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  1. #141
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This is a fair objection. I'm not married to the idea of level+3 for bravery.

    Regardless of any change, I would be in favor of upping the heroic xp substantially in amrath and house c.

    Here's a new idea not previously proposed in the thread, and it's based off an actual direction the devs are going:

    Remove bravery bonus altogether, replacing it with a "first run this day bonus" mechanic for all quests.

    +60% for elite
    +40% for hard
    +20% for normal

    This "first time this day" would be for all quests every day, and would be across all difficulties. Meaning if you log in and run elite, you get 60%, but then if you immediately window farm it on hard you do not get the 40% bonus for hard since it's not your first run of the day. Log in tomorrow and you can get your 60% again, or run hard for 40%, or whatever.

    This incentivizes running varied content while not nerfing farmers. There is no streak to break, greatly reducing the psychological pressure to avoid hard and normal. You still lose out on a little xp for running hard or normal for your first run of the day, but you'd no longer be "losing" xp for the next 5 quests.

    This would also be more intuitive, I think, than the bravery bonus. Simpler for new players to understand is better, IMO.
    I would be interested to see a realistic example for a typical quest. I am a little leery about "first time this day" with such a huge xp boost and I stated my concern about that in the original thread.

    the "first time this day" and pick a quest to get it would mean players would choose a high xp quest in their level range. some quests like Von 5 and Von 3 would be insanely high. I cant see players wasting such a bonus on a low xp quest which would also mean players would wait until they were able to get a group to run that high xp quest and nothing else until they got it. I know I would do that myself.

    the "first time this day" for all quests would mean probably less farming, but less groups or less players running the unpopular quests. I don't see it as a fix, but adding to the problem. with that extra xp, it could mean more quests getting skipped and harder than it already is to fill groups. i think its too OP to make it so you still get the "first time this day" for the same quest the next day after you already ran it once with such a high xp boost. i think that still adds to the problem more than helps it.

  2. #142
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you some here.

    In an earlier post you were talking about how easy it is for any class to be self sufficient, even pure fighters. But here, you are talking about low level quests. That fighter you were talking about who uses heal scrolls on himself for 228 certainly wasn't doing that in the Xorian Cipher. Unless you were playing it waaay over level.

    For a class that has umd as a class skill, using heal scrolls is in no way going to be viable prior to level 11, and that's assuming you have a plus 6 charisma skills piece of greensteel. Even then, it's not going to be anywhere near no fail.
    For someone who doesn't have umd as a class skill, it's later if you have greensteel, it's epic if you don't.

    When people are talking about bravery bonus, they are very rarely talking about epic.

    As to whether or not it's more fun to be self sufficent than to have someone healing you. That's completely subjective. I can say that healing with scrolls blows compared to spell healing. Having to jump out of combat routinely and run around trying not to get hit while you wait for the cooldowns isn't terribly fun in my opinion.

    You also underestimate the number of people who don't mind healing. I'm not saying full time nannybot. That's a beginner phase of learning the class. Most people with some experience can heal while doing other things.

    To be honest, i'm not sure why killing mobs is necessarily more fun than being a support player. As long as you know, and even better, if others know what your contribution was, it all seems good. To paraphrase what Paul Newman said in the movie the Hustler, "anything can be great, as long as a guy knows, and he can make it come off". We're all just pushing buttons after all.

    When i read threads like this, it makes me glad that i've found a static group to play with. We're not uber players, but it isn't a problem. We run our tr's for elite streaks as long as we can, nobody i play with has any problem with using hirelings. Of course, we don't really suffer for a lack of healer types in our group.

    If we can't get past some traps, and i'll be the first to admit that i can't bypass all of the traps in the game, I'll just buy a hireling rogue to do them. That's what i got the astral shards for, after all.

    I like the bravery bonus. The idea of people doing quests on elite far above level doesn't really sound like it deserves much of an xp bonus. Sort of like taking third grade when you are 15 years old.

