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  1. #241
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Then adjust scaling to make soloing slightly harder (already been done once, needs to be done once more), and you have a formula for more grouping. People might actually seek out groups even if it means deviating from their selected path to advancement.
    Please forgive me for saying this but adjusting scaling to make soloing harder will bring in the same complaints as removing it and I personally would rather see it removed entirely.

  2. #242
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Again, I think removing streak removes a barrier to running content that you've already done/need to do later/don't want to do on that difficulty/etc. We can add the lost XP of streak back in easy enough while still removing the negative effects, and then also add some perks to encourage grouping (like the stacking +5% up to 25% bonus for extra members in group... and yes I know this can be abused, I'm okay with that). Then adjust scaling to make soloing slightly harder (already been done once, needs to be done once more), and you have a formula for more grouping. People might actually seek out groups even if it means deviating from their selected path to advancement.
    Trying to force people to group is bad: people that want to group already group, maybe they do not PuG, but you can't do anything to change that. Giving a bonus xp for people in party would just mean pugs would fill even slower (cause people would wait to be 6 before starting anything) and there would be an increase of dual boxed accounts to get advantage of the free xp.

    Until you can guarantee that all puggers are competent and not just a burden you won't see that many lfm. I usually pug, most of the time i got absolutely incompetent players that aren't even willing to listen to advices; sometimes if i'm lucky, i got a couple of other good players and once a year maybe i got 5 other good players. That's why people prefer to solo/shortman things or run with friends/guildies without using the lfm panel.
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    The narrowing of the range is more due to people not willing to run with lower level characters that may endanger completion or slow/hold back the group on elite.
    The standard level spread for an Elite lvl 10 (Base lvl 8) quest pre-BB was 8-11. BB narrowed this down to 8-10; no effect on the bottom end of the spectrum. Players do this to maximize xp. Even pre-BB, how often did you see a 7-10 or 6-9 lfm for an Elite 10 quest?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    The encouraged/forced increased content spreads out the already thin player base, thereby reducing viability of pugs because everyone needs to run something different than everyone else to maintain their streak. When you have 100 people running 10 quests groups form. When you have 100 people running 100 quests you get empty LFMs and people soloing. Having increased content does not offset the problem, it exacerbates it.
    Now you're just trying too hard. Those 100 people are presumably of the same level range, right? We currently in game have an approximate average of 10 quests for any given level. So we already have you're "100 people looking to run 10 quests" scenario. If 100 people are looking to run 100 different quests, there's not enough character level overlap to fill a single 6 man group for any quest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Not that I'm complaining about increased content, it's just that there is a downside to it that we must properly recognize.
    If DDO lives long enough, and expands content enough, I'll gladly address that; as it is, we aren't even close to that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Again, I think removing streak removes a barrier to running content that you've already done/need to do later/don't want to do on that difficulty/etc.
    Regardless of what you think, BB does nothing to prevent you from rerunning content "you've already done." If you "need to do I later" BB doesn't stop you from waiting. If you absolutely want to do it at level, but really don't want to do it Elite or break your Elite streak, you're looking at a rarely occurring and/or self imposed issue; not something that's going to be an issue for the player base at large.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    We can add the lost XP of streak back in easy enough while still removing the negative effects, and then also add some perks to encourage grouping (like the stacking +5% up to 25% bonus for extra members in group... and yes I know this can be abused, I'm okay with that). Then adjust scaling to make soloing slightly harder (already been done once, needs to be done once more), and you have a formula for more grouping. People might actually seek out groups even if it means deviating from their selected path to advancement.
    Grouping is not an issue in DDO. Pugging has become one. Even if you're ok with intentionally introducing a mechanic you know will be abused, most of us aren't. You're suggestion will do very little to improve pugging, as only the soloists seeking an xp boost that don't have/prefer guild & channel friends will turn to the pug scene. That's like trying to refill a jug by poring in a shot glass of liquid.

    In all of the above, you're only really valid point is that scaling needs to be adjusted away from making quests easier to complete solo, and harder to complete in a group.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-25-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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  4. #244
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    Please don't take away our candy just because we don't play the way you think we should. You would be better served finding other players who share your style of gaming. This is one of the benefits of guilds. Also, there are threads on this forum for matching players.

