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  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    someone suggested in this thread, i believe, that we could keep the streak but if we decided to drop down to run a quest on hard we wouldn't lose the elite streak but the number would be deducted. its not hard to build up a huge number so i would suggest deducting maybe 5 or 10. if the number drops down to 0, you lose the elite streak and would have to run 3 straight quests on elite to get it back. dropping down to normal on an elite streak would break it. a hard streak dropping down to normal would be the same as dropping from elite to hard.
    The idea of decrementing instead of erasing streaks really only works if the streaks themselves are capped at 5. So after running 100 elites for bravery, you have a 5 streak for both hard and elite. Run the next quest hard and you have a 5 hard 4 elite streak. Run the next one normal and now you have 4 hard 3 elite.

    The nice bonus to this mechanic is that it's much easier psychologically to "break" a 5-streak down to 4 than it is to erase a 100-streak down to 0.

  2. #262
    Community Member Semmemon22's Avatar
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    I am not one to post much on the forums, but here goes my take on the whole Bravery Bonus system.

    I personally like it. I am a TR/power gamer type player and I enjoy getting that first time bonus for doing things on the hardest difficulty at level. I mean, I grind gear, have decent builds (not always the most self sufficient but I do what I can) and a reasonable amount of skill. I enjoy playing in groups with other similarly equipped/skilled players. I put in the time to be able to do elite content. Most new players have not.

    BB (Elite streaking) is not the most new player friendly thing out there. They generally don't have gear, bank roll or skills to do these quests on the hardest difficulty. I run PUGs on a pretty regular basis. I throw up an LFM (Elite for BB) and see what comes my way. For F2P content I get all kinds of poorly built, undergeared toons that click on the LFM. Sometimes these players are just in need of some info about what to do, how to get the gear they need or other general questions about the game. I'll help them out as much as I can. Other times .... "Its P2P someone buy me a pass" "Give me gear or plat I am new" or other such rude behavior. I kick them promptly and usually get some nasty tell calling me all kinds of names. I reply is usually go check out Wiki/Forums/Google and learn like I did.

    I like most new players...we were all new once. I had vets mentor me and I try my best to help newer players. I find it refreshing when someone asks "how do we do this quest". I want to help grow the game but needing sooo much XP to level a TR makes it difficult for me give back to new players other than dragging them through quests on a difficulty that is frustrating for them when they are not ready for it.

    I'll look at the other LFMs and not see a whole lot in the level range that are running normal/hard. I imagine its because most new players are afraid to run the quest or have things go wrong on them. God only knows.

    What to do about it I am not sure...but I fear for the growth of the game because of it.

    /my two coppers

  3. #263
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Definitely not my first rodeo...think I'm on the 6th life on my current toon and 4th life on my other. Also have one other toon that has 3+ lives (don't remember which he's on).

    It used to be that you had to be VERY strict. Now though there's more content, challenges, more slayers, and most importantly more ways to get higher xp from what you do run (including BB). I normally run 20% pots from medium shards when I'm working on good quests and 5% cannith pots when I'm not. Last life I was a lot more loose with being willing to run a vale elite at 16 or 17 if I saw a good LFM up for it. Litany I actually did run at 15 first elite run. Monastery I don't think I ran until epic levels.

    The key thing for me was to keep the BB going. I did Running with the Devils very early on because I doubted I could solo Elite. Doing it early like that when the LFM presented the opportunity allowed me to run it whenever I felt like it on Normal with no penalty since I didn't wait until level 18 to run it the first time. I actually did a lot of slayers last life as well...not so much farming for kill count as much as hitting every single slayer and finding every single explorer point. There's a lot of xp to be had just from that.

    I think part of the problem isn't so much Bravery Bonus as the ideas put out there that there's only one way to get to cap and it's to have a 0 level spread between the entire group. That's nothing that Turbine's done...that's the fault of conventional wisdom saying that if you don't save all vale quests for level 18 holding 19 that you're doomed. That might have been the case at one point in time but it's not really as critical as it used to be.

