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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I may have missed that. I'll look for that later once I have an opportunity.
    Yeah, this thread is moving fast, and it appears the board timeouts are hitting everyone, not just me. I see an entire portion of our converstaion was duplicated via forum timeouts on the previous page.

    Quick summary: I went 12/8 fighter/cleric to heal with spells, he went pure 20 fighter and maxed umd to heal with scrolls. His healing is currently better than mine, and will be until I can twist in rejuvenation cocoon.

    A fighter could also go half-elf for cleric dilletante, or simply just farm up enough sf favor to get sf pots. Another option is to go 16/2/2 fighter/monk/pally and go for super high saves with evasion. Still another option is to an arcane version of my build, maybe 12/8 fighter/wizard warforged who heals with repair critical.

    That's 6 very different ways to make a fighter self-sufficient, and fighter is one of only two classes that isn't natively self-sufficient. I'm honestly not seeing how self-sufficiency is so limiting in regards to build choices.

  2. #122
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    So my question is:

    Why are we not discussing this and what we can do to change or eliminate this downside, rather than nitpicking:
    -Whether BYOH/Zerging is acceptable or not;
    -Whether people can build proper characters or not;
    -Whether it's more efficient to just solo Normal / Hard than to go for Elite BB?

    If what you say is true, then this is a major reason to change the system as it exists. In what capacity, I don't know, but that's what this thread is supposed to be for. However, it has devolved beyond that point for no explainable reason.
    Pretty simple really. No one will be able to come up with a solution. It is true of any mechanic change in a game. People who like their game don't like game changes. I sure can sympathize with that.

  3. #123
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Pretty simple really. No one will be able to come up with a solution. It is true of any mechanic change in a game. People who like their game don't like game changes. I sure can sympathize with that.
    Also because there is no way to fix it without saying "Yeah we like powerleveling so power level." this would be a horrible change that every single mmo avoids for good reason.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Before the full xp for an elite lvl 13 run could be had in a range from 12-17 instead of 12-15 so it's a 2 lvl difference.
    Not to nitpick, but this wasn't the case the day before they introduced BB, and it also wasn't the case in Feb 2011 when I started playing. It was always (since I've been playing) 1 level over effective quest level without penalty. A 17 running a 13 on elite (effective level 15) incurred a 10% penalty.

    The upside change the mechanic has caused is more reason to run a variety of quests and given players with 1st and 2nd life characters a reason to go vip.

    It wouldn't hurt for the downside to be minimized or removed. No one ever gets bothered by the extra xp. I don't run without the bonuses but the downside does bother me alot.
    I wouldn't object to the downsides being removed, but I would very much object to the upsides being removed. I like both of them (as outlined by you) very, very much.

  5. #125
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Pretty simple really. No one will be able to come up with a solution. It is true of any mechanic change in a game. People who like their game don't like game changes. I sure can sympathize with that.
    Change is simply the reality of the world we live in, whether it's the real world or a virtual one. No solution will please everyone, just like the system as it is doesn't please everyone. I saw a thread about what people would do if they had full design control and there was an almost unanimous approval of removal of Dungeon Scaling and Bravery Bonuses. So this system as it stands isn't pleasing as many people as it could be.

    It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to come up with a better system, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not to nitpick, but this wasn't the case the day before they introduced BB, and it also wasn't the case in Feb 2011 when I started playing. It was always 1 level over without penalty. A 17 running a 13 on elite incurred a 10% penalty.
    Yeah that's how it's been for a long time. It still is the case, actually. On my TR I'm consistently running into a backlog of quests where I am running 2 levels over with a perpetual 10% penalty. :3

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Also because there is no way to fix it without saying "Yeah we like powerleveling so power level." this would be a horrible change that every single mmo avoids for good reason.
    I don't think stating absolutes and over-generalizations will get us anywhere.