    I also think it's a fallacy that there are a large number of players out there who are hoping to see lfm's for quests run on normal or hard. The fact is, i do put these types of lfm's up, along with 'all welcome', and nobody ever joins them, ever. In fact, i have a lot more luck filling elite lfm's when i am over level, i.e. no bravery bonus, then i do with at level normal or hard lfm's.
    My divine lives I don't pug, not because I hate healing, I don't mind having to toss the occassional heal, (that said if you need a heal every cooldown I will let you die, I also assume arcanes are self healing till they say otherwise) but because of the trash that many "balanced" parties talk to their healers. I was sick of the wf barbs with negative heal amp telling me I sucked and needed to l2p because they died when they aggroed the whole room and jesus himself would have been required to keep them alive. My divines are now for guild runs and solo only because I don't have to deal with that, the rude individuals of the "balanced" parties are now reaping what they sowed because they need a divine far more often than the divine needs them.

  3. #143
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Change is simply the reality of the world we live in, whether it's the real world or a virtual one. No solution will please everyone, just like the system as it is doesn't please everyone. I saw a thread about what people would do if they had full design control and there was an almost unanimous approval of removal of Dungeon Scaling and Bravery Bonuses.
    Changing the mechanics of the game meet almost unanimous disapproval. Dungeon scaling and bravery bonuses are excellent proof of this. They were introduced to the game and still are wanted to be removed. At least the bonuses could be worth saving.

    So when I say I can sympathize with people not wanting to have their game changed I mean it.

  4. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    i think its too OP to make it so you still get the "first time this day" for the same quest the next day after you already ran it
    To clarify, this is indeed my proposal.

    The players who run every quest once on elite each life, repeating virtually nothing, will see little difference in such a system. (+60% instead of +70%; close enough, and can be made up with the occasional repeat of a high-xp quest.)

    TR zergers, who blast through a third life in a week or two, won't see any meaningful difference compared to the current bravery bonus, except that they could conceivably go back to NNNNNNNHE instead of the current ENNNNNNNH they do because of bravery. I don't think that's a meaningful difference.

    The casuals and new players get boosted up a non-trivial amount by this compared to the bravery bonus. I consider that a positive.

    What other type of players am I leaving out? I know I'm forgetting some playstyles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Changing the mechanics of the game meet almost unanimous disapproval. Dungeon scaling and bravery bonuses are excellent proof of this. They were introduced to the game and still are wanted to be removed. At least the bonuses could be worth saving.
    Bravery Bonus was almost universally cheered when it was introduced. Most people love it still.

  5. #145
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    T

    This is why people find FR spellwards so irritating: they can't be evaded (being a will save, not a reflex save) and they can't be timed. If you go near it, it hits you. Period. The best you can hope for is take half damage and be slowed. Super annoying.
    Greater dispel magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  6. #146
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Bravery Bonus was almost universally cheered when it was introduced. Most people love it still.
    Yeah there was alot of excitement when it was introduced and who doesn't like xp. I was already running most of the quests once and done anyway because I hate to farm.

    Must be nice having an edit button that works.

  7. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Greater dispel magic.
    Not nearly effective enough in terms of mana spent. Each cast reduces its CR by what, 1d8? Even an EH is probably CR20+, so that's multiple castings to remove it. Far easier to just have a trapper disable it for a pittance. Doesn't mean that their mechanic isn't annoying, though.

  8. #148
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    E
    I'll admit that my issue is I only play Dwarfs. I don't like the animations other races have, and I like how, Sorc and FvS aside, the Dwarf has some amazing benefits that are universally useful no matter what I play because of how the game functions at this point (such as a Con bonus and Con enhancements, making it easier to reach that mandatory 14 Con for higher end content).
    I'm playing (almost only) dwarves, and I had decent self heals on dwarf sorc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post



    I thought this was an MMO. Is it an MMO? I may have missed the memo that this isn't an MMO.