    What I will say is critical given the attitudes of people involved is NOT taking levels until you absolutely need to take them. Taking levels reduces your grouping options because groups will almost always take you if you're under level...they'll never take you if you cost them their bravery bonus by being over level. So while I'm not strict with when I do my quests I'm very strict about holding my levels just to ensure I have the widest range of grouping options possible.
    Running vale at 17 if you are banking xp is fine, not many lvl 15 quests worth running...I agree it's way easier now than before BB to cap a legend, but not having a lvling plan for high levels might result in taking a lot of time to cap...doing slayers is not what i consider a efficient way to lvl up...
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    I have not seen a single person recommend dumping BB on this thread or nerfing the XP it gives or discouraging vets from using it as a path to shorten TR. Nobody.
    o.O Then apparently you should read the thread, including the Original Post.


    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The first part in bold suggests that those seeking to run a smaller varity of quests on N/H difficulties are in the vast minority, and I agree this is likely the case. The second part in bold is suggesting the the BBStreak mechanic is largely responsible for the declining lfm/pug population; as though guild & channel grouping, soloing and (what I believe to be a) declining player population in general are cumulatively only minor contributors to the problem. Are you seriously suggesting that changing the BB mechanic (while retaining it's xp benefits) will single handedly have a vast impact on improving the pug scene, while leaving the other factors (all those who simply aren't pugging) as they are?
    This really is the crux of the issue. As I mentioned before, most of the 'problems' with the LFM system that people have observed and assigned blame to Bravery Bonus for did not start to crop up at the same time as Bravery Bonus was added to the game. These problems did not really start until a few months later, when a lot of information about Update 14 (MotU) was becoming available. The DDO community made a shift at that point, and that is when the Public Grouping scene really started to start to dry up.

    The Bravery Streak does keep players from running something that they would not otherwise run. It does not make them run things only at the highest level possible for the quest. It does encourage them to run something else rather than join a bunch of friends doing a Hard or Normal farm of something that they have not already done Elite for. I am not convinced that this has any real impact on PUGing, as I am skeptical that there are many of these types of players who would turn to the LFM panel for groups, as opposed to finding something in-channel or soloing.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-27-2013 at 06:55 AM.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    Running vale at 17 if you are banking xp is fine, not many lvl 15 quests worth running...I agree it's way easier now than before BB to cap a legend, but not having a lvling plan for high levels might result in taking a lot of time to cap...doing slayers is not what i consider a efficient way to lvl up...
    Honestly throwing in an hour of slayers to pick up all of the explorer points is a nice way to break off the monotony. Sure, it may not be the most efficient but when you're not running store-bought pots you don't worry quite as much about maximum efficiency.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    To the final big point. "So What". What harm is the bravery bonus causing? Groups are there, you just don't like the difficulty level. That is as personal a choice as what quest you run, what class you play and what guilds you hang with.
    I'll repeat it, since you ask this question repeatedly as though I haven't answered it a half dozen times already. But I will expect you to bother to read it.

    If you can't get a group together for a quest within a 2-level range of the quest, with a party or group capable of handling (or in many cases, low-manning) it on elite, you won't be doing that quest at all. The BB system enormously dissuades people from joining a group under any other circumstances.

    "Well, if you can't solo it/get a good group capable of finishing it, just run it on hard now and come back and do elite later" isn't an option in the BB system. If you do go the route of soloing it now on hard, you'll wind up just going back to solo it on elite later for favor, as no group is going to run it overlevel other than for loot raid runs.

    You saying you personally don't care or mind how it restricts the grouping is not an argument that it is not, in fact, constricting the grouping.

  7. #267
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The idea of decrementing instead of erasing streaks really only works if the streaks themselves are capped at 5. So after running 100 elites for bravery, you have a 5 streak for both hard and elite. Run the next quest hard and you have a 5 hard 4 elite streak. Run the next one normal and now you have 4 hard 3 elite.

    The nice bonus to this mechanic is that it's much easier psychologically to "break" a 5-streak down to 4 than it is to erase a 100-streak down to 0.
    it's a good idea at least it will lower the friction inherent in "I'm not joining that LFM it will break my streak".

    Now figure out a way to make BB require a the LFM to have a minimum level range of 2 over and 2 under for a total of 5 level range...

    Then they can start working on all the other anti-grouping friction, like quest/giver location meta knowledge and obtuse hard flagging requirements.