  6. #126
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Also because there is no way to fix it without saying "Yeah we like powerleveling so power level." this would be a horrible change that every single mmo avoids for good reason.
    Meh call it what you like. There has been a mechanic in the game to prevent powerleveling forever. Some groups of lvl 12 Trs probably can run lvl 14 and 15 elites so what is preventing that? Mostly the fact that it is pointless to do those elites early since there is no extra xp for running over level quests. There is no block at any door saying you must be this level to run this quest.

  7. #127
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Meh call it what you like. There has been a mechanic in the game to prevent powerleveling forever. Some groups of lvl 12 Trs probably can run lvl 14 and 15 elites so what is preventing that? Mostly the fact that it is pointless to do those elites early since there is no extra xp for running over level quests. There is no block at any door saying you must be this level to run this quest.
    True but the fix people in this thread seem to want is for level 17's to run level 12 or 13 quests with no penalties to anyone. No mmo allows this or ever should as it's a power leveling issue that disrupts the leveling dynamic in any game.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    So my question is:

    Why are we not discussing this and what we can do to change or eliminate this downside, rather than nitpicking:
    -Whether BYOH/Zerging is acceptable or not;
    -Whether people can build proper characters or not;
    -Whether it's more efficient to just solo Normal / Hard than to go for Elite BB?

    If what you say is true, then this is a major reason to change the system as it exists. In what capacity, I don't know, but that's what this thread is supposed to be for. However, it has devolved beyond that point for no explainable reason.
    The original OP was asked and answered by post 5: Bravery bonus was intended to get people to run a variety of quests instead of farming high-xp quests, and it achieves this solely by incentivizing variety. (As opposed to nerfing farming.)

    Your proposed solution in the OP of rolling bravery into first-time bonuses removes that incentive, and takes us right back to farming. The only reason the bravery bonus offers incentive for bad-xp quests is because it's a one-time bonus. Run it only once and you got your maximum bonus. Nobody is going to run a bad-xp quest 3 times to get the effect of bravery bonus.

    As to why the discussion then went off the rails into an anti-byoh debate, that happened in post 16. Which is fine, mostly, because the BB issue was pretty much settled by post 5.

  9. #129
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not to nitpick, but this wasn't the case the day before they introduced BB, and it also wasn't the case in Feb 2011 when I started playing. It was always (since I've been playing) 1 level over effective quest level without penalty. A 17 running a 13 on elite (effective level 15) incurred a 10% penalty.
    Feel free to nitpick my memory isn't perfect.

  10. #130
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    True but the fix people in this thread seem to want is for level 17's to run level 12 or 13 quests with no penalties to anyone. No mmo allows this or ever should as it's a power leveling issue that disrupts the leveling dynamic in any game.
    Yeah that would never happen. There were always penalties in place against this.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    My suggested values would be:
    -First time Casual/Normal: 35% (up from 25%)
    -First time Hard: 60% (up from 40%)
    -First time Elite: 120% (up from 80%)

    This would effectively roll the Bravery Bonus into the base First Time completion
    [...]
    If others have different solutions, I'd love to hear them. I want a discussion going.
    In an effort to get us off byoh and back on bb, I'll repeat on-topic ideas:

    - This "first time bonus" idea doesn't achieve what the BB achieves, and so IMO it falls short of a desired solution.

    - The BB itself is responsible for more grouping, IMO, though granted that grouping is exclusively elite.

    - My solution to improve the BB mechanic by mitigating the downsides is to cap the streak itself at 5, removing the psychological deterrent of breaking a 235 streak (for example), and changing the mechanic to decrementing your streak instead of erasing it.

    - After having read this thread, I wouldn't object to extending bravery to level+3 instead of level+2 to better reflect the previous level range of lfms and thus fix that problem.

  12. #132
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    True but the fix people in this thread seem to want is for level 17's to run level 12 or 13 quests with no penalties to anyone. No mmo allows this or ever should as it's a power leveling issue that disrupts the leveling dynamic in any game.
    You are misrepresenting people's arguments. No one here has said they want to be able to powerlevel nor to do quests they are overleveled for without any penalty. If you feel otherwise, then quote it and prove me wrong.