    We are just trying to have fun, and we have different ways to accomplish this.
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    (I always choose friends, but not without grimacing).
    I knew it! ;-)

  6. #246
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    I have trouble with the central premise the Op started with: Namely that legions of players are joining LFM's and then demanding to do elite.


    Or sneaking in ahead of the group on elite.


    I have never had this happen.


    I run elite, of course, for the streak, following that I repeat hard(s) and a normal (or 5 depending). I have TR'd quite a bit, and run PuG LFMs almost exclusively.

    Perhaps my little DDO circle just gets lucky and all these mystery ninja eliters never find me? Not sure.


    Cannith server, for the record. Maybe all the nice people that actually read LFMs live here.


    As for grouping, encouraging grouping, BYOH, pure healers and all the other fun stuff in here...


    I think DDO is a great case study in what happens if you try to please everyone, all the time. That date next to my name is correct, and I have played the game for the majority of that time. The poor devs have nerfed/buffed/modified/changed/retuned everything around here so many times since release that all I can see at this point is an enormous train wreck.


    *shrugs*


    Old game is...



    Old.
    Last edited by Seere; 06-26-2013 at 12:58 AM.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The standard level spread for an Elite lvl 10 (Base lvl 8) quest pre-BB was 8-11. BB narrowed this down to 8-10; no effect on the bottom end of the spectrum. Players do this to maximize xp. Even pre-BB, how often did you see a 7-10 or 6-9 lfm for an Elite 10 quest?

    Now you're just trying too hard. Those 100 people are presumably of the same level range, right? We currently in game have an approximate average of 10 quests for any given level. So we already have you're "100 people looking to run 10 quests" scenario. If 100 people are looking to run 100 different quests, there's not enough character level overlap to fill a single 6 man group for any quest.

    If DDO lives long enough, and expands content enough, I'll gladly address that; as it is, we aren't even close to that point.
    The #'s I chose were arbitrary and for example. The fact are 1) the pugging scene isn't huge due to multiple factors addressed in this thread (some of which may be addressable and others not) 2) the level range was reduced by the introduction of BB to generally being 2 levels 3) forcing or encouraging more content to be run you spread thinner the few people in a level range that are willing to pug which contributes to LFMs that don't fill. You see it every day in the LFM panel, don't pretend it's 100% because people have shifted to a mentality of "IP, BYOH"; it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Regardless of what you think, BB does nothing to prevent you from rerunning content "you've already done." If you "need to do I later" BB doesn't stop you from waiting. If you absolutely want to do it at level, but really don't want to do it Elite or break your Elite streak, you're looking at a rarely occurring and/or self imposed issue; not something that's going to be an issue for the player base at large.
    You're wrong. Streak discourages you from running any content that isn't on your specified path to advancement, in roughly the order specified. As mentioned by others re-runs are generally not done due to low incentive to run low XP content (anything that doesn't give you mad xp base or huge streak bonus). Clearly I'm not the only one with this motivation if your read the comments in this thread or have had any interaction with anyone TRing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Grouping is not an issue in DDO. Pugging has become one. Even if you're ok with intentionally introducing a mechanic you know will be abused, most of us aren't. You're suggestion will do very little to improve pugging, as only the soloists seeking an xp boost that don't have/prefer guild & channel friends will turn to the pug scene.
    You'd really be opposed to a mechanic that might be "abused" by dual boxing to get a 5% bonus xp? Or by getting idle guildies to join you for completion for a ~10% bonus? Really? I say you're being disingenuous for the purpose of argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    That's like trying to refill a jug by poring in a shot glass of liquid.
    Something you need to remember is that there is a domino effect caused by thresholds. The harder it is to get a pug group, the more people give up on finding them, and therefore the harder they again become to find. We seem to have crossed a threshold recently that caused a serious shift in the availability of pugs. Now, this may not directly affect me because I solo, guild, or channel run almost all the time unless I'm raiding, but indirectly it affects us all because the ghost town of the LFM board will undoubtedly make it harder to retain player base, both new players unable to find groups and disgruntled vets, and again, this can be a domino effect. I shot added to the jug can have far more effect than you think.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Both the lvl range of the group and the difficulty setting of a group though really are the choice of players and not the fault of the mechanic itself. The mechanic isn't really the problem it is the reaction to the mechanic. Why don't people put up lfms for e/h/n to get the bravery bonuses and the 1st run per difficulty? Before the bonuses it was common to put up lfms for n/h/e.
    When the mechanic itself compellingly incentivizes running quests once on elite, and deincentivizes repeating them compared to the advantage of first-timing something else on elite, and that is what virtually the entire playerbase is doing for the most part, yes, the mechanic itself and how it is set up is to blame when groups are more difficult to put together for any given quest, and getting any group for any quest on anything other than elite within a 2-level window is more difficult.

