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  1. #161
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    Hmm, wonder what would happen if there were a party bonus based on the number of party members running the quest for the first time, a shared Bravery Bonus you would benefit from even if it weren't your first time through. Cap it at three or four members counted so you're not excluding too many people and fix the bonuses so it's an acceptable option.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Read more carefully. My response is fully appropriate to what I was responding to. As a refresher:
    That's an intentional twisting of my position into saying that all I want to do is solo things. I don't. I wouldn't be here discussing the negative effect BB streaks have on grouping if I did. It is your posiition, not mine, that not only can the game but also that the game SHOULD be played as a solo self sufficient affair.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Surely we can rationally separate that most people felt base xp was too low, especially under TR penalties, from saying that BB is a great system.

    There have been multiple proposals not just in this thread but since way before it suggesting changes to overall base xp acquisition, OR to ameliorating the TR xp penalties, or both ideas together. BB is not the only solution nor is it the best one. Still to this day even with BB there are plenty of quests few to no groups do, because frankly, many quests are too remote, too hard to group for, or simply not worth the xp for the time or effort required to go do them. This is discussed frequently.

    Acknowledging the game has some xp problems (particularly for TR's, though not exclusively) is separate from blind defending the BB system. Treating a discussion of the negative game impacts of the BB streak system for grouping as "the enemy" on the logic that "the BB system gives me more xp right now as the exclusive solution to xp problems in game" isn't productive.
    You have to understand that I've had this discussion before and also that the devs know what the irritant in the bravery bonus mechanic is already. There is no harm in making suggestions of course.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Though I do think that people who are viewing the issue exclusively and dismissively from the position that they don't care about anything but their own personal TR relevelling speed should consider that the downside of the BB streak system and its effect/constriction on grouping is hurting the rest of the game, particularly people who aren't on their 19th life, and even if pub grouping for quests is no longer part of their ordinary DDO experience. People who feel they are utterly not affected by a problem are not and should not be the authoritative voice on whether a problem needs any addressing.
    People who aren't on their 19th life and pug should not be the authoritative voice on the bravery bonus!!! See, it sounds just as silly both ways.

    As part of my Barbyoh project, I took a first life barb (on my second account) and leveled up on an elite bravery streak. I'm not VIP, so I was 100% at the mercy of pugs. Knowledge, skill and experience are by far the biggest differentiation, not gear or past lives. I'm far better than many players, no matter how we are geared... and there are players who are far far better than me, no matter how we are geared. I recently watched a new (one week playing DDO) who was an avid PVP player in many other games merrily bounce down a hall of traps with low saves and low hp and not take a single point of damage. I can't do that, but I don't want the game changed because of that. His skill should be rewarded, and I have to find my own solution.

    Rather than focus on nerfing BYOH groups or nerfing elite grouping... maybe find something to make normal runs (and/or balanced groups) more attractive? For example, extending the level range for hard, and even more for normal quests would facilitate those groups... yet I don't think it would result in power leveling simply because the min/max path is still to run on elite. I don't view that as a bravery bonus issue, but more as a leveling range issue.

    I do think there are level range issues, dungeon scaling issues, Barbs need some love issues. I don't see any issue with bravery bonus and I hope that the constant whining in the area doesn't result in unnecessary fixes.

  5. #165
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    I like BB as it is. It helps me level faster.

    Changing the system to something that would improve grouping would not bother me, as long as I don't take an XP loss in a changed system.
    "So maybe it's about time we all get a reality check and realize that if you raid, run epics, and have capped toons and worry about ED's TR's and all that jazz, you are a small part of the population of this game, a very small part in fact." -- Ungood

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    People who aren't on their 19th life and pug should not be the authoritative voice on the bravery bonus!!! See, it sounds just as silly both ways.

    As part of my Barbyoh project, I took a first life barb (on my second account) and leveled up on an elite bravery streak. I'm not VIP, so I was 100% at the mercy of pugs. Knowledge, skill and experience are by far the biggest differentiation, not gear or past lives. I'm far better than many players, no matter how we are geared... and there are players who are far far better than me, no matter how we are geared. I recently watched a new (one week playing DDO) who was an avid PVP player in many other games merrily bounce down a hall of traps with low saves and low hp and not take a single point of damage. I can't do that, but I don't want the game changed because of that. His skill should be rewarded, and I have to find my own solution.