  13. #133
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In an effort to get us off byoh and back on bb, I'll repeat on-topic ideas:

    - This "first time bonus" idea doesn't achieve what the BB achieves, and so IMO it falls short of a desired solution.

    - The BB itself is responsible for more grouping, IMO, though granted that grouping is exclusively elite.

    - My solution to improve the BB mechanic by mitigating the downsides is to cap the streak itself at 5, removing the psychological deterrent of breaking a 235 streak (for example), and changing the mechanic to decrementing your streak instead of erasing it.

    - After having read this thread, I wouldn't object to extending bravery to level+3 instead of level+2 to better reflect the previous level range of lfms and thus fix that problem.
    Upgrading this would break the intention of bb at higher level heroic. For example currently at 18 holding 19 I run vale, farm rwtd, the the lords of dust chain an cap with a run in iq. If I could get bb on level 15 quests at 18 I'd farm litany then cap in vale, reavers refuge, iq, dreaming dark, house c, and amrath would now be dead content.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Upgrading this would break the intention of bb at higher level heroic. For example currently at 18 holding 19 I run vale, farm rwtd, the the lords of dust chain an cap with a run in iq. If I could get bb on level 15 quests at 18 I'd farm litany then cap in vale, reavers refuge, iq, dreaming dark, house c, and amrath would now be dead content.
    This is a fair objection. I'm not married to the idea of level+3 for bravery.

    Regardless of any change, I would be in favor of upping the heroic xp substantially in amrath and house c.

    Here's a new idea not previously proposed in the thread, and it's based off an actual direction the devs are going:

    Remove bravery bonus altogether, replacing it with a "first run this day bonus" mechanic for all quests. (EDIT: Probably needs to be "at level", as in only if you don't have any overlevel penalty.)

    +60% for elite
    +40% for hard
    +20% for normal

    This "first time this day" would be for all quests every day, and would be across all difficulties. Meaning if you log in and run elite, you get 60%, but then if you immediately window farm it on hard you do not get the 40% bonus for hard since it's not your first run of the day. Log in tomorrow and you can get your 60% again, or run hard for 40%, or whatever.

    This incentivizes running varied content while not nerfing farmers. There is no streak to break, greatly reducing the psychological pressure to avoid hard and normal. You still lose out on a little xp for running hard or normal for your first run of the day, but you'd no longer be "losing" xp for the next 5 quests.

    This would also be more intuitive, I think, than the bravery bonus. Simpler for new players to understand is better, IMO.

  15. #135
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    You are misrepresenting people's arguments. No one here has said they want to be able to powerlevel nor to do quests they are overleveled for without any penalty. If you feel otherwise, then quote it and prove me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I think even if it is only a 1 level change, this is still a detrimental effect of the change in how grouping works as a whole, and it should be addressed. Whether BB is a direct cause of that or not, it's obviously a factor simply because of how limiting the system is when it comes to the level range you can accomplish things on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Then honestly that speaks to the problem that is the huge TR curve, and perhaps that should be addressed. However, BB does shrink the window for LFM quests, as people have agreed here, and that is a fundamental problem with the system, in addition to my aforementioned aversion to the fact it provides yet another facet of game play for people to be hostile and rude about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Before the full xp for an elite lvl 13 run could be had in a range from 12-17 instead of 12-15 so it's a 2 lvl difference. I realize that you can put up an lfm now for a lvl 13 elite run with a level range of 12-15 but the lvl 12 and 13 players are more likely to be running lvl 10 and 11 elites so the lvl range of those most likely needing lvl 13 elites is going to be lvls 14 and 15. Previosly the ranges could have been 12-15, 13-16, 14-17 for full xp where now it is 12-15 but more realistically only 14-15.
    If this isn't what these quotes were asking for then I misunderstood them and the authors should have have been more precise.

  16. #136
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    To be less subtle: Playing any alt that requires someone else is less fun. That directly translates into the game doesn't need clerics.