    I think the guy a few posts up very well summarized the true driving engine behind most of the laughably thickheaded refusal to acknowledge the problem: we like our candy and we don't want you to take it away. The trouble is, no one has proposed taking away candy, but simply reworking its shape, and no one has said said everyone "must play in a certain way." I'm not sure where that complaint is coming from. From where I'm standing there's currently only one way to group with any hope of getting a group, and that's to do it within the confines of what will preserve elite streak for everyone--- which means essentially two level window on elite. I'm dismissing the really lame retort of "well you could take lower levels" because as has already been pointed out this tends, on average, to decrease the chance of successful completion (in which case no one gets any xp) and will vary on a party by party and quest by quest basis, as finishing at level quests on elite with people under the quest base level will rely on having some heavy carriers in the party and the quest not being particularly tough.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by pHo3nix View Post
    I'm pretty sure you do not run vale quests on elite at lvl 15-16, monastery at 16-17, litany at 14-15, and so on Early lvls are easy peasy now with BB, you can run whatever you want and still lvl up quite fast..at around lvl 13-14 things are a bit different though

    I always consider no xp pots or free ones: if you are constantly running 50% or even 30% xp pots then clearly you can run whatever you want at any level, you are paying to lvl up and you will get your lvl, it doesn't matter what you do
    Definitely not my first rodeo...think I'm on the 6th life on my current toon and 4th life on my other. Also have one other toon that has 3+ lives (don't remember which he's on).

    It used to be that you had to be VERY strict. Now though there's more content, challenges, more slayers, and most importantly more ways to get higher xp from what you do run (including BB). I normally run 20% pots from medium shards when I'm working on good quests and 5% cannith pots when I'm not. Last life I was a lot more loose with being willing to run a vale elite at 16 or 17 if I saw a good LFM up for it. Litany I actually did run at 15 first elite run. Monastery I don't think I ran until epic levels.

    The key thing for me was to keep the BB going. I did Running with the Devils very early on because I doubted I could solo Elite. Doing it early like that when the LFM presented the opportunity allowed me to run it whenever I felt like it on Normal with no penalty since I didn't wait until level 18 to run it the first time. I actually did a lot of slayers last life as well...not so much farming for kill count as much as hitting every single slayer and finding every single explorer point. There's a lot of xp to be had just from that.

    I think part of the problem isn't so much Bravery Bonus as the ideas put out there that there's only one way to get to cap and it's to have a 0 level spread between the entire group. That's nothing that Turbine's done...that's the fault of conventional wisdom saying that if you don't save all vale quests for level 18 holding 19 that you're doomed. That might have been the case at one point in time but it's not really as critical as it used to be.

    What I will say is critical given the attitudes of people involved is NOT taking levels until you absolutely need to take them. Taking levels reduces your grouping options because groups will almost always take you if you're under level...they'll never take you if you cost them their bravery bonus by being over level. So while I'm not strict with when I do my quests I'm very strict about holding my levels just to ensure I have the widest range of grouping options possible.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I object to "Sit and wait".

    When I post something as in progress... I usually get at least 1-2 people joining pretty quick, no matter what difficulty.

