Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Newport Beach, Ca
    Posts
    1,801

    Default Remove Max caster level from spells

    An increasingly important issue that has caused some confusion in the game has been artificially capped caster levels in DDO. Some spells such as aid (8 temp hit points +1 per caster level, max caster level 10) are capped so low so as to be reduced ineffective, and there are numerous examples of community named "worthless spells". With more an more items being added to the game, as well as epic destinies increasing "caster levels", allot of confusion has been caused, simply because the vast majority of spells in ddo have artificially capped caster levels so those extra "caster levels" don't really do anything at all.



    What I propose is simple:
    Remove the max caster level from spells



    What this change will do/what is needed:
    1. Some spells will gain power relative to others that were previously uncapped
    2. Better scaling for casters in general
    3. Better itemization for casters (add more raid loot etc with "increased caster level")
    4. Some spells may need there damage dice adjusted slightly
    5. Make ANY increase in caster level a sought after goal for casters, and eliminate confusion over its value



    P.S. I really think epic destinies should not effect caster levels (unless as a specific talent) but rather epic LEVELS increase caster level. Will also make it easier. For casters in picking ED trees instead of feeling forced into trees assosciated with their class, which Melee characters do not have to deal with.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  2. #2
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    4,574

    Default

    While I'm not sure I agree that an accross the board uncapping of mcl is the right answer, there was definitely a reason the pnp Epic Handbook introduced 10th level Epic Spells. Caster power hasn't exactly scaled appropriately with Epic DDO.

    I'm hesitant to start suggesting/discussing what would be appropriate until we see the final (live) draft of the enhancement overhaul, as that will largely determine what the Heroic "base" is that Epic will need to scale up from.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  3. #3
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Newport Beach, Ca
    Posts
    1,801

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    While I'm not sure I agree that an accross the board uncapping of mcl is the right answer, there was definitely a reason the pnp Epic Handbook introduced 10th level Epic Spells. Caster power hasn't exactly scaled appropriately with Epic DDO.

    I'm hesitant to start suggesting/discussing what would be appropriate until we see the final (live) draft of the enhancement overhaul, as that will largely determine what the Heroic "base" is that Epic will need to scale up from.
    The problem being is that enhancements dont really scale spells at all, especially since the highest tiers of enhancements will be available at level 5. Removing max caster level will also improve some spells being less desirable than others artificially because they simply cap at a lower level.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  4. #4

    Default

    I dont hate your idea of removing max caster level entirely, but to be honest my gut reaction would be to vote no largely from ignorance. I don't know what actual impact that would have on the game.

    However...
    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    P.S. I really think epic destinies should not effect caster levels (unless as a specific talent) but rather epic LEVELS increase caster level. Will also make it easier. For casters in picking ED trees instead of feeling forced into trees assosciated with their class, which Melee characters do not have to deal with.
    ...this I love, love, love. Yes, please this.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,104

    Default

    There will be no Epic Spells, if there where any plans they would (and should) have been implented a long time ago with motu.

    As it is now, most spells, even from the higher lvl categories are useless.
    Removing the cap from all spells would need some adjustments in SP costs but it also would leave us with a lot more usefull spells.
    Which is strongly needed as there are no new spells since forever and DC casting is beyond useless now and will only further decline.

    So yes, definitely /Signed
    Taenebrae, Daemonsoul, Daemoneyes and Daemonheart of Argonessen
    Glitzakram - Trade Thread

  6. #6
    Community Member Moltier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Hungary, Budapest
    Posts
    779

    Default

    CR:60 Human caster hit you for 4259 points of cold damage.
    It would be fun!
    Cannith
    Csodaszarvas
    Valyria - Hulkie - Sillymilly - Killberry - Silvyanna - Walour - Corgak - Thalrian-1

  7. #7
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    4,574

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    There will be no Epic Spells, if there where any plans they would (and should) have been implented a long time ago with motu.

    As it is now, most spells, even from the higher lvl categories are useless.
    Removing the cap from all spells would need some adjustments in SP costs but it also would leave us with a lot more usefull spells.
    Which is strongly needed as there are no new spells since forever and DC casting is beyond useless now and will only further decline.

    So yes, definitely /Signed
    Personally, I think the DC issue is of much more importance and impact than MCL. For instance, removing MCL from Magic Missle makes it an absolutely ungodly beast of a spell (how many missles at CL 28?); while Lightning Bolt would also get a large boost, that boost would be halved/nullified on a successful save/evade vs the existing DC; and uncapping MCL does little to nothing for CC/Finger/etc. That's why I feel a blanket uncapping would be inappropriate.

    That said, I'm not at all a-posed to MCL modifications, for instance I think the idea of basing them off (Heroic/Epic) total level is spot-on. I just don't think it's the be-all end-all solution, or in it's self an adequate to fix the larger problem.

