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  1. #1
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Default On Bravery Streak Bonuses

    If this is TL;DR, scroll down to my solution and conclusion

    I apologize if this has been done to death in the past before the new forums were implemented, or even since the move. I find the search field entirely useless for looking for specific threads when it's a two word entry and I get threads talking about every single bonus in the game.

    I wanted to have a discussion regarding the Bravery Streak Bonuses, and the impact it has on the game. I'm not sure about other people, but I personally detest this system because of the problems it can potentially cause. Of course, I have issues with other mechanics like the Dungeon Scaling, but that's another thread for another day.

    First, I want to talk about Bravery Streak Bonuses. Note that I quantify that with "Streak" rather than just BB in general. I feel that the streak is the second most damaging thing to getting successful groups together in FTP content. In many groups, I have encountered hostile people that, even when the quest is advertised as being Normal or Hard, they will DEMAND that it be changed to Elite so they don't break their streak.

    Some surreptitious individuals have even ninja'd starting the quest on the difficulty they desire, rather than what the group leader and the people who joined them want. This often puts the quest too high to complete and results in wipes and the group going their own separate ways.

    I will agree that "jerks will be jerks" and that a system is not bad because of "bad people". However, the problem is that the Bravery Streaks breed an environment that encourages this kind of behaviour. Has it existed in the past when people didn't want to lose their 10% Flawless Victory Bonus? Certainly! I am willing to acknowledge that this behaviour is nothing new. This doesn't change the fact that the 50% streak bonus for Elite streaks (which many of these "bad apples" are running) costs a person far more than just a 10% bonus on a single quest. It's costing them a 50% bonus on their first quest, 40% on the next quest, and so on as they build their streak up.

    This is a huge problem. It is creating unnecessary drama that could've been avoided with a more elegant solution than the Bravery Bonus system. It is wasting people's time, which yes, it's a game, but that time is something that could've been better spent elsewhere. It also fosters an environment where people are more willing to solo or do small groups rather than PUGing the dungeon.

    Of course, treating PUGs like they're worse than a "Veteran" is nothing new. It's in every game. But like I said above, the Bravery Bonuses are only fostering this attitude and exacerbating the problem.

    Of course, none of this is new to any of us, right?

    My Solution to Bravery Bonus
    I don't like the system, but there's no point in spending 10 minutes whining without presenting an alternative to it, right?

    The best solution in my opinion, is one that is less restrictive. My idea is simple, and removes the potential for people to be nasty towards one another: Increase "first time" bonuses across all difficulties. This would mean you would benefit from running a quest above level (even if you received a penalty for being too high), are not impacted for running a quest on Normal instead of Elite, and you cannot have any sort of streak ruined by another player.

    My suggested values would be:
    -First time Casual/Normal: 35% (up from 25%)
    -First time Hard: 60% (up from 40%)
    -First time Elite: 120% (up from 80%)

    This would effectively roll the Bravery Bonus into the base First Time completion, reward a player for running on multiple difficulties (which helps FTP players, something that would keep them in the game and potentially keep them buying small purchases here or there or consider upgrading...), would help with the insane TR curve (which I hear they're changing anyways), remove the potential for griefing and drama, and allow a player to benefit from increased EXP from all quests regardless of their level in relation to it or not.

    Less restriction, more freedom.

    If others have different solutions, I'd love to hear them. I want a discussion going. The devs have been more active lately have they not? ;3

    I'm also curious about something else. I would like to know why some people support the Bravery Bonus, and I would like to know if and why others would denounce it. Certainly, I take advantage of it, as I've recently TR'd and have just reached level 13, but I don't go out of my way to continue exploiting the bonus. Since I've been running every single quest (Every non-raid quest. Period... well except Glade Watch.... ) and have yet to do more than a couple quests above Level 8, my Bravery Streak hasn't been moving. In fact, for the last couple weeks, I have not benefited at all from Bravery Bonus. I've been stuck on a streak of 59 for quite some time. But then again, I'm VIP so finding quests that I'm over-leveled for, haven't completed, and are good EXP is not an issue.

    Here are some alternative ideas presented in the thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If they want to encourage people not to farm, instead of a bravery bonus they should just give a first time completion bonus that isn't dependent on difficulty. Once and only once per quest just like BB but it wouldn't depend on difficulty. They already have a bonus for difficulty level anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This is a fair objection. I'm not married to the idea of level+3 for bravery.

    Regardless of any change, I would be in favor of upping the heroic xp substantially in amrath and house c.

    Here's a new idea not previously proposed in the thread, and it's based off an actual direction the devs are going:

    Remove bravery bonus altogether, replacing it with a "first run this day bonus" mechanic for all quests. (EDIT: Probably needs to be "at level", as in only if you don't have any overlevel penalty.)