    In progress also removes any drama about what difficulty to run.
    This is a big part of why I always start any quest I can solo after posting the LFM. Invariably you get someone that wants to run it on another difficulty. Being in the quest gets rid of that issue.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I think the guy a few posts up very well summarized the true driving engine behind most of the laughably thickheaded refusal to acknowledge the problem: we like our candy and we don't want you to take it away. The trouble is, no one has proposed taking away candy, but simply reworking its shape, and no one has said said everyone "must play in a certain way." I'm not sure where that complaint is coming from.
    Your new candy is about as popular as the new school lunches.

    Using the behavior of the players to justify a change cannot be anything other than an attempt to drive a different behavior. The problem is, I like running a variety of quests. I like grouping on Elite. I don't see any problem with that being the mainstream path. If I want to go back, I can solo normal/hard on almost any quest.

    I decided I wanted to do tempest spine yesterday. I about to level out of range and I wanted that faction. I threw up an LFM that said something like first 12 or so and go. Got an interesting group of people, a few uber vets and a few quite non-uber toons. One was a 186 hp rogue who was fresh back back from a several year break and didn't know what ship buffs were. Nice guy, was glad to have him along. The group explained ship buffs and we started the quest with a few LD players and steam rolled right through it. Elite isn't that hard.

    I joined a GH foundation farm later yesterday. It was a solid TR train where probably every player in the group could solo the quest on elite. My main contribution was to run around with my rune arm and blast boxes. Yeah, I killed stuff, I was even in the top 1 or 2 kills sometimes... but me going all out killing or not... probably made a 10-20 second difference in how long the quest took. Blasting boxes and doing traps on the other hand provided a constant 18% xp bonus. The group seemed quite happy to have a box killer. Even on Elite, If you are losing the fight with boxes then bravery bonus isn't the problem... (Barrels however... that is a different story!)

    The point of my stories is that "Normal", "Hard" and "Elite" are not in the DnD manual. They are not in most other MMOs. They are not an integral part to the game. If the game population is indeed shrinking, and the level range is expanding then herding heroic level players towards a single difficulty is not only NOT a bad thing... it is a wise plan.

    To the final big point. "So What". What harm is the bravery bonus causing? Groups are there, you just don't like the difficulty level. That is as personal a choice as what quest you run, what class you play and what guilds you hang with.
    Last edited by Ancient; 06-26-2013 at 12:13 PM.

  12. #252
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    When the mechanic itself compellingly incentivizes running quests once on elite, and deincentivizes repeating them compared to the advantage of first-timing something else on elite, and that is what virtually the entire playerbase is doing for the most part, yes, the mechanic itself and how it is set up is to blame when groups are more difficult to put together for any given quest, and getting any group for any quest on anything other than elite within a 2-level window is more difficult.

    I think the guy a few posts up very well summarized the true driving engine behind most of the laughably thickheaded refusal to acknowledge the problem: we like our candy and we don't want you to take it away. The trouble is, no one has proposed taking away candy, but simply reworking its shape, and no one has said said everyone "must play in a certain way." I'm not sure where that complaint is coming from. From where I'm standing there's currently only one way to group with any hope of getting a group, and that's to do it within the confines of what will preserve elite streak for everyone--- which means essentially two level window on elite. I'm dismissing the really lame retort of "well you could take lower levels" because as has already been pointed out this tends, on average, to decrease the chance of successful completion (in which case no one gets any xp) and will vary on a party by party and quest by quest basis, as finishing at level quests on elite with people under the quest base level will rely on having some heavy carriers in the party and the quest not being particularly tough.
    I agree with you. I don't however believe that any of this is new nor do I belive that there is a point to having further discussions over it. There will be no agreement between players and the issue has been put forth to the devs numerous times. Now is the time to wait and see what happens. Should nothing happen the issue is dead and not worth repeating.

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    If the game population is indeed shrinking, and the level range is expanding then herding heroic level players towards a single difficulty is not only NOT a bad thing... it is a wise plan.
    Great point.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Your new candy is about as popular as the new school lunches.