    As far as "should've been implemented with MotU but wasn't," so won't be in the future the same could (and has) been said about Epic TR; yet here they are proposing it's introduction, and with a proposal that would've made much more sense back at MotU. So the fact that they should've done it already doesn't mean they won't.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-25-2013 at 02:22 AM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  8. #8
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Miasto Stołeczne Warszawa (The Capital City of Warsaw)
    Posts
    6,706

    Default

    Yeah, I'm sure shiradis spamming MMs 24/7 would be very happy...

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    What I propose is simple:
    Remove the max caster level from spells
    What you suggest is simple, and also ridiculous.


    1. Some spells will gain power relative to others that were previously uncapped
    This needs to be rewritten as all spells will gain power, and some of them will gain absolutely ridiculous amounts of power for their SP cost.
    2. Better scaling for casters in general
    How, exactly? The only 'scaling' issue that I see here is that what you suggest will make spamming level 3 and 4 spells for dirt cheap spell points trump using any other spell.
    3. Better itemization for casters (add more raid loot etc with "increased caster level")
    This is just outright incorrect.
    4. Some spells may need there damage dice adjusted slightly
    The only result here is a nerf to casters at low levels, and a massive buff at high levels.
    5. Make ANY increase in caster level a sought after goal for casters, and eliminate confusion over its value
    I have never known anyone to be confused about this, except for how it relates to spells that do not have a listed maximum caster level. Ever. I would be curious about where this confusion sets in.


    The problem being is that enhancements dont really scale spells at all, especially since the highest tiers of enhancements will be available at level 5. Removing max caster level will also improve some spells being less desirable than others artificially because they simply cap at a lower level.
    This does not reflect the actual situation in the slightest bit, since every single point spent in any 'caster' Tree scales spell damage in the Enhancement Tree system.

    I would not want anyone to mistake this for endorsement of the Caster Trees that have been shown in the Enhancement Tree Alpha. There are many, many things that deserve criticism about them, such as the lack of divine spell penetration, the loss of caster damage through nerfed spell criticals, and the loss of core class enhancements entirely. But a loss of spell damage scaling with levels is entirely false.


    What the system needs is to regain it's foothold in the DC balance world, making different types of spellcasting viable in the hardest difficulties, besides just Shiradi spam. There are also other specific balance issues to address, such as Electric not having any really viable high MCL spells available to them.

  10. #10
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    494

    Default

    They can’t remove all caster level caps, but is needed other solution for epic levels. The pnp system is designed for the 1-20 lv play. If turbine wants to expand the game to lv 28 they need a epic spell system that works.

    DC issue is other different thing.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  11. #11
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Newport Beach, Ca
    Posts
    1,801

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure shiradis spamming MMs 24/7 would be very happy...
    Spells that fire additional missiles every certain number of caster levels can still have a cap on the number of missiles. As i said, a few spells would require their damage dice be ADJUSTED.


    Didnt bother quoting the longer post below yours to state them same thing. Please read OP more thoroughly.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Personally, I think the DC issue is of much more importance and impact than MCL. For instance, removing MCL from Magic Missle makes it an absolutely ungodly beast of a spell (how many missles at CL 28?); while Lightning Bolt would also get a large boost, that boost would be halved/nullified on a successful save/evade vs the existing DC; and uncapping MCL does little to nothing for CC/Finger/etc. That's why I feel a blanket uncapping would be inappropriate.

    That said, I'm not at all a-posed to MCL modifications, for instance I think the idea of basing them off (Heroic/Epic) total level is spot-on. I just don't think it's the be-all end-all solution, or in it's self an adequate to fix the larger problem.

    As far as "should've been implemented with MotU but wasn't," so won't be in the future the same could (and has) been said about Epic TR; yet here they are proposing it's introduction, and with a proposal that would've made much more sense back at MotU. So the fact that they should've done it already doesn't mean they won't.
    DC casting is already dead if you are not twinked to the max and want/have sp pots to jugg and even then you are average.
    Nuking is also on the way to extinction, because not only saves increase but hp to.
    Its already ridicules when you look at a Rat in a lvl20 quest and it has more hp then the Tarrasqe.

    Melee/ranged get more and more power with each update thanks to better weapons and their % scaling ED attacks.
    Caster get MCL increase that does nothing because the spell hardcaps and Caster ED are a joke (and not even a funny one, its more like one of those jokes about mental sick that makes you cry because its so disturbing..)

    At the very least each Epic lvl should increase DC and CL cap of the spells by 2.
    Taenebrae, Daemonsoul, Daemoneyes and Daemonheart of Argonessen
    Glitzakram - Trade Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload