The nice bonus to this mechanic is that it's much easier psychologically to "break" a 5-streak down to 4 than it is to erase a 100-streak down to 0.
The nice bonus to this mechanic is that it's much easier psychologically to "break" a 5-streak down to 4 than it is to erase a 100-streak down to 0.
I am not one to post much on the forums, but here goes my take on the whole Bravery Bonus system.
I personally like it. I am a TR/power gamer type player and I enjoy getting that first time bonus for doing things on the hardest difficulty at level. I mean, I grind gear, have decent builds (not always the most self sufficient but I do what I can) and a reasonable amount of skill. I enjoy playing in groups with other similarly equipped/skilled players. I put in the time to be able to do elite content. Most new players have not.
BB (Elite streaking) is not the most new player friendly thing out there. They generally don't have gear, bank roll or skills to do these quests on the hardest difficulty. I run PUGs on a pretty regular basis. I throw up an LFM (Elite for BB) and see what comes my way. For F2P content I get all kinds of poorly built, undergeared toons that click on the LFM. Sometimes these players are just in need of some info about what to do, how to get the gear they need or other general questions about the game. I'll help them out as much as I can. Other times .... "Its P2P someone buy me a pass" "Give me gear or plat I am new" or other such rude behavior. I kick them promptly and usually get some nasty tell calling me all kinds of names. I reply is usually go check out Wiki/Forums/Google and learn like I did.
I like most new players...we were all new once. I had vets mentor me and I try my best to help newer players. I find it refreshing when someone asks "how do we do this quest". I want to help grow the game but needing sooo much XP to level a TR makes it difficult for me give back to new players other than dragging them through quests on a difficulty that is frustrating for them when they are not ready for it.
I'll look at the other LFMs and not see a whole lot in the level range that are running normal/hard. I imagine its because most new players are afraid to run the quest or have things go wrong on them. God only knows.
What to do about it I am not sure...but I fear for the growth of the game because of it.
/my two coppers
The Bravery Streak does keep players from running something that they would not otherwise run. It does not make them run things only at the highest level possible for the quest. It does encourage them to run something else rather than join a bunch of friends doing a Hard or Normal farm of something that they have not already done Elite for. I am not convinced that this has any real impact on PUGing, as I am skeptical that there are many of these types of players who would turn to the LFM panel for groups, as opposed to finding something in-channel or soloing.
Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-27-2013 at 06:55 AM.
Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue
If you can't get a group together for a quest within a 2-level range of the quest, with a party or group capable of handling (or in many cases, low-manning) it on elite, you won't be doing that quest at all. The BB system enormously dissuades people from joining a group under any other circumstances.
"Well, if you can't solo it/get a good group capable of finishing it, just run it on hard now and come back and do elite later" isn't an option in the BB system. If you do go the route of soloing it now on hard, you'll wind up just going back to solo it on elite later for favor, as no group is going to run it overlevel other than for loot raid runs.
You saying you personally don't care or mind how it restricts the grouping is not an argument that it is not, in fact, constricting the grouping.
Now figure out a way to make BB require a the LFM to have a minimum level range of 2 over and 2 under for a total of 5 level range...
Then they can start working on all the other anti-grouping friction, like quest/giver location meta knowledge and obtuse hard flagging requirements.
Inoukchuk asked what my solution to "the problem" would be. I've thought about this off and on since the (potential) issue was first brought up, long before this thread started. There have been two problems put forward in this thread, dispite the OPs' attempt to sandwich them:
•The Bravery Bonous Streak has a negative effect on pugging.
I've yet to see anything put forward to really show this. Yes, it's restrictive by requiring a 3 level spread (not just 2!), but as the old standard was a 4 level spread, that's not a big difference. Yes, it encourages running Elite your first time in a quest, as that gives the biggest bonous. So instead of seeing 2 or 3 lfms for the same quest at multiple difficulties, you see lfms for multiple quests at one difficulty; I believe this at worst is a break even as you still have multiple lfms in either case.
If BB needs to be changed, the best suggestion I've seen put forward is in two parts: cap the streak at 5, so there's no psycological issue about ruining that infinitely building number that rolls over from life to life - no sense of loss of accomplishment; and when running lower difficulty content, decrement the streak instead of all together resetting it. I honestly think that last part may do just as much harm as good, as we would likely see a return to having competing lfms posted for the same quest at different difficulties - not sure I would call that an "improvement."
•Pugging is down and needs to be improved.
This is the real heart & soul of the issue. There are simply too many separate factors involved, most of which are unfixable.
•While you can't change someone's preferance for soloing, scaling could (and IMO should) be abolished for making it easier. N/H/E was all the scaling this game needed. The scaling mechanic as introduced by Turbine that makes quests more difficult in parties was pure foolishness. However while altering this may cause those who only solo for the ease of it to join groups, there's no way to tell how many will actually start pugging over joining guild/channel groups.
•Too many players (IMO) restrict their adventures to guild/channel only questing. While this admittedly falls under the heading of "pet peeve" for me, I really can't say there's anything wrong with it beyond removing more people from the pug population. (For clarification, it's not the people who "prefer to run with friends" that annoy me, it's the "omg I can't stand dealing with noobs!" so I'll hide in guild & channel crowd.)
•We just simply need more people playing DDO. I may not have any proof to offer that the population is shrinking, but neither does anyone have proof that is not shrinking. The games *ahem* management & decision makers have made some (many) choices that I can only best describe as questionable. I've lost many a running mate do to these decisions, and seen less coming in to replace them.
So as to how the above issues could be addressed, the long and short of it is that Turbine has shown their hand, and those issues aren't going to be addressed. For better or worse, they've chose what direction they want to take the game in. They cater to soloists (even redesigning some quests to be more soloable), they'd don't care how people form groups, only if they're shopping while they do it.
In all truth, these little (lol 14 page "little") debates we get into are exercises futility, arguing with eachother over things we have no controll over. What changes, if any that could be made to BB/Streaking is at best an academic effort on our part, as Turbine is likely not going to do Jack Squat one way or the other.
Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-27-2013 at 03:22 PM.
Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow
I totally agree if the Streak # went only to 5 people would not have as strong an emotional attachment.
What I think is truly funny about the Elite Streak High numbers is that unless you share a screen shot no one else knows how many Quests you ran for the First time on Elite. I would actually go so far as presume that no one really cares how many quests you did Elite the First Time.
Now don't get me wrong, the +40% First Time bonus over Hard, +10% bonus Bravery over Hard and the +25% bonus of having 5 Elites in a row are nice and is +75% of the BASE more than Hard.
However, standing still doing nothing (unless you are piking) will earn you Zero XP. The other realization that needs to be made deals with speed of earning that XP. If you can run a Quest at a lower difficulty multiple times in the same time it would take you to do it at a higher difficulty and those multiple runs net a higher XP amount which way would be better to run the quest? That would depend entirely on a players style XP/MIN or some other criteria.
Then there's also LFM's that wont BREAK my streak but wont give a bonus either (someone 3 levels over base is in the group)... I also avoided many of these in the last year as well.
Not any more, as the pug scene is dieing so fast after prime time that being slightly picky means there's nothing to do but go solo IP and maybe one other person joins you...
Now lets also talk about how many times a night I see LFM's that wont take me because I'm one under level, yes "at level" is a rarer exclusion but that also does happen, usually only for stuff like "In the Flesh" that is prone to wiping at the end (love that chain). But it's a nightly occurrence for me to see LFM's I qualify for (one under level) but the star has put at level or 2 higher as their range. Occasionally a polite tell will get me in. Usually I am ignored unless I tell them I'm a healer, which I rarely bother to do (I'm not going to beg and the fact that they are afraid enough of taking a 15 into a 16th level quest is a fair sign that I don't want to be there myself)
I think a lot of increased solo'ing is a result of decreased groups to join... just my theory, and against the conventional wizdom in these threads for sure, but there it is.
Look a Wayfinder, there's nothing to do there, so no one wants to go there, and no one wants new players directed to there. That is a vicious cylce in a nutshell, enforcing the emptiness of a server. The exact same principle apllies to the LFM system... the more dead it feels the less people stick around.
Widening level ranges, making BB more LFM friendly, making the LFM UI better, removing the pre-knowledge requirements (teleport to quest, auto share) while they wont add players to the game (though they might help keep some) would smooth the LFM "friction" out and make for more LFM's in every level range (obviously if you make every 10-12 range quest a 9-12 you're including a bunch of 9's that might have been looking at an empty LFM range... More highlighted LFM's in your range = more feeling of a lively game = less motivation to go somewhere else.