    Using the behavior of the players to justify a change cannot be anything other than an attempt to drive a different behavior. The problem is, I like running a variety of quests. I like grouping on Elite. I don't see any problem with that being the mainstream path. If I want to go back, I can solo normal/hard on almost any quest.
    ...
    The point of my stories is that "Normal", "Hard" and "Elite" are not in the DnD manual. They are not in most other MMOs. They are not an integral part to the game. If the game population is indeed shrinking, and the level range is expanding then herding heroic level players towards a single difficulty is not only NOT a bad thing... it is a wise plan.

    To the final big point. "So What". What harm is the bravery bonus causing? Groups are there, you just don't like the difficulty level. That is as personal a choice as what quest you run, what class you play and what guilds you hang with.
    I like grouping on elite too. I also like soloing, and short-manning elite with my friends. The problem is not that we don't like the difficulty. And the problem isn't the bravery bonus, it's the streak bonus. I know it modifies behavior since it even modifies my own behavior and I am less likely to do certain quests (any quest not on my chosen path) while leveling because of streak. I have not seen a single person recommend dumping BB on this thread or nerfing the XP it gives or discouraging vets from using it as a path to shorten TR. Nobody. What we want to ditch or modify is the streak portion. This part is easily adjustable without nerfing XP, or your play style, or "taking your candy" at all. In fact my suggestion would increase XP available at each level making getting through the miserable 18-20 portion much nicer and helping to remove the perception that you can't do any quest that isn't exactly 2 levels under you because then you won't have it for XP next level (or in 2 levels/whatever).

    The point the detractors in this thread are missing and therefor needs to be restated (again and again if needed):

    THIS SUGGESTION DOES NOT TO REMOVE OR NERF BB, OR TAKE YOUR CANDY!!! IT'S ONLY TO ADJUST TO MAKE PUGGING EASIER!!

    Even if it increases pug participation 5%, that's very significant.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    The #'s I chose were arbitrary and for example. The fact are 1) the pugging scene isn't huge due to multiple factors addressed in this thread (some of which may be addressable and others not) 2) the level range was reduced by the introduction of BB to generally being 2 levels 3) forcing or encouraging more content to be run you spread thinner the few people in a level range that are willing to pug which contributes to LFMs that don't fill. You see it every day in the LFM panel, don't pretend it's 100% because people have shifted to a mentality of "IP, BYOH"; it's not.
    Yes, you're numbers were obviously both arbitrary and unrealistic. 1) Glad we agree the pug scene is a shadow of what it once was and could/should be again. 2) The BB mechanic encourages a 3 level spread as shown here time & again. Any 2 level spread requirement is player enforced on a case by case basis, and I honestly only rarely see it posted for. 3) I have never claimed that either of "IP" or "BYOH" were responsible for the decline in pugs. If you think BB encouraging people to run content on an "Elite once and done" basis spreads the available puggers too thin, how much more so would multiplying the available options by 3? If there's currently ~10 quests available at a given level range, and all are posted for on Elite at the same time, you get 10 lfms. If you deincentivize Elite, and instead encourage all difficulties equally, you're now potentially looking at ~30 lfms (~10quests each N/H/E). Would that not spread the available puggers even thinner? It seems you would prefer a return to the old system of "only these few quests are worth doing, so only these few quests will be posted;" leaving lfms for unpopular quests unfilled because there's no incentive to do them. No thank you, I like variety in my questing diet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    You're wrong. Streak discourages you from running any content that isn't on your specified path to advancement, in roughly the order specified. As mentioned by others re-runs are generally not done due to low incentive to run low XP content (anything that doesn't give you mad xp base or huge streak bonus). Clearly I'm not the only one with this motivation if your read the comments in this thread or have had any interaction with anyone TRing.
    All I see here is an issue with self-imposed restrictions. What is this "specified path to advancement" with a "specified order?" Sure, I've seen the "How to level a 3rd life TR in 24 hours" do (X) quest (X) times on (X) difficulty "leveling guides" but if you're on this plan (or something similar) you're probably not pugging; and regardless, those rigid guides existed preBB and if BB went away, would continue to exist. Setting your self on a rigid path is not a BB/pugging related issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    You'd really be opposed to a mechanic that might be "abused" by dual boxing to get a 5% bonus xp? Or by getting idle guildies to join you for completion for a ~10% bonus? Really? I say you're being disingenuous for the purpose of argument.
    No, I'm saying I don't see how your idea will encourage or bolster pugging, except by enticing (what I believe to be) the small group of soloists (who would stop soloing and start grouping for increased xp) and do so by pugging instead of joining chanel/guild groups. So yes, your idea would encourage soloists to group, but necessarily pug; and pugging is what we're supposed to be trying to improve, is it not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Something you need to remember is that there is a domino effect caused by thresholds. The harder it is to get a pug group, the more people give up on finding them, and therefore the harder they again become to find. We seem to have crossed a threshold recently that caused a serious shift in the availability of pugs. Now, this may not directly affect me because I solo, guild, or channel run almost all the time unless I'm raiding, but indirectly it affects us all because the ghost town of the LFM board will undoubtedly make it harder to retain player base, both new players unable to find groups and disgruntled vets, and again, this can be a domino effect. I shot added to the jug can have far more effect than you think.
    Something you need to realize is that the threshold we have crossed is do to the combination of many factors. While BB shrinking the standard level range in an lfm from a spread of 4 down to 3 (not 2) may be a part of that, encouraging multiple quests at one difficulty instead of a few quests at multiple difficulties is at best a "wash" (roughly breaking even). Shrinking player base (do to many causes, of which BB is doubtfully one of them), scaling (making quests harder in a group), and a prevalence of players like you who predominantly guild/channel their groups for leveling are all (imo) individually larger contributors to reduced lfms/pugging than the big bad Bravery Streak Bonous.