    How about Xorian Cypher, when the party splits in two. Does that mean you now need two clerics to run that? How about the necro1 quest where two groups have to split up and run two different sides of the quest at the same time. Again you need to wait for two clerics? Or the necro3 quest where you split the party and pass the key through the gates? (Can be done as a group, but clearly the devs intended the party to split up.) I'm guessing the kobold island challenges are right out, since those typically involve defending FOUR different areas at the same time. No nannybots in that one.

    There are countless quests where it's highly beneficial to split the party up and accomplish multiple tasks simultaneously, but there are also quests that REQUIRE the party to split up. Clearly, the devs did not intend for all content to be played by a single group of co-dependent characters playing together in the same room or hallway.

    The game design itself encourages self-sufficiency. Trying to force a trinity mechanic on it is destined to end in heartbreak.
    I'm going to disagree with you some here.

    In an earlier post you were talking about how easy it is for any class to be self sufficient, even pure fighters. But here, you are talking about low level quests. That fighter you were talking about who uses heal scrolls on himself for 228 certainly wasn't doing that in the Xorian Cipher. Unless you were playing it waaay over level.

    For a class that has umd as a class skill, using heal scrolls is in no way going to be viable prior to level 11, and that's assuming you have a plus 6 charisma skills piece of greensteel. Even then, it's not going to be anywhere near no fail.
    For someone who doesn't have umd as a class skill, it's later if you have greensteel, it's epic if you don't.

    When people are talking about bravery bonus, they are very rarely talking about epic.

    As to whether or not it's more fun to be self sufficent than to have someone healing you. That's completely subjective. I can say that healing with scrolls blows compared to spell healing. Having to jump out of combat routinely and run around trying not to get hit while you wait for the cooldowns isn't terribly fun in my opinion.

    You also underestimate the number of people who don't mind healing. I'm not saying full time nannybot. That's a beginner phase of learning the class. Most people with some experience can heal while doing other things.

    To be honest, i'm not sure why killing mobs is necessarily more fun than being a support player. As long as you know, and even better, if others know what your contribution was, it all seems good. To paraphrase what Paul Newman said in the movie the Hustler, "anything can be great, as long as a guy knows, and he can make it come off". We're all just pushing buttons after all.

    When i read threads like this, it makes me glad that i've found a static group to play with. We're not uber players, but it isn't a problem. We run our tr's for elite streaks as long as we can, nobody i play with has any problem with using hirelings. Of course, we don't really suffer for a lack of healer types in our group.

    If we can't get past some traps, and i'll be the first to admit that i can't bypass all of the traps in the game, I'll just buy a hireling rogue to do them. That's what i got the astral shards for, after all.

    I like the bravery bonus. The idea of people doing quests on elite far above level doesn't really sound like it deserves much of an xp bonus. Sort of like taking third grade when you are 15 years old.

    I also think it's a fallacy that there are a large number of players out there who are hoping to see lfm's for quests run on normal or hard. The fact is, i do put these types of lfm's up, along with 'all welcome', and nobody ever joins them, ever. In fact, i have a lot more luck filling elite lfm's when i am over level, i.e. no bravery bonus, then i do with at level normal or hard lfm's.

  17. #137

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    Just to toss this out there, I could see maybe a "balanced party" bonus as something like 5% per unique class icon in the party that completes any quest without a late arrival penalty.

    Your class icon is the icon that display in the party list, so my 12/8 fighter/cleric would count as a fighter since he shows a fighter icon.

    Upon quest completion, every party member who does not have a late arrival penalty (and is not a hireling) is counted for these purposes. However many different class icons are present are added together for x, and everyone in the group gets x*5% "balanced party" bonus. Whether the late arrivals get this bonus or not isn't terribly relevant to me.

    Let's say my wizard hops in an elite crucible at level 16 for the first day bonus, puts up an IP LFM and pops a hire to start on the maze. A sorc joins, then another sorc, so I dismiss the hire and the three of us complete the maze. Now barbarian join, I tell him to pop a hire if he likes, and he does. I do the trap room and swim. After the swim a ranger joins the lfm and sprints out to quest just for the favor and relics. He gets 80% late arrival penalty as we complete.