    This is MMO, but not all MMOs are wow clones with holy trinity concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  9. #149
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not nearly effective enough in terms of mana spent. Each cast reduces its CR by what, 1d8? Even an EH is probably CR20+, so that's multiple castings to remove it. Far easier to just have a trapper disable it for a pittance. Doesn't mean that their mechanic isn't annoying, though.
    Its not perfect solution, it takes some time, but it works.
    I keep dispel, greater dispel and dispel ward on my warpriest to deal with them.
    I don't have good timing skills, so most of other traps I bypass with death pact
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  10. #150
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    the "first time this day" for all quests would mean probably less farming, but less groups or less players running the unpopular quests. I don't see it as a fix, but adding to the problem. with that extra xp, it could mean more quests getting skipped and harder than it already is to fill groups.
    I like the idea of an increased "First Time This Day" for all quests, but I also agree with you. However, that's no reason to oppose a change to the BB system. Rather, perhaps we should be looking at why people aren't running those quests and encouraging Turbine to tweak them... if they can even spare the resources for that. >.>

    I like EllisDee37's idea. Maybe the wording is a bit vague or it needs work, but it's better than my idea by far. :P

  11. #151

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    Just to clarify since my original wording was ambiguous, I mean you get the bonus on every single (new) quest you run each day. So like say you log in, run VON flagging on elite (VON1-VON4) you get +60% on all four. Compare this to bravery, where you get +70% on all four. Now you happen to luck out and a VON5/5 LFM goes up as you finish VON4, so you hop in. They're doing 5 hard and 6 normal. So you get +40% for 5 and +20% for 6.

    If you wanted to do it all again tomorrow for the same bonuses you could. If this were implemented I wouldn't rerun them again tomorrow, but I wouldn't begrudge people who wanted to "slow farm" that way.

  12. #152
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    I enjoy how Bravery Bonus currently works.

    I have two characters that have no problems keeping up a BB and finding groups to join them, and in the off chance I don't get a full group I find it easy to at least have a partner or two to tackle the quest with.

    I also have a few characters who only keep a Hard bonus streak or who fluctuate between having a streak and not. These characters just hit up what ever is in the LFM currently or if it's dead go off to tackle whatever little difficulty their heart desires to get loot or what have you in the level range.

    In the end it is a game I play how I want. The game may have rules, and indeed plenty is in the game and could be introduced to the game that probably discourages Grouping. But Bravery Bonus, as I see it, is a mechanic that works very well and seems, to me anyway, to have a minimal impact on how things are run.

    Now there are plenty of people who will limit themselves, act different, whatever the case, and that is just something that comes with dealing with "people" who get to act and do whatever they want. Since it IS an MMO, I come prepared to deal with "people". Bravery Bonus I think just gets the "buck" so to speak because it's a mechanic, much like the "no death" bonus, that people build their game time around and if someone wants to play with them that doesn't agree with what they label as important well then play experiences could be soured or, more appealing, they could NOT group and go about playing their separate ways.

  13. #153
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I like the idea of an increased "First Time This Day" for all quests, but I also agree with you. However, that's no reason to oppose a change to the BB system. Rather, perhaps we should be looking at why people aren't running those quests and encouraging Turbine to tweak them... if they can even spare the resources for that. >.>

    I like EllisDee37's idea. Maybe the wording is a bit vague or it needs work, but it's better than my idea by far. :P
    theres been some tweaks in the recent past with upgrading loot, adding slots to loot, adding named loot, adding more named loot, changes in DS, Crucibling quests, and pretty much everything else but xp. with changes coming for possibly decreasing xp requirements to level for 2nd and 3rd life TRs, daily bonus and even increasing low level xp i doubt it would help encourage to run those low xp/unpopular quests.

    the biggest reason why players run the popular quests is because of the xp. loot is the 2nd biggest reason and fun is 3rd. an individual player will disagree, but im talking overall. the only way to get more players to run the low xp quests is to boost the xp. boosting BB, changing BB into a one time quest bonus or adding an xp perk to a sub or something that can be benefited in every quest wont suddenly make low xp quests more popular to run. if xp cant/wont be boosted in those quests than there needs to be loot that players are going to want to get and make it so you have to actually complete or at least near complete the quest in order to pull the item. this way, more groups would probably just complete it anyways.