    +60% for elite
    +40% for hard
    +20% for normal

    This "first time this day" would be for all quests every day, and would be across all difficulties. Meaning if you log in and run elite, you get 60%, but then if you immediately window farm it on hard you do not get the 40% bonus for hard since it's not your first run of the day. Log in tomorrow and you can get your 60% again, or run hard for 40%, or whatever.

    This incentivizes running varied content while not nerfing farmers. There is no streak to break, greatly reducing the psychological pressure to avoid hard and normal. You still lose out on a little xp for running hard or normal for your first run of the day, but you'd no longer be "losing" xp for the next 5 quests.

    This would also be more intuitive, I think, than the bravery bonus. Simpler for new players to understand is better, IMO.
    Last edited by Danemoth; 06-24-2013 at 03:36 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    I believe one of the purposes of the bravery streak is to encourage players to not repeat the same quest and play a variety of quests instead. It seems to me that your proposal would in fact encourage players to repeat the same quest to get the first time bonuses. I would think that a counter-proposal to the bravery streak bonus should try to achieve its intended goals.

  3. #3
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    I believe one of the purposes of the bravery streak is to encourage players to not repeat the same quest and play a variety of quests instead. It seems to me that your proposal would in fact encourage players to repeat the same quest to get the first time bonuses. I would think that a counter-proposal to the bravery streak bonus should try to achieve its intended goals.
    Has there ever been an official statement on the intention of the Bravery Bonus? I don't feel that this is the system's intended design, especially when one considers the amount of repeating necessary for many other aspects of the game, such as grinding to upgrade epic gear, crafting, and farming for rare drops. Because it's not consistent with other design choices with the game, I question whether avoiding quest repetition is the case.

    Not to mention people willingly repeat high yield quests often, like, for example, Gwylan's Stand, Tear of Dhakaan, and VoN3.

    Frankly, this reasoning is flimsy to a FTP or Premium player. Certainly, it may be the truth to a 1st or even 2nd life TR for the lower levels, but I was repeating many quests in the upper levels (16+) and I fear having to do the same when I get there again now that I've TR'd.

    I don't think not repeating content is a good reason to justify the toxicity it has created within the game's environment and the damage it has done to grouping. While I acknowledge that the game is in a later point in its "life" and will have a lower population, I also have noticed an increase in group drama and less open PUG groups with more heavily restrictive level requirements.

    However if you feel I'm wrong, I'd love to hear your logic for why. :3

  4. #4
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Why not just multiply the bonus by the number of levels below the quest you are as well. Level 10 quest your doing at level 5? 5x the XP award (after all other bonus's are applied). And while your at it, add an additional 1x for every party member you have that ISN"T a TR. So you can do a level 10 quest at level 5 with 5 non-TR first lifers and get 10x the XP..

  5. #5
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Why not just multiply the bonus by the number of levels below the quest you are as well. Level 10 quest your doing at level 5? 5x the XP award (after all other bonus's are applied). And while your at it, add an additional 1x for every party member you have that ISN"T a TR. So you can do a level 10 quest at level 5 with 5 non-TR first lifers and get 10x the XP..
    why support splitting the population? we should be encouraged to group together, TR or not. a first life character is really easy to level without BB and just running quests on N/H.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Why not just multiply the bonus by the number of levels below the quest you are as well. Level 10 quest your doing at level 5? 5x the XP award (after all other bonus's are applied). And while your at it, add an additional 1x for every party member you have that ISN"T a TR. So you can do a level 10 quest at level 5 with 5 non-TR first lifers and get 10x the XP..
    The main reason I don't like this idea is because it would take the "BYOH, be self sufficient, know the quest, be able to solo" mindset that pervades the grouping panel and amplify it. People would be beelining to do quests-- on elite-- UNDERlevel, to get the increased xp, and the emphasis on being able to do things many classes simply can't (zerg through elite over-levelled traps, solo multiple higher level elite mobs, etc.) would further hurt the grouping dilemma.

    What isn't being much discussed is that even right now, in the current climate of "we absolutely must do everything quest +2 level range on elite, almost no exception because of Bravery Bonus" is that it's shutting out a lot of people. There are classes that have a hard time functioning in that environment particularly when group leaders and group joiners are unwilling to wait for balanced parties because they themselves are on classes or characters sufficiently solo-zergable or sufficiently twinked/powerdesigned and expect everyone else to be too. What is a cleric supposed to do in a quest with lots of traps and a group that didn't bother trying to get a trapper? What is a rogue supposed to do in a group that said BYOH in a quest full of beholders, trolls and similar on elite?

    For many people turning to the DDO store to expensively potion-guzzle your way through unsustainable grouping scenarios isn't financially convenient... or even possible.