    Rather than focus on nerfing BYOH groups or nerfing elite grouping... maybe find something to make normal runs (and/or balanced groups) more attractive? For example, extending the level range for hard, and even more for normal quests would facilitate those groups... yet I don't think it would result in power leveling simply because the min/max path is still to run on elite. I don't view that as a bravery bonus issue, but more as a leveling range issue.

    I do think there are level range issues, dungeon scaling issues, Barbs need some love issues. I don't see any issue with bravery bonus and I hope that the constant whining in the area doesn't result in unnecessary fixes.
    Within this one post you do what so many people defending the BB system (by default if not by open proclamation) do, which is that you point out the problem (no one has any incentive to group or run quests on anything but elite) and then turn right around and say "but I see no problem wtih the BB system and hope the whining doesn't result in fixes."

    Either it is constricting grouping (which is a problem in a group-constricted game) or it isn't. You don't get to acknowledge that it is and then say it's not a problem.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBot1234 View Post
    I like BB as it is. It helps me level faster.

    Changing the system to something that would improve grouping would not bother me, as long as I don't take an XP loss in a changed system.
    And that's a very rational reaction. What blows my mind is how many people seem to oppose even the prospect of an equivalent net xp system that would hurt grouping less and open up grouping to more than just 2 level window elite. The last time I tried to run Tempest Spine we had 10 people and the group by general consensus wanted to hold the last 2 slots for healerish types. On a /who search I saw that a grand total of 3 players were online within the 2-level range: 1 favored soul and 2 clerics. Two were busy crafting and not interested, the third didn't respond.

    In the old days? I would have said: Hey group, there aren't a lot of healers online, anyone care if we take one that's a level over? Usually there'd be no major issue with that as people would prefer to actually get the quest done, especially after waiting to do it for awhile, rather than not do it at all. 90% of 12k experience is better than 0% from not doing the quest at all. Right now in BB there'd be a very, very stark negative to doing so, it would blow huge xp for a lot of people in the group, and people would rather leave, not do the run at all, or risk wiping than lose their streak bonus.

    That's what I don't like about this system and what it does to people's willingness to group up.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Within this one post you do what so many people defending the BB system (by default if not by open proclamation) do, which is that you point out the problem (no one has any incentive to group or run quests on anything but elite) and then turn right around and say "but I see no problem wtih the BB system and hope the whining doesn't result in fixes."

    Either it is constricting grouping (which is a problem in a group-constricted game) or it isn't. You don't get to acknowledge that it is and then say it's not a problem.
    Yeah... I do. In fact, I'll say it again:

    Problems with dungeon scaling, level group limitations or barbarians do not equate to a problem with bravery bonus.

    And I hope that constantly repeating a flawed position that it does fails to force change.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Yeah... I do. In fact, I'll say it again:

    Problems with dungeon scaling, level group limitations or barbarians do not equate to a problem with bravery bonus.

    And I hope that constantly repeating a flawed position that it does fails to force change.
    The bravery bonus has intensified the level group limitations because the level group limitations are build directly into whether or not anyone will get their bravery bonus, and the loss involved from breaking the streak is far, far greater than the loss you would have taken before BB existed if your group took someone a level over or whatever.

    So yes, either re-examine how the streak system and BB works, or make a response that makes sense. Your position doesn't.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    And that's a very rational reaction. What blows my mind is how many people seem to oppose even the prospect of an equivalent net xp system that would hurt grouping less and open up grouping to more than just 2 level window elite. The last time I tried to run Tempest Spine we had 10 people and the group by general consensus wanted to hold the last 2 slots for healerish types. On a /who search I saw that a grand total of 3 players were online within the 2-level range: 1 favored soul and 2 clerics. Two were busy crafting and not interested, the third didn't respond.

    In the old days? I would have said: Hey group, there aren't a lot of healers online, anyone care if we take one that's a level over? Usually there'd be no major issue with that as people would prefer to actually get the quest done, especially after waiting to do it for awhile, rather than not do it at all. 90% of 12k experience is better than 0% from not doing the quest at all. Right now in BB there'd be a very, very stark negative to doing so, it would blow huge xp for a lot of people in the group, and people would rather leave, not do the run at all, or risk wiping than lose their streak bonus.

    That's what I don't like about this system and what it does to people's willingness to group up.
    1. You have 10 players and cannot do the quest... that was your first problem.
    2. The chance at a large bonus also attracts people to those elite completions... your one example is off set by the one example where someone logs in a healer just to get that sweet bonus... we can go back and forth with examples all day long... its a horrible way to try to reach a general conclusion.
    3. You repeatedly try to win the other side over by insulting them... if your goal is to get change, that is a poor strategy.