  8. #268
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    If you can't get a group together for a quest within a 2-level range of the quest, with a party or group capable of handling (or in many cases, low-manning) it on elite, you won't be doing that quest at all. The BB system enormously dissuades people from joining a group under any other circumstances.
    Again it's a 3 level range, not 2. I don't know what server you're on, on Thelanis I only rarely see an lfm limiting the range to 2 levels. BBStreak only dissuades people from running hard there first time in a quest (at level) if they absolutely have to have that extra 25% xp from the Elite Streak; dropping down to Hard drops your bonus (on the quests' base xp) from 50% to 25%, and it remains 25% for the next 3 quests as on the 4th & 5th the Elite bonus again becomes larger than the Hard one (assuming you went back to Elite Streaking). While that is a good chunk, it's not end of the world earth shatteringly huge.

    Inoukchuk asked what my solution to "the problem" would be. I've thought about this off and on since the (potential) issue was first brought up, long before this thread started. There have been two problems put forward in this thread, dispite the OPs' attempt to sandwich them:

    •The Bravery Bonous Streak has a negative effect on pugging.
    I've yet to see anything put forward to really show this. Yes, it's restrictive by requiring a 3 level spread (not just 2!), but as the old standard was a 4 level spread, that's not a big difference. Yes, it encourages running Elite your first time in a quest, as that gives the biggest bonous. So instead of seeing 2 or 3 lfms for the same quest at multiple difficulties, you see lfms for multiple quests at one difficulty; I believe this at worst is a break even as you still have multiple lfms in either case.

    If BB needs to be changed, the best suggestion I've seen put forward is in two parts: cap the streak at 5, so there's no psycological issue about ruining that infinitely building number that rolls over from life to life - no sense of loss of accomplishment; and when running lower difficulty content, decrement the streak instead of all together resetting it. I honestly think that last part may do just as much harm as good, as we would likely see a return to having competing lfms posted for the same quest at different difficulties - not sure I would call that an "improvement."

    •Pugging is down and needs to be improved.
    This is the real heart & soul of the issue. There are simply too many separate factors involved, most of which are unfixable.

    •While you can't change someone's preferance for soloing, scaling could (and IMO should) be abolished for making it easier. N/H/E was all the scaling this game needed. The scaling mechanic as introduced by Turbine that makes quests more difficult in parties was pure foolishness. However while altering this may cause those who only solo for the ease of it to join groups, there's no way to tell how many will actually start pugging over joining guild/channel groups.

    •Too many players (IMO) restrict their adventures to guild/channel only questing. While this admittedly falls under the heading of "pet peeve" for me, I really can't say there's anything wrong with it beyond removing more people from the pug population. (For clarification, it's not the people who "prefer to run with friends" that annoy me, it's the "omg I can't stand dealing with noobs!" so I'll hide in guild & channel crowd.)

    •We just simply need more people playing DDO. I may not have any proof to offer that the population is shrinking, but neither does anyone have proof that is not shrinking. The games *ahem* management & decision makers have made some (many) choices that I can only best describe as questionable. I've lost many a running mate do to these decisions, and seen less coming in to replace them.

    So as to how the above issues could be addressed, the long and short of it is that Turbine has shown their hand, and those issues aren't going to be addressed. For better or worse, they've chose what direction they want to take the game in. They cater to soloists (even redesigning some quests to be more soloable), they'd don't care how people form groups, only if they're shopping while they do it.

    In all truth, these little (lol 14 page "little") debates we get into are exercises futility, arguing with eachother over things we have no controll over. What changes, if any that could be made to BB/Streaking is at best an academic effort on our part, as Turbine is likely not going to do Jack Squat one way or the other.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-27-2013 at 03:22 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  9. #269
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I totally agree if the Streak # went only to 5 people would not have as strong an emotional attachment.

    What I think is truly funny about the Elite Streak High numbers is that unless you share a screen shot no one else knows how many Quests you ran for the First time on Elite. I would actually go so far as presume that no one really cares how many quests you did Elite the First Time.

    Now don't get me wrong, the +40% First Time bonus over Hard, +10% bonus Bravery over Hard and the +25% bonus of having 5 Elites in a row are nice and is +75% of the BASE more than Hard.

    However, standing still doing nothing (unless you are piking) will earn you Zero XP. The other realization that needs to be made deals with speed of earning that XP. If you can run a Quest at a lower difficulty multiple times in the same time it would take you to do it at a higher difficulty and those multiple runs net a higher XP amount which way would be better to run the quest? That would depend entirely on a players style XP/MIN or some other criteria.