    personally, i don't need to have loot to run a quest, but i do think the xp granted should be worth my time even if its just a 5 minute quest that i took the time to get all possible quest bonus. xp, however, is the driving force in this game and sadly it has to be good or at least the loot has to be good if Turbine wants us to run their quests. we want that as well if we want to play a variety and be able to put a group together without waiting too long to fill. we really do have plenty of ways to boost our xp in quests. we really don't need more xp bonus. what we really need is a better xp reward for quests. some are too much and some are too low. its very uneven. finally it seems part of our xp problems will be made better with the upcoming changes but there is still more that needs to be done.

  14. #154
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    To clarify, this is indeed my proposal.

    The players who run every quest once on elite each life, repeating virtually nothing, will see little difference in such a system. (+60% instead of +70%; close enough, and can be made up with the occasional repeat of a high-xp quest.)

    TR zergers, who blast through a third life in a week or two, won't see any meaningful difference compared to the current bravery bonus, except that they could conceivably go back to NNNNNNNHE instead of the current ENNNNNNNH they do because of bravery. I don't think that's a meaningful difference.

    The casuals and new players get boosted up a non-trivial amount by this compared to the bravery bonus. I consider that a positive.

    What other type of players am I leaving out? I know I'm forgetting some playstyles.
    So you can run a lvl 6 quest with a 5-8 group on n/h/e and get a bonus for all three runs. Likely the range of the group would still be 6-8 but it would be more versatile and more grouping friendly in general.

  15. #155
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Just to clarify since my original wording was ambiguous, I mean you get the bonus on every single (new) quest you run each day. So like say you log in, run VON flagging on elite (VON1-VON4) you get +60% on all four. Compare this to bravery, where you get +70% on all four. Now you happen to luck out and a VON5/5 LFM goes up as you finish VON4, so you hop in. They're doing 5 hard and 6 normal. So you get +40% for 5 and +20% for 6.

    If you wanted to do it all again tomorrow for the same bonuses you could. If this were implemented I wouldn't rerun them again tomorrow, but I wouldn't begrudge people who wanted to "slow farm" that way.
    Ah nvm I see now. So no repeats at different difficulties. I assume the level range for the bonus is the same. So the difference is that instead of getting a one shot bravery bonus per quest you get a dialy shot bravery bonus for quest. That may vary the difficulties posted a little depending on how difficult a quest is. I have to agree with Qualor then that the end result would be that all quests would still be almost exclusively ran on elite with the same level ranges as now only the quest selection would become even more limited.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This is why people find FR spellwards so irritating: they can't be evaded (being a will save, not a reflex save) and they can't be timed. If you go near it, it hits you. Period. The best you can hope for is take half damage and be slowed. Super annoying.
    Too much mis-information. Spellwards can have multiple "save" components, some of which can be evades, and yes, they can also be timed within certain constraints once you understand how they function.

    For example, take the ID spellwards (I've been running it constantly so have had plenty of time to tease out the finer details of spellwards):

    Each one has 3 elements,

    1. A slow effect (no save)
    2. A paralysis effect (will save)
    3. A fire effect (reflex save)

    It's entirely probable for a high save toon to pass through the AoMD (Area of Motion Detection) and only receive the #1 effect. My monk has this occur quite often, and my sorc less so. It simply requires making two different saves and having evasion.

    As for timing, I've seen the term AoE thrown around about spellwards, but it's incorrect in an important respect, because based on moving through the ID wards hundreds of times, it's Motion Detection (and I mean motion along the x,y, & z axes, not attack/spellcasting/ability motion) that is important to the spellward. Spellwards have an Area of Motion Detection around them when they are charged, so that if a toon moves while in the AoMD (inlcuding moving into the AoMD), the spellward will target that toon exclusively and discharge. After a spellward discharges however, any non-targeted toon may safely move into and out of the AoMD without being targeted by the spellward until the spellward recharges and the original target leaves the AoMD. A non-targeted toon may also enter a AoMD after spellward discharge, and then stop moving completely well within the AoMD and they will not be targeted until they or another toon moves within the AoMD once the spellward recharges. Now, obviously a solo player has limited use of this knowledge to their benefit, but a toon may use other party members to essentially facilitate their toon's passing thru spellwards without any need for saving.