    While your story may sound like a convincing example to you, to me it sounds like a group of 10 people who want the best xp/prize/toy, but aren't capable of earning it themselves. Faced with this harsh reality, their answer is not to address their short coming, or to log their healer... it is to demand the system be changed to nerf those who were capable of completing such a task.

    Your story is even more hurt by the fact that taking a higher level healer doesn't break the streak... it just means they don't get the reward for that run. That group was free to break up, reform with the higher level healer and run with those willing to accept the loss of bonus for that run.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    The bravery bonus has intensified the level group limitations because the level group limitations are build directly into whether or not anyone will get their bravery bonus, and the loss involved from breaking the streak is far, far greater than the loss you would have taken before BB existed if your group took someone a level over or whatever.

    So yes, either re-examine how the streak system and BB works, or make a response that makes sense. Your position doesn't.
    If that is your position, then this is simply an education issue.

    Taking someone over level doesn't break your streak. It just means you do not get the "bonus" on that quest.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    1. You have 10 players and cannot do the quest... that was your first problem.
    2. The chance at a large bonus also attracts people to those elite completions... your one example is off set by the one example where someone logs in a healer just to get that sweet bonus... we can go back and forth with examples all day long... its a horrible way to try to reach a general conclusion.
    3. You repeatedly try to win the other side over by insulting them... if your goal is to get change, that is a poor strategy.

    While your story may sound like a convincing example to you, to me it sounds like a group of 10 people who want the best xp/prize/toy, but aren't capable of earning it themselves. Faced with this harsh reality, their answer is not to address their short coming, or to log their healer... it is to demand the system be changed to nerf those who were capable of completing such a task.

    Your story is even more hurt by the fact that taking a higher level healer doesn't break the streak... it just means they don't get the reward for that run. That group was free to break up, reform with the higher level healer and run with those willing to accept the loss of bonus for that run.
    Rah rah rah, vets with good gear would have run that 2 man, the problem is your character isn't powerlevelled enough yet and you partied with cowards.

    Seriously that's your response?

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    If that is your position, then this is simply an education issue.

    Taking someone over level doesn't break your streak. It just means you do not get the "bonus" on that quest.
    Yes, and that bonus is significant.

    Not getting the bonus = losing a lot of potential xp for that quest. Much larger than 10% in most cases for anyone who was already on a streak.

    You're just playing semantics. "Not getting" and "loss" are in effect the same thing, at least in players' minds when they're looking at the group tab or picking groups with the BB streak in mind, which virtually the entire playerbase is doing.

    I'm ready for the next pretzel shaped bit of logic as to how this is NOT because of the BB system.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Rah rah rah, vets with good gear would have run that 2 man, the problem is your character isn't powerlevelled enough yet and you partied with cowards.

    Seriously that's your response?
    If your issue is wahhh, there was a shiney that I couldn't get.... Then yes.

    Using less paper-tiger versions of each side, higher risk should bring more reward. If a group can't do the hardest difficulty level, then no... I don't think they deserve the same reward. If a group isn't mature enough to figure out what difficulty they should play the game at... it isn't a problem with the game itself. There are toons and level ranges where I had to fall back to a hard streak, or a whatever I can get streak. I didn't encounter these unsolveable riddle of how to quest issues you describe.

    It appears to be a localized problem with a group of people that are overlooking an obvious solution. I don't think there is a need for a sweeping game change to help this situation.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Yes, and that bonus is significant.

    Not getting the bonus = losing a lot of potential xp for that quest. Much larger than 10% in most cases for anyone who was already on a streak.

    You're just playing semantics. "Not getting" and "loss" are in effect the same thing, at least in players' minds when they're looking at the group tab or picking groups with the BB streak in mind, which virtually the entire playerbase is doing.
    Not semantics, math.... A big percentage bonus of zero (not doing the quest) is still zero. There was no long term impact on the next quest. There is not a shortage of content at the level of tempest spine. The hypothetical group failed a math test.

    That is not a problem with bravery bonus.