  10. #270
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Again it's a 3 level range, not 2.
    Remember a 13 joining a level 10 quest (elite =12) used to be commonplace, in fact a 14 was common on elite... Not any more it used to be that quests were run in a much wider arc of levels below and above. TR's especially would milk the plentiful lower level quests by taking levels only when absolutely necessary. These days it is downright unheard of for a 13 to be in a 10th level quest, because this eliminates everyone elses BB bonus XP (but not their streak)

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    •The Bravery Bonous Streak has a negative effect on pugging.
    I've yet to see anything put forward to really show this. Yes, it's restrictive by requiring a 3 level spread (not just 2!), but as the old standard was a 4 level spread, that's not a big difference.
    So you've literally never seen an LFM you would have joined but for breaking your BB streak? OR breaking the groups BB streak? Or if BB isn't important to you, ones you've observed that WOULD break the streak of someone who cares about it? That's kind of amazing as I see groups like that often. Now I break my streak because having something to do with other players is more important to me than XP... but I didn't used to. I used to say to myself "well that's a shame too bad they aren't running it on Elite..."

    Then there's also LFM's that wont BREAK my streak but wont give a bonus either (someone 3 levels over base is in the group)... I also avoided many of these in the last year as well.

    Not any more, as the pug scene is dieing so fast after prime time that being slightly picky means there's nothing to do but go solo IP and maybe one other person joins you...

    Now lets also talk about how many times a night I see LFM's that wont take me because I'm one under level, yes "at level" is a rarer exclusion but that also does happen, usually only for stuff like "In the Flesh" that is prone to wiping at the end (love that chain). But it's a nightly occurrence for me to see LFM's I qualify for (one under level) but the star has put at level or 2 higher as their range. Occasionally a polite tell will get me in. Usually I am ignored unless I tell them I'm a healer, which I rarely bother to do (I'm not going to beg and the fact that they are afraid enough of taking a 15 into a 16th level quest is a fair sign that I don't want to be there myself)

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    •Pugging is down and needs to be improved.
    This is the real heart & soul of the issue. There are simply too many separate factors involved, most of which are unfixable.
    Unfixable?

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    •While you can't change someone's preferance for soloing
    Sure you can't "fix" nsomeones preference, but true solo'ers don't much matter to the pug scene, they weren't a part of it before and they wont be in the future. Personally I suspect a lot of solo'ers would prefer to group but I can't prove it. IMO a lot of the "the game just seems dead because everyone prefers to solo" is just counter intuitive to me. People who prefer to play alone play amazing single player RPG's, not clunky payment filled artificial barrier filled amusement park atmosphere MMO's.. Solo'ing in MMO's is usually all about players who only have a little time to commit, or who don't find a group right away and only have an hour, so they go IP and leave an LFM up for company, or personal challenge, and what have you.... there are many reasons people solo in MMO's but the most basic fundamental design element of MMO's is "massively multiplayer" and I suspect the majority of people are after at least some social interaction if not all the time, then a majority of the time.

    I think a lot of increased solo'ing is a result of decreased groups to join... just my theory, and against the conventional wizdom in these threads for sure, but there it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    •We just simply need more people playing DDO. I may not have any proof to offer that the population is shrinking, but neither does anyone have proof that is not shrinking.
    This is the crux all right, the LFM system has built in friction, to overcome it they need a critical mass of players, otherwise the game appears to not have anything to do, this appearance makes players look elsewhere... which makes the game even less populated and becomes a vicious cycle...

    Look a Wayfinder, there's nothing to do there, so no one wants to go there, and no one wants new players directed to there. That is a vicious cylce in a nutshell, enforcing the emptiness of a server. The exact same principle apllies to the LFM system... the more dead it feels the less people stick around.

    Widening level ranges, making BB more LFM friendly, making the LFM UI better, removing the pre-knowledge requirements (teleport to quest, auto share) while they wont add players to the game (though they might help keep some) would smooth the LFM "friction" out and make for more LFM's in every level range (obviously if you make every 10-12 range quest a 9-12 you're including a bunch of 9's that might have been looking at an empty LFM range... More highlighted LFM's in your range = more feeling of a lively game = less motivation to go somewhere else.

