfling Rogue16; Zenako-Dwarf Fighter10Cleric1; Daniko-Drow Bard20; Kerriganko-Human Cleric18; Buket-WF Fighter6; Xenophilia-Human Wiz20; Zenakotwo-Dwarf Cleric16; Yadnomko-Halfling Ftr12; Gabiko-Human Bard15;more

  13. #93
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    A lot of people play MMOs only when new content comes out that they want to play. It's not unusual for a bump during a new patch and then a big loss afterwards. WoW also routinely gains and loses 10-20% of it's subs around an expansion.

  14. #94
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    LOL.

    I may be a fanboi, but at least I'm not a bat-****-crazy lunatic. Because if you continue to play a game you hate, there's seriously something wrong with you... On the other hand, if you secretly enjoy playing a game, but you continue to post bile about it, there's also something seriously wrong with you.
    Would you be a lunatic if you were in a frenzy to get your loved one into rehab? I think many families out there have someone in need. Society may think they are crazy, but in reality the family is trying to do what they can to get their family member back on track. That is all I am doing. Trying to set Turbine on the right path before it is too late.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I love FPS's and am a hard core gamer, I can appreciate DDO as a twitch version of D&D
    I'd say this is also the market DDO misses because I never saw them try to highlight that difference or really any outside whatever tiny closed world they were advertising to.

    I love all the old D&D dungeon crawlers, and all the old FPS games. At it's best, DDO is a synthesis of the two that is hugely fun to play. I get my crack fix on the combat, and my intellectual fix on the character customization. Some of us want both in the same package, and I can't think I'm alone in that.

  16. #96
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    Hey, leave me out of this. I made no claim to intellect of any capacity.

    (But I will say that the data presented in the OP cover only three months, not six; unjournaled observational data are called "anecdotal"; I rarely hand wave except to indicate departure or arrival.)
    This thread is part II we have data back to January. Unfortunately no one saved a jpg of the last quarters graph that was in the last thread, and DDO oracle overwrote the previous file, so old links point to the current graph. This is why I asked if anyone saved the last graph to disk. But it's not a big deal we've already discussed it's finer points, including peaks around 20k during eGH release and a late winter dip that corresponds to the lull in content right before eGH was put out. In part 1 that two week data point around 17.5k was used sans context, to determine that the graph was "flat" by some people who wanted to ignore months of data to focus only on the two weeks again ignoring context. Now that we've dropped around (mostly below) 15k, or a 15% reduction from 17.5k during that late winter lull, at a time when many kids are out of school and populating the servers to the point that "October" (when they go back to school) is a well known dead spot every year... In other words this drop in activity would be even more precipitous if not for school letting out.

    We all would love relative data from past years to compare to; this would give us a better perspective of where the game WAS... however looking at the drop off the first couple weeks after eGH came out is highly informative, it tells us what many can already see in the game; that a large drop off in players happened from then to now and that there is a lot less to do right now.

  17. #97
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I'd say this is also the market DDO misses because I never saw them try to highlight that difference or really any outside whatever tiny closed world they were advertising to.

    I love all the old D&D dungeon crawlers, and all the old FPS games. At it's best, DDO is a synthesis of the two that is hugely fun to play. I get my crack fix on the combat, and my intellectual fix on the character customization. Some of us want both in the same package, and I can't think I'm alone in that.
    I like that synergy a lot myself but I'm part of the niche, the fact that DDO is so niche tells me that lots of D&D players who made NWN a smash hit didn't like it.

    And frankly being a widely played gamer who enjoys every genre I can see why they didn't. Point and click movement takes less eye hand coordination, is much more "beer and pretzels" , and is generally the standard for CRPG's historically and even currently.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I agree that Sebastian is intelligent, but you cannot say others are wrong. Just look at the numbers and tell me if you think I am wrong.

    Why did Turbine turn off decay for nearly two months? Why are they just now thinking of altering the xp needed for a tr? Why are these two things coming up now?

    Is it because the only “end game” we will have is to tr, even after the expansion? Are they trying to keep the players that are currently playing happy so that they do not walk away as well?

    Sure it is just speculation because we do not know what Turbine’s numbers look like, but why did they not address the problem with guild decay or the amount of xp needed when people were complaining about it years ago? From what I see (no matter how unintelligent you think it is) is that Turbine realizes that they are starting to lose to many –people and they will have to start giving people what they want before they lose to many to sustain the game.

    If this is unintelligent please let me know how with more than just calling it a troll or im a jerk post.
    The flaw in your premise is that there's many of us who worked hard to get our small guilds to 100 and worked hard to get completionist. Turbine's changes to once again move towards a casual game by eliminating some of the only competition left is going to anger many of us, making your point moot. They've simply angered another group of players while making another group happy.

    These changes will keep casuals around longer, but this won't help endgame, because more endgame players will be alienated and leaving, now that their years of achievements are erased.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is why I say the game started dying in U11. LOB was ridiculous at first, even on normal you had to be hardcore to pull it off. This also came with the other raid changes where EDragon, EDQ, and Elite TOD became very difficult.

    We had the same stupidity with Fall of Truth. When it first came out we had a fun raid that everybody liked and gave the hard-core a nice challenge on Elite. But we can't have that in DDO, we can't have a new raid that's actually fun. We have to have the developers come out with some such absurdly stupid mechanics, the kind of nonsense a PnP DM would have a bowl of Doritos dumped on his head if he tried to pull on an in-person session, in the name of "challenge" that an EH pug is as likely to fail as it is to complete.

    This was a sign that the new/casual/not-hardcore players were not welcome at end-game. Next thing you know . . . DDO has no end-game.

    I'll give the devs a hint . . . we need a new Shroud, not a new LOB.
    It's becoming quite clear that you aren't at all aware of what makes a strong and long lasting endgame. Here's a hint, it isn't easy quests that can be mastered and beat in a day.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I like that synergy a lot myself but I'm part of the niche, the fact that DDO is so niche tells me that lots of D&D players who made NWN a smash hit didn't like it.

    And frankly being a widely played gamer who enjoys every genre I can see why they didn't. Point and click movement takes less eye hand coordination, is much more "beer and pretzels" , and is generally the standard for CRPG's historically and even currently.
    Lolth knows you can't hold a beer in your hand while trying to efficiently execute Monk high speed button mashing.

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