  7. #7
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    It seems that I was partly incorrect. BB does encourage players to run different quests since they only get the bonus the first time they run it, but they can rerun the quest without losing the bonus. I pulled this off of the Wiki:
    “The Bravery bonus and Streak bonus are a special kind of experience point bonus added to the game in Update 11, in order to encourage players to run a larger variety of quests on harder difficulty.
    These bonuses only apply for the first completion of a quest, on top of the first time completion bonus. However, these can only be awarded once per a quest, unlike the first time difficulty bonus which can be awarded multiple times per a quest. Running the same quest additional times will not give these bonuses again or affect the bravery streak. After the first run, you may run the quest on any difficulty and it will not break your bravery streak.”

  8. #8
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsburyParker View Post
    It seems that I was partly incorrect. BB does encourage players to run different quests since they only get the bonus the first time they run it, but they can rerun the quest without losing the bonus. I pulled this off of the Wiki:
    “The Bravery bonus and Streak bonus are a special kind of experience point bonus added to the game in Update 11, in order to encourage players to run a larger variety of quests on harder difficulty.
    These bonuses only apply for the first completion of a quest, on top of the first time completion bonus. However, these can only be awarded once per a quest, unlike the first time difficulty bonus which can be awarded multiple times per a quest. Running the same quest additional times will not give these bonuses again or affect the bravery streak. After the first run, you may run the quest on any difficulty and it will not break your bravery streak.”
    Ah, well even if that is the case, I'm just curious how a flat buff to First Time bonus NOT tied to a hyper-restrictive streak system would bar people from running a wider variety of quests. It's a large bonus that doesn't apply on subsequent runs. In fact, it's large enough that you can run a quest once on Elite and still get only slightly less EXP than a full streak but without the drama and other restrictions associated with it.

    The fact that a flat increase to a first time bonus would also apply to quests you may have missed while speed leveling (such is the case with the lower levels) would be a boon to players (especially FTP and players without many quest packs), not a bane like the current system is.

  9. #9
    Community Member AsburyParker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    The fact that a flat increase to a first time bonus would also apply to quests you may have missed while speed leveling (such is the case with the lower levels) would be a boon to players (especially FTP and players without many quest packs), not a bane like the current system is.
    Honestly, I agree with your assessment of the ill effects of the BB streak on grouping. And, I think a first time bonus for quests, without the streak mechanism would serve the same purpose of getting players to play a larger variety of quests. This would be a “first time in quest” bonus separate from the “first time at level” bonuses.

  10. #10
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Ah, well even if that is the case, I'm just curious how a flat buff to First Time bonus NOT tied to a hyper-restrictive streak system would bar people from running a wider variety of quests. It's a large bonus that doesn't apply on subsequent runs. In fact, it's large enough that you can run a quest once on Elite and still get only slightly less EXP than a full streak but without the drama and other restrictions associated with it.

    The fact that a flat increase to a first time bonus would also apply to quests you may have missed while speed leveling (such is the case with the lower levels) would be a boon to players (especially FTP and players without many quest packs), not a bane like the current system is.
    in terms of not enough quest packs for F2P, its intended to be that way. the xp shouldn't be increased to help the F2P level. the purpose of F2P packs is to give new players a taste of what DDO can offer and Turbine hopes you are than willing to buy into the game. some of those F2P quests have poor xp, but the quests are old and short from a different time period when cap was much lower and the game was much different then. level 6 quests are a good example. its been so long since I was F2P, I don't remember what quests are free and whats P2P, but because of the lack of xp and a lack of free quests available to me, it was one of the biggest reasons why I decided to invest in a game I was hooked on and paid for a sub.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I'm also curious about something else. I would like to know why some people support the Bravery Bonus, and I would like to know if and why others would denounce it.
    I agree with your point of view that the streak mechanic of Bravery is having a negative impact on grouping. Even if the difference between dropping down to a quest for Hard for one run is much less of a real impact than the perceived impact, it still keeps people from doing so to run with friends.

    The part that I do not agree with your proposed solution is that it is a blanket, across the board, first time XP increase. Bravery is good in that it encourages people to run the quests at lower level, while some of it is still actually somewhat difficult. Take that away and the system becomes nothing but an XP handout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Has there ever been an official statement on the intention of the Bravery Bonus?
    As you said before, the new forums make searching out old posts a bit of a PITA. But it was stated when Bravery was released that it's intent was to encourage players to attempt challenging content, and to provide an alternate path to leveling that does not require grinding the same few quests into the ground for high XP rewards.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-23-2013 at 01:00 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    As you said before, the new forums make searching out old posts a bit of a PITA. But it was stated when Bravery was released that it's intent was to encourage players to attempt challenging content, and to provide an alternate path to leveling that does not require grinding the same few quests into the ground for high XP rewards.
    That may be what is stated. What is unstated is the tremendous number of threads before it's creation complaining about how hard it was to grind out xp for a tr.