  11. #271
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post




    Now lets also talk about how many times a night I see LFM's that wont take me because I'm one under level, yes "at level" is a rarer exclusion but that also does happen, usually only for stuff like "In the Flesh" that is prone to wiping at the end (love that chain). But it's a nightly occurrence for me to see LFM's I qualify for (one under level) but the star has put at level or 2 higher as their range. Occasionally a polite tell will get me in. Usually I am ignored unless I tell them I'm a healer, which I rarely bother to do (I'm not going to beg and the fact that they are afraid enough of taking a 15 into a 16th level quest is a fair sign that I don't want to be there myself)
    I would deny your request to join too. Not because a 15 into a level 17 (talking about in the flesh) but because if you are trying to join underlevel you probably don't have a good grasp of the leveling and xp system. The xp is so poor at level 18-29 quests that it is a complete and utter noob trap to run things under level. Yeah you could get in, and yes a good player could contribute, but the chance that a good player would want to run it underlevel is very very close to zero. I consider any player trying to run underlevel to probably be just added scaling from lack of game knowledge. I would assume the same even if there was no bravery bonus because removing it would just make the high level heroic xp situation much much worse.

  12. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    So you've literally never seen an LFM you would have joined but for breaking your BB streak?
    People against the BB are arguing both sides of this issue. On the one hand, they argue that there are no LFMs for normal & hard because of BB, while on the other hand they argue that BB limits grouping because people won't join LFMs that would break their streak. Do those streak-breaking LFMs exist or not?

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    People against the BB are arguing both sides of this issue. On the one hand, they argue that there are no LFMs for normal & hard because of BB, while on the other hand they argue that BB limits grouping because people won't join LFMs that would break their streak. Do those streak-breaking LFMs exist or not?
    Furthermore, if I happen to chose to join a LFM that kept my BB rather than one that does not... I still joined a group, pugging is still happening. If I chose to post a LFM rather than join, the opportunity is still there for others.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I would deny your request to join too. Not because a 15 into a level 17 (talking about in the flesh) but because if you are trying to join underlevel you probably don't have a good grasp of the leveling and xp system. The xp is so poor at level 18-29 quests that it is a complete and utter noob trap to run things under level. Yeah you could get in, and yes a good player could contribute, but the chance that a good player would want to run it underlevel is very very close to zero. I consider any player trying to run underlevel to probably be just added scaling from lack of game knowledge. I would assume the same even if there was no bravery bonus because removing it would just make the high level heroic xp situation much much worse.
    Wow such a thing never occurred to me, I guess I am just not insecure enough in my own skills to worry about whether a 1 under level player who wants to join is "knowledgeable enough" or "just added scaling".

  15. #275
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    People against the BB are arguing both sides of this issue. On the one hand, they argue that there are no LFMs for normal & hard because of BB, while on the other hand they argue that BB limits grouping because people won't join LFMs that would break their streak. Do those streak-breaking LFMs exist or not?
    I've read 90% of this thread, do you mean "people against BB" aka: people who would like BB modified to be more conducive to grouping?

    'Cause I love BB, I love that "farming NNNNHHHHHE" is no longer ubiquitous, and I love the challenge that comes with almost always doing the hardest difficulty first time.

    The ONLY thing I personally don't like is the narrowing of LFM level ranges it brought with it.

    BTW I am not concerned with lack of LFM's for normal and hard personally so maybe ask someone else. I think the detrimental effect it has simply from a frictional standpoint is the main issue with it. Of course going max 5 and "breaking streak" only subtracting -1 would do a lot to relax the hesitancy to join normal and hard runs as well..
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-27-2013 at 08:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I've read 90% of this thread, do you mean "people against BB" aka: people who would like BB modified to be more conducive to grouping?

    'Cause I love BB, I love that "farming NNNNHHHHHE" is no longer ubiquitous, and I love the challenge that comes with almost always doing the hardest difficulty first time.

    The ONLY thing I personally don't like is the narrowing of LFM level ranges it brought with it.
    We're essentially of the same mind on BB except one aspect: I don't consider the 3-level range to be much of an issue, if at all. You would like to see it go back to the 4-level range of old. To me this is minor, but if you feel this is a large issue I can respect that.

    The power-leveling penalty hard caps the level range to 4, btw. A 10-14 level range for ataraxia quests gives a powerleveling penalty to the 10s if a 14 joins, so the level range always was 4: 10-13. So the discussion is really just between 3 levels or 4 levels.