    For example,

    1. Toon #1 (evasion monk) moves into spellward AoMD and is immediately targeted.
    2. Spellward discharges and is now targeted on monk motion until that toon leaves the AoMD in which case if the ward is recharged it will look for another target.
    3a. Toon #2 (fat-bottomed cleric) may move into and thru the AoMD and will not be targeted so long as they leave the AoD before the monk, or before the spellward recharges.
    3b. Toon #2 (fat-bottomed cleric) may move into the AoMD and stop immediately next to the spellward, before the spellward recharges, and they will not be targeted so long as they don't move along the axes or wait until another toon enters the AoMD and becomes targeted. They can in fact cast/attack or do any other activity including disable so long as they stay stationary.

    What this means in practice is that an evasion toon can relatively safely sheperd (they still need to make their saves, or just absorb the damage) the non-evasion members of a party through a bank of spellwards as long as the other members understand the mechanics. We've been doing this over and over in ID, so that no trapper is really needed (except for the xp bonus).

    ETA: Now, it's possible that some spellwards could have AoE spells tied to them that while targeted a single toon, may cause broad based damage that requires a save, but that's certainly not the case in ID, not sure about other quests.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 06-24-2013 at 01:24 PM.

  17. #157
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    I like bravery bonus, I like the fact encourages people to play elite and to run a variety of quests. It isn't causing me any issues at all.

  18. #158
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Pretty simple really. No one will be able to come up with a solution. It is true of any mechanic change in a game. People who like their game don't like game changes. I sure can sympathize with that.
    From what I've seen in the thread, that's not the case. People seem to generally agree that there are crappy downsides to the BB system, but then just irrationally oppose changing or replacing it on the presumption that anything that replaced it would hurt their TR relevelling.

    Operating from a baseline assumption that any change is bad change isn't a great position from which to have an honest discussion about positive change.

    Though I do think that people who are viewing the issue exclusively and dismissively from the position that they don't care about anything but their own personal TR relevelling speed should consider that the downside of the BB streak system and its effect/constriction on grouping is hurting the rest of the game, particularly people who aren't on their 19th life, and even if pub grouping for quests is no longer part of their ordinary DDO experience. People who feel they are utterly not affected by a problem are not and should not be the authoritative voice on whether a problem needs any addressing.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    I like bravery bonus, I like the fact encourages people to play elite and to run a variety of quests. It isn't causing me any issues at all.
    This is how I feel. Now, I'm not against some of the other suggestions (first run this day for instance) but I think bravery bonus is fine as-is as well.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  20. #160
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Yeah there was alot of excitement when it was introduced and who doesn't like xp. I was already running most of the quests once and done anyway because I hate to farm.

    Must be nice having an edit button that works.
    Surely we can rationally separate that most people felt base xp was too low, especially under TR penalties, from saying that BB is a great system.

    There have been multiple proposals not just in this thread but since way before it suggesting changes to overall base xp acquisition, OR to ameliorating the TR xp penalties, or both ideas together. BB is not the only solution nor is it the best one. Still to this day even with BB there are plenty of quests few to no groups do, because frankly, many quests are too remote, too hard to group for, or simply not worth the xp for the time or effort required to go do them. This is discussed frequently.

    Acknowledging the game has some xp problems (particularly for TR's, though not exclusively) is separate from blind defending the BB system. Treating a discussion of the negative game impacts of the BB streak system for grouping as "the enemy" on the logic that "the BB system gives me more xp right now as the exclusive solution to xp problems in game" isn't productive.

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