  13. #13
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    A flat rate first time bonus without the level restrictions of bravery bonuses would work but then going back to regular experience with next to no increased xp needed for a tr would basically be the same thing.

  14. #14
    Community Member khamastus's Avatar
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    I understand they want to ramp up the exp needed for tr's to keep things interesting but honestly, the power creep from being a tr should be THAT much more noticeable imo. You SHOULD be tearing **** up.
    If they did away with increased experience requirements for tr's, i wouldnt miss it.
    Do away with the exorbitant amount of exp needed for a third (hell even second) time tr'r and make a more defined 'raid' end game. Would be nice to see.

    Having said that, if this change was to be implemented I hereby state that each completionist that was achieved before the experience nerf be given back a good couple of months of their lives!!! So says I, nerd khamastus!! Slayer of time sinks!!!!
    Last edited by khamastus; 06-23-2013 at 02:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by teh_meh View Post
    1337 x Pi = 80081E5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    A flat rate first time bonus without the level restrictions of bravery bonuses would work but then going back to regular experience with next to no increased xp needed for a tr would basically be the same thing.
    So essentially, you want more XP without actually being challenged or doing anything more for it. Just an XP handout, as I said before.

    /notsigned

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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So essentially, you want more XP without actually being challenged or doing anything more for it. Just an XP handout, as I said before.

    /notsigned
    The concept that bravery bonus is about challenge and not about 1-2 superpowered multi-TR twink characters speedzerging the quest with either other people able to keep up and do the same or else with other people piking and just doing their best to keep up is kind of a joke. Bravery bonus is not fostering an environment of teamwork oriented challenge. It's fostering an environment of exclusive grouping and difficulty in finding groups, and it's hurting classes who are unable to zerg, ignore traps, or deal with swarms of elite mobs by themselves with no expectation of healing or team support.

  17. #17
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So essentially, you want more XP without actually being challenged or doing anything more for it. Just an XP handout, as I said before.

    /notsigned
    I want to respond to the rest of the thread, but I'm tired. However, I don't want to let this comment slide and watch as it potentially destroys an otherwise civil thread...

    1) This is a gross over-generalization of his statement;
    2) The current system as is is just an XP handout without any challenge.

    I don't see how removing BB+TR Penalties or increasing First Time bonuses is any different than the system we have right now. A skilled player can already farm "free XP without being challenged" because they've done the quest enough times to learn it. I was getting BB on elite Twilight Vale quests, and I consider those, next to some Xoriat quests, to be some of the harder quests I've had to endure. Granted, it was me (12 Bard/6 Fighter), a sorc, and two hirelings, but we were still getting a massive +70% boost to exp because of BB with very little challenge.

    The only people hurt by BB are new players, FTP players, and individuals who don't want to spend time taking on a quest they cannot handle due to reasons that Duskofdead has already mentioned. The people who use and abuse BB to the extreme are not being challenge by it, and they're simply zerging the quests as fast as humanly possible to maximize XP/Hour.

    And at what cost? A poisonous community and a dismal, non-existent grouping system? No thanks. The old system may have been slower, but that's no reason why BB should remain when it's hurt the small community we have here.

    If my solution is unacceptable, I'd be open to others. Frankly, I like the idea of removal of BB along with the TR penalty.
    Last edited by Danemoth; 06-23-2013 at 02:54 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So essentially, you want more XP without actually being challenged or doing anything more for it. Just an XP handout, as I said before.

    /notsigned
    Hmm no I don' t think I said that. I suppose you could see the regular xp reward with less needed for a tr that way. The quests aren't going to be any less difficult then they are now I'd just recieve less xp for them and need less xp from them. Getting more xp for them doesn't make them more challenging neither does needing more xp from them.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    As you said before, the new forums make searching out old posts a bit of a PITA. But it was stated when Bravery was released that it's intent was to encourage players to attempt challenging content, and to provide an alternate path to leveling that does not require grinding the same few quests into the ground for high XP rewards.
    Since elite offers better drops and better xp in ANY scenario, including since before bravery bonus existed, the concept that it must remain in place or else people have no incentive to run quests on elite is nonsensical.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Since elite offers better drops and better xp in ANY scenario, including since before bravery bonus existed, the concept that it must remain in place or else people have no incentive to run quests on elite is nonsensical.
    It is not through running on Elite that Bravery bonus encourages challenging players. Hard Bravery streak is not too far behind Elite. It is running things at lower level that makes it challenging.

    Honestly, the old style of underlevel bonus did that better. And I would like to see a system that encourages doing so again, rather than Bravery Streaks. But this is something that this proposed system does not do. Rather than increasing first time bonus, it would be better to give a bonus for taking in a group with a lower level range, even under quest level. This would both reward running a variety of quests, encourage players to challenge themselves, and also make it more flexabile as to what content you are able to run.

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