    BTW I am not concerned with lack of LFM's for normal and hard personally so maybe ask someone else. I think the detrimental effect it has simply from a frictional standpoint is the main issue with it. Of course going max 5 and "breaking streak" only subtracting -1 would do a lot to relax the hesitancy to join normal and hard runs as well..
    Fair enough. That's the core issue of the posters in this thread who want BB changed.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Wow such a thing never occurred to me, I guess I am just not insecure enough in my own skills to worry about whether a 1 under level player who wants to join is "knowledgeable enough" or "just added scaling".
    Oh I complete just the same, I can complete most the quests with a full party of pikers at the entrance, but it means that mobs hit harder and have more hp and I have to slow down, that means worse xp/min and most the point of grouping is to get others that can increase xp/min and level faster. If you cause me to slow down that means I was better off without you.

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    Trying to fix grouping problems by tampering with BB is like worrying about a sliver in your finger when you have spikes in your hands. There is still no supporting evidence that BB hinders grouping. As previous posters have pointed out, power-leveling penalties and player choice are responsible for narrow level ranges in groups, not BB.

    It is inaccurate to name BB as the cause of your discontent with LFM's and grouping. Social issues and possibly a decreased player base combine to be most responsible for the grouping system to be less than it could be. Players in DDO are playing a game, participating in a story, or some combination of both. Most people that play games want to win, and they want to win fast. Those that "live" the story tend to take more time, and they are usually more immersed in the content. Both types engage in social interactions to varying degrees, as suits the personality of each player.

    DDO is playable by a wide range of player types. If this means it isn't perfect for some, most, or even all, so what? It provides a variety of quest types and character build options, and this is a strong attraction for the diversity of players that log in to play.

    Leave BB alone as it is. Changing or removing it won't help grouping in any significant fashion, and it may well harm the game by driving players away. Or it may not. Cost/benefit analysis says it's not worth the time, expense, or risk.
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  19. #279
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Wow such a thing never occurred to me, I guess I am just not insecure enough in my own skills to worry about whether a 1 under level player who wants to join is "knowledgeable enough" or "just added scaling".
    It has nothing to do with skills: it just makes no sense to bring pikers along unless they are friends, the increase Dungeon scaling slow you down.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  20. #280
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    Jul 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Trying to fix grouping problems by tampering with BB is like worrying about a sliver in your finger when you have spikes in your hands. There is still no supporting evidence that BB hinders grouping. As previous posters have pointed out, power-leveling penalties and player choice are responsible for narrow level ranges in groups, not BB.

    It is inaccurate to name BB as the cause of your discontent with LFM's and grouping.
    People are either not understanding the complaint correctly, or are misinterpreting it for the purposes of argument.

    Grouping is already 'difficult' in DDO, for all of the reasons that are probably in your head but not stated in your post-- DDO is a declining game, lower pouplation size, etc. etc. Yes. No one's denied that.

    That's why attaching a very large xp bonus potential to a system that effectually requires that you only fill the group from people available in a 2-level window is bad. When everyone demands elite BB because of the very large xp bonus involved, it limits the people you'll be able to find for any group to only one difficulty (the hardest one) and with a smaller window of people available online to fill it with in order to preserve the streak bonus for that quest.

    If you cut down what you can look for as far as who's online from 4 people of x class/role in a 3 level range of the quest to 1 person in a 2-level range of the quest, and that person doesn't want to join... your choices are don't do the quest or hope everyone in the group is capable of running it without an important role for the quest in question. Saying "well you could go downwards and take level 11 people into a CR 14 elite quest" isn't a worthy solution as you're essentially just gambling as to whether that person will be capable of being more of a help or a hindrance in successfully completing the quest. Dead dps isn't doing damage and dead healers aren't healing and dead trappers aren't trapping.

    In this regard, the large xp bonus involved in getting a streak bonus off each quest done restricts grouping down to a narrow window that ensures streak bonus for everyone, while at the same time of course everyone will have the unspoken expectation that the group should be able to complete the quest successfully. So you need a group that is capable of finishing (which for some quests on elite will mean certain roles and a certain number of players minimum for reasonable expectations of not wiping) but you need them from a narrower window of levels in a game that we could all agree is already pretty hard-up for large numbers of players willing to group. In that sense it makes grouping more challenging.

    Stepping back from that and saying "of absolutely all the reasons out there that grouping is tough in this game, BB is not the one causing all of those" is either misunderstanding the issue or sidestepping it.

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