    If you really wan to be helpful, try coming up with an idea that will improve pugging, perhaps by pulling people such as yourself out of their collectively isolated non-pugging habits, and back onto the lfm panel.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-26-2013 at 02:24 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    I like grouping on elite too. I also like soloing, and short-manning elite with my friends. The problem is not that we don't like the difficulty. And the problem isn't the bravery bonus, it's the streak bonus. I know it modifies behavior since it even modifies my own behavior and I am less likely to do certain quests (any quest not on my chosen path) while leveling because of streak. I have not seen a single person recommend dumping BB on this thread or nerfing the XP it gives or discouraging vets from using it as a path to shorten TR. Nobody. What we want to ditch or modify is the streak portion. This part is easily adjustable without nerfing XP, or your play style, or "taking your candy" at all. In fact my suggestion would increase XP available at each level making getting through the miserable 18-20 portion much nicer and helping to remove the perception that you can't do any quest that isn't exactly 2 levels under you because then you won't have it for XP next level (or in 2 levels/whatever).

    The point the detractors in this thread are missing and therefor needs to be restated (again and again if needed):

    THIS SUGGESTION DOES NOT TO REMOVE OR NERF BB, OR TAKE YOUR CANDY!!! IT'S ONLY TO ADJUST TO MAKE PUGGING EASIER!!

    Even if it increases pug participation 5%, that's very significant.
    The "I don't want to break my streak" mentality and the "I must hold levels & run content 2 levels under me" mentality separate issues. Are you really saying that if there were no streak to break, then suddenly no one would be concerned about "running out" of xp at the top end of heroic leveling? It's been shown repeatedly in these very forums that (thanks to BB w/streak bonous) you can literally go from 1-20 with out repeating any quest, once and done Elite all the way, only occasionally holding levels when you're finishing out the quest list in a given level range.