    At completion, we now have a wizard, 2 sorcs, a barb, a fvs hire, and a late-arriving ranger. That's 3 unique classes -- wizard, sorc, barb -- so the group's "balanced party" bonus is 3*5=15%.

  18. #138
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post

    I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with people who jump in a group and say things like "You better BYOH because I'm not carrying your useless butt through this quest". And this is when I've been on a Cleric or a Bard who are capable of being BYOH but I've chosen to be support for the party instead. I don't need that hostility, no one does, and frankly, it does carry with it a sense of someone implicitly saying "Everyone should play this way".
    See now, i would have no problems booting that guy, without a word, i wouldn't even bother arguing with him.

  19. #139
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Just to toss this out there, I could see maybe a "balanced party" bonus as something like 5% per unique class icon in the party that completes any quest without a late arrival penalty.

    Your class icon is the icon that display in the party list, so my 12/8 fighter/cleric would count as a fighter since he shows a fighter icon.

    Upon quest completion, every party member who does not have a late arrival penalty (and is not a hireling) is counted for these purposes. However many different class icons are present are added together for x, and everyone in the group gets x*5% "balanced party" bonus. Whether the late arrivals get this bonus or not isn't terribly relevant to me.

    Let's say my wizard hops in an elite crucible at level 16 for the first day bonus, puts up an IP LFM and pops a hire to start on the maze. A sorc joins, then another sorc, so I dismiss the hire and the three of us complete the maze. Now barbarian join, I tell him to pop a hire if he likes, and he does. I do the trap room and swim. After the swim a ranger joins the lfm and sprints out to quest just for the favor and relics. He gets 80% late arrival penalty as we complete.

    At completion, we now have a wizard, 2 sorcs, a barb, a fvs hire, and a late-arriving ranger. That's 3 unique classes -- wizard, sorc, barb -- so the group's "balanced party" bonus is 3*5=15%.
    The problem with this might and I say might because I'm not a seer, just cause more multi-boxing as many people decide they want the bonus but still don't want to wait for a group. Granted this is probably not a problem to turbine as they'd get the sales of packs and expansions on the new multi-box accounts.

  20. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    In an earlier post you were talking about how easy it is for any class to be self sufficient, even pure fighters. But here, you are talking about low level quests. That fighter you were talking about who uses heal scrolls on himself for 228 certainly wasn't doing that in the Xorian Cipher. Unless you were playing it waaay over level.
    I was trying to use lower level F2P quests so that more people would be familiar with what I meant. Everyone can self-heal level 8 quests with cure serious pots.

    My self-healing builds don't generally get viable self-healing until around level 13-15. heh. Before that they muddle through with cure serious pots. Levels 10-12 are typically the worst in terms of self-healing, since pots are starting to blow. However, they've now introduced heal-over-time pots to collectable vendors, and those likely help out the 10-12 range.

    To be honest, i'm not sure why killing mobs is necessarily more fun than being a support player.
    It's more fun to do anything than heal because when you heal you're watching red bars. Doing anything else you're watching the action.

    I agree that killing isn't the be-all end-all; killing nothing but doing a lot of cc is aces in my book. A cleric who can't hurt a fly but can greater command / hold fairly reliably is both fun and a solid contributor. However, it's a dependent character, and just like I don't build dependant melee I also don't build dependent casters. I always want to be able to solo, even if only just to be able to do favor cleanup or tr twink farming without requiring a group.

    I also think it's a fallacy that there are a large number of players out there who are hoping to see lfm's for quests run on normal or hard. The fact is, i do put these types of lfm's up, along with 'all welcome', and nobody ever joins them, ever. In fact, i have a lot more luck filling elite lfm's when i am over level, i.e. no bravery bonus, then i do with at level normal or hard lfm's.
    Agreed. Good point.

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