  16. #176
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    I added these suggestions to another thread at some point ( a few weeks ago):

    - Eliminate streak bonus (it's not group friendly), and in it's place increase hard xp 10%, elite xp 20% for first 3 runs each, plus a BB for first time at those difficulties of 20% and 30% (#'s can be adjusted if needed, but this should provide adequate xp for TRs)

    - Add a 5% xp per person beyond the first bonus to encourage (but not require) grouping/pugging

    - Adjust scaling +1 from base, same cap (so a solo character counts as 3, no scaling past 4th person), to remove a factor that discourages grouping

    Streak is a bigger problem than BB because it discourages people (myself included) from wanting to run any content that will break streak and cost them xp for 5 quests to come. Just having elite XP higher (but not excessively so) and having BB for first time completion encourages elite streaking without making it a requirement (as it's treated now). Then if you want to run a quest that would break streak (because it's too hard, or it's a loot run, or your guildies need you... whatever) it's not big deal, costs you nothing, but gains you nothing.

    The above changes encourage grouping and pugging, which the game needs IMO. So sick of hearing "if you didn't post an LFM then YOU are the problem, BB streak is fine". B S. I have plenty of friends and post plenty of LFMs... and they are very slow to fill (but no slower than any others). Too many people are off soloing or channel grouping, and it's killing the environment IMO.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Not semantics, math.... A big percentage bonus of zero (not doing the quest) is still zero. There was no long term impact on the next quest. There is not a shortage of content at the level of tempest spine. The hypothetical group failed a math test.

    That is not a problem with bravery bonus.
    People aren't willing to give up 15-25% of their xp off the bat going into a quest.

    You can claim differently if you like but it wouldn't match 100% of what I see in game so I'd disregard it. Yes, it is a problem with what BB does to what people are willing to group for. Namely, only quest+2 elite. You won't fill a group for anything else unless it's elite first with hard farm after, and usually you just keep the same group for that.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    If your issue is wahhh, there was a shiney that I couldn't get.... Then yes.

    Using less paper-tiger versions of each side, higher risk should bring more reward. If a group can't do the hardest difficulty level, then no... I don't think they deserve the same reward. If a group isn't mature enough to figure out what difficulty they should play the game at... it isn't a problem with the game itself. There are toons and level ranges where I had to fall back to a hard streak, or a whatever I can get streak. I didn't encounter these unsolveable riddle of how to quest issues you describe.

    It appears to be a localized problem with a group of people that are overlooking an obvious solution. I don't think there is a need for a sweeping game change to help this situation.
    Higher risk always brought more reward, elite always offered more xp before BB. People repeatedly claiming otherwise is a fallacy.

    What's going on here though is that people used to the TR grind are totally conflating "best time efficiency" with "no reward." Elite did always offer more reward, but it could potentially take more time, or require a better or fuller or better balanced party in some quests. So some quests on elite were not necessarily the most xp-farm efficient for TR relevelling purposes, but that's not the same as saying they never offered a reward before.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Within this one post you do what so many people defending the BB system (by default if not by open proclamation) do, which is that you point out the problem (no one has any incentive to group or run quests on anything but elite) and then turn right around and say "but I see no problem wtih the BB system and hope the whining doesn't result in fixes."

    Either it is constricting grouping (which is a problem in a group-constricted game) or it isn't. You don't get to acknowledge that it is and then say it's not a problem.
    Good grief, you're still going on this?

    Look, it's incredibly simple:

    Step in a quest on elite with a full streak going & open the xp window. You'll see that you get a net boost of 150% xp: that's 80% first time elite + 20% Bravery for doing elite your first time in the quest + 50% for a 5 stack streak.

    Replace Bravery Bonous with some other mechanic that preserves the xp boost and maybe nobody will complain, but in all likelihood whatever new system the devs put in place will simply have some other gripe-worthy attribute.

    What's more, there are too many other factors also impeding a healthy grouping/lfm population, like scaling, dwindling game population and an ever increasing level spectrum (currently 1-25, soon 1-28); but you don't want to discus those because you want to focus on the evils of Bravery Bonous. Opening the optimal level spread for running any given quest by one or two will do little to address so many of the issues you've complained about through out this thread.

    Your like a cat chasing it's tail - what are you going to do if you ever catch it?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  20. #180
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    Well he does have a point in that running quests on while bringing an over level character along does preserve bravery bonuses and streaks. There is no incentive to run any quests this way but one could be added. You could add a "training" bonus for example and they are already discussing adding a grouping bonus I believe so getting the training bonus and the grouping bonus could be worth putting up lfms for. It's not really a suggestion but recognizing there may be a way of addressing the the lvl and difficulty range of current lfms without disturbing the bravery bonuses.

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