'Cause I love BB, I love that "farming NNNNHHHHHE" is no longer ubiquitous, and I love the challenge that comes with almost always doing the hardest difficulty first time.
The ONLY thing I personally don't like is the narrowing of LFM level ranges it brought with it.
BTW I am not concerned with lack of LFM's for normal and hard personally so maybe ask someone else. I think the detrimental effect it has simply from a frictional standpoint is the main issue with it. Of course going max 5 and "breaking streak" only subtracting -1 would do a lot to relax the hesitancy to join normal and hard runs as well..
Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-27-2013 at 08:20 PM.
The power-leveling penalty hard caps the level range to 4, btw. A 10-14 level range for ataraxia quests gives a powerleveling penalty to the 10s if a 14 joins, so the level range always was 4: 10-13. So the discussion is really just between 3 levels or 4 levels.
Fair enough. That's the core issue of the posters in this thread who want BB changed.BTW I am not concerned with lack of LFM's for normal and hard personally so maybe ask someone else. I think the detrimental effect it has simply from a frictional standpoint is the main issue with it. Of course going max 5 and "breaking streak" only subtracting -1 would do a lot to relax the hesitancy to join normal and hard runs as well..
Last edited by EllisDee37; 06-27-2013 at 09:38 PM.
Trying to fix grouping problems by tampering with BB is like worrying about a sliver in your finger when you have spikes in your hands. There is still no supporting evidence that BB hinders grouping. As previous posters have pointed out, power-leveling penalties and player choice are responsible for narrow level ranges in groups, not BB.
It is inaccurate to name BB as the cause of your discontent with LFM's and grouping. Social issues and possibly a decreased player base combine to be most responsible for the grouping system to be less than it could be. Players in DDO are playing a game, participating in a story, or some combination of both. Most people that play games want to win, and they want to win fast. Those that "live" the story tend to take more time, and they are usually more immersed in the content. Both types engage in social interactions to varying degrees, as suits the personality of each player.
DDO is playable by a wide range of player types. If this means it isn't perfect for some, most, or even all, so what? It provides a variety of quest types and character build options, and this is a strong attraction for the diversity of players that log in to play.
Leave BB alone as it is. Changing or removing it won't help grouping in any significant fashion, and it may well harm the game by driving players away. Or it may not. Cost/benefit analysis says it's not worth the time, expense, or risk.
Je ne suis pas
DDO Alpha Tester
Grouping is already 'difficult' in DDO, for all of the reasons that are probably in your head but not stated in your post-- DDO is a declining game, lower pouplation size, etc. etc. Yes. No one's denied that.
That's why attaching a very large xp bonus potential to a system that effectually requires that you only fill the group from people available in a 2-level window is bad. When everyone demands elite BB because of the very large xp bonus involved, it limits the people you'll be able to find for any group to only one difficulty (the hardest one) and with a smaller window of people available online to fill it with in order to preserve the streak bonus for that quest.
If you cut down what you can look for as far as who's online from 4 people of x class/role in a 3 level range of the quest to 1 person in a 2-level range of the quest, and that person doesn't want to join... your choices are don't do the quest or hope everyone in the group is capable of running it without an important role for the quest in question. Saying "well you could go downwards and take level 11 people into a CR 14 elite quest" isn't a worthy solution as you're essentially just gambling as to whether that person will be capable of being more of a help or a hindrance in successfully completing the quest. Dead dps isn't doing damage and dead healers aren't healing and dead trappers aren't trapping.
In this regard, the large xp bonus involved in getting a streak bonus off each quest done restricts grouping down to a narrow window that ensures streak bonus for everyone, while at the same time of course everyone will have the unspoken expectation that the group should be able to complete the quest successfully. So you need a group that is capable of finishing (which for some quests on elite will mean certain roles and a certain number of players minimum for reasonable expectations of not wiping) but you need them from a narrower window of levels in a game that we could all agree is already pretty hard-up for large numbers of players willing to group. In that sense it makes grouping more challenging.
Stepping back from that and saying "of absolutely all the reasons out there that grouping is tough in this game, BB is not the one causing all of those" is either misunderstanding the issue or sidestepping it.
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