    Other people may have different reasons, personally I only hold levels because I don't particularly enjoy a lot of the quests available at the top end, in particular I.Q. & Amrath. Holding levels helps me avoid running content I don't enjoy. Any modification of the streak bonous (that retains it's xp benefit) will not change that.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    When the mechanic itself compellingly incentivizes running quests once on elite, and deincentivizes repeating them compared to the advantage of first-timing something else on elite, and that is what virtually the entire playerbase is doing for the most part, yes, the mechanic itself and how it is set up is to blame when groups are more difficult to put together for any given quest, and getting any group for any quest on anything other than elite within a 2-level window is more difficult.
    The first part in bold suggests that those seeking to run a smaller varity of quests on N/H difficulties are in the vast minority, and I agree this is likely the case. The second part in bold is suggesting the the BBStreak mechanic is largely responsible for the declining lfm/pug population; as though guild & channel grouping, soloing and (what I believe to be a) declining player population in general are cumulatively only minor contributors to the problem. Are you seriously suggesting that changing the BB mechanic (while retaining it's xp benefits) will single handedly have a vast impact on improving the pug scene, while leaving the other factors (all those who simply aren't pugging) as they are?
    As for your last point, that it's more difficult to form a group for a quest on a difficulty other than Elite and outside of (the 3 level spread) BB range, the first section in bold addresses that: most of the player base is running at level Elites. So yes, most of the player base using the system to it's best advantage is leaving those who wish to "go against the grain" on an island. Wanting to change what the majority is doing do suit the few is at best noble (if you're part of the majority) or incredibly selfish (if you're part of the minority).
    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I think the guy a few posts up very well summarized the true driving engine behind most of the laughably thickheaded refusal to acknowledge the problem: we like our candy and we don't want you to take it away. The trouble is, no one has proposed taking away candy, but simply reworking its shape, and no one has said said everyone "must play in a certain way." I'm not sure where that complaint is coming from. From where I'm standing there's currently only one way to group with any hope of getting a group, and that's to do it within the confines of what will preserve elite streak for everyone--- which means essentially two level window on elite. I'm dismissing the really lame retort of "well you could take lower levels" because as has already been pointed out this tends, on average, to decrease the chance of successful completion (in which case no one gets any xp) and will vary on a party by party and quest by quest basis, as finishing at level quests on elite with people under the quest base level will rely on having some heavy carriers in the party and the quest not being particularly tough.
    I've seen no suggestion from you at all in this thread regarding how to incentivize or improve pugging. I have however seen many complaints from you specifically, especially early on, that the system as it stands "fosters the byoh mentality, offers jerks more opportunities to be jerks, and encourages zerging evasionists." You also have tried to tie the BBstreak mechanic to a difficulty in finding healers to join your (stated preferance for) "balanced parties."

    Essentially, you've stated (repeatedly) that you think the game should be played a particular way, and you (largely) blame BB for encouraging people to play in a different manor, as though changing the BB/Streak mechanic will somehow get people to stop building self-sufficient toons, and fall back in line with your preferred "balanced party" everyone should have a spefic role (trinity) style of character building.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

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    To clarify & summarize my own position on the matter at hand, I am perfectly fine with any change to the BBStreak mechanic that preserves/retains it's xp benefits.

    However, unless such a change would actually encourage -or at least improve the existing- pug scene I see no point or purpose in doing so.

    Most if not all of the suggestions I've seen so far would at best do nothing to improve the ease of forming a group through lfm/pugging, and at worst simply offer an added benefit to those who already group through guild/channel or multi-box soloists.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-26-2013 at 03:43 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  19. #259
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    if there was a problem with BB in and of itself, it would be because of the streak. mostly, players don't want to break it and would still attempt quests too tough for them or the groups they join to keep their streak intact. ive done this myself on a couple quests. sometimes successful, sometimes not. because of that, some may not even attempt to run those quests due to the difficulty, say In The Flesh. ive seen groups good and bad drop after the chain was complete with only that one left.

    someone suggested in this thread, i believe, that we could keep the streak but if we decided to drop down to run a quest on hard we wouldn't lose the elite streak but the number would be deducted. its not hard to build up a huge number so i would suggest deducting maybe 5 or 10. if the number drops down to 0, you lose the elite streak and would have to run 3 straight quests on elite to get it back. dropping down to normal on an elite streak would break it. a hard streak dropping down to normal would be the same as dropping from elite to hard.

    i think this would help with grouping and it would help with players who aren't ready for elite challenge burdening groups who can handle the challenge. a group that cant handle a quest on elite would have the option without breaking streak to run it on hard instead of waiting for a long time hoping it would fill. if it did it could end up being a huge waste of time and resources if the group failed. i think this also would make grouping less limited.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Yes, you're numbers were obviously both arbitrary and unrealistic. 1) Glad we agree the pug scene is a shadow of what it once was and could/should be again. 2) The BB mechanic encourages a 3 level spread as shown here time & again. Any 2 level spread requirement is player enforced on a case by case basis, and I honestly only rarely see it posted for. 3) I have never claimed that either of "IP" or "BYOH" were responsible for the decline in pugs. If you think BB encouraging people to run content on an "Elite once and done" basis spreads the available puggers too thin, how much more so would multiplying the available options by 3? If there's currently ~10 quests available at a given level range, and all are posted for on Elite at the same time, you get 10 lfms. If you deincentivize Elite, and instead encourage all difficulties equally, you're now potentially looking at ~30 lfms (~10quests each N/H/E). Would that not spread the available puggers even thinner? It seems you would prefer a return to the old system of "only these few quests are worth doing, so only these few quests will be posted;" leaving lfms for unpopular quests unfilled because there's no incentive to do them. No thank you, I like variety in my questing diet.

    All I see here is an issue with self-imposed restrictions. What is this "specified path to advancement" with a "specified order?" Sure, I've seen the "How to level a 3rd life TR in 24 hours" do (X) quest (X) times on (X) difficulty "leveling guides" but if you're on this plan (or something similar) you're probably not pugging; and regardless, those rigid guides existed preBB and if BB went away, would continue to exist. Setting your self on a rigid path is not a BB/pugging related issue.

    No, I'm saying I don't see how your idea will encourage or bolster pugging, except by enticing (what I believe to be) the small group of soloists (who would stop soloing and start grouping for increased xp) and do so by pugging instead of joining chanel/guild groups. So yes, your idea would encourage soloists to group, but necessarily pug; and pugging is what we're supposed to be trying to improve, is it not?

    Something you need to realize is that the threshold we have crossed is do to the combination of many factors. While BB shrinking the standard level range in an lfm from a spread of 4 down to 3 (not 2) may be a part of that, encouraging multiple quests at one difficulty instead of a few quests at multiple difficulties is at best a "wash" (roughly breaking even). Shrinking player base (do to many causes, of which BB is doubtfully one of them), scaling (making quests harder in a group), and a prevalence of players like you who predominantly guild/channel their groups for leveling are all (imo) individually larger contributors to reduced lfms/pugging than the big bad Bravery Streak Bonous.

    If you really wan to be helpful, try coming up with an idea that will improve pugging, perhaps by pulling people such as yourself out of their collectively isolated non-pugging habits, and back onto the lfm panel.
    Actually, I agree with most of what you wrote above, we aren't all that far apart in our opinions. I agree there are many factors, I just don't see any immediate fixes for most of them, especially the one involving people running exclusively in channel/guild runs (which I also have no problems with).

    The part in bold... I did exactly that. My particular case is that I belong to a small guild of mostly casual players and not everyone can be on at the same times. I don't do 24 hour or 1 weekend TR's, I take the time to upgrade my gear, see how my build performs, do most of the quests (advancing when I cap). And the suggestion I put forward would absolutely get me to PUG more. Maybe I'm "Setting your self on a rigid path" or "self imposing restrictions" but I do so largely because the system encourages it, and I know I'm far from the only one, and the changes I proposed would encourage me to pug occasionally (or at least remove disincentives from doing so).

    Please note that the changes I proposed still heavily favor elite runs and diversity, but remove the feeling that you HAVE to do the one and done system that so many do. Also please note I didn't restrict my proposal to BB streak changes, having also included grouping bonuses and DS changes to help encourage pugging.

    Will this suddenly turn everything around and make everyone pug? No, of course not, but even a small improvement would be welcome by most I think. Is it going to cause people that channel group only to suddenly pug? Of course not. There is no solution (other than forcing random groups, which of course nobody would ever propose) that will fully or even largely fix this issue, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take any small, easy measures that could help even a little. If you don't like my suggestions then ... make some of your own, we'd all welcome them.
    Last edited by Inoukchuk; 06-26-2013 at 05:08 PM.

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