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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Better drops on elite? Only if your chasing named items you'd have a better drop % on elite, but stats changing with difficulty was introduced well after bb.

    Mobs and rares that only spawn in elite? I'm drawing a blank on this one. Can't think of any prior to bb.

    Better xp? No. If you can run tear on normal, have half the party do optionals, half zerg to the end, and finish in 10 minutes with nobody dieing, that was better xp then taking 30+ minute to do one elite run where the party had to stick together and people would die. It might not have been a bigger number at the end of the quest but considering you could do multiple normals in the same time you could do one elite, that was why people would farm norm prior to bb.

    We must have been playing a different ddo back then. Elite simply didn't have the incentive to run it back then that you are imagining.
    Must have been. Because yes, many groups tried to do quests on elite. The only difference between then and now is you could actually get groups for something other than elite, you could get groups for more than a 2-level window, and groups would typically try to do elite only after ascertaining they could handle hard okay. That's really all the difference was.

    Today it's elite 2 level window or not at all if you want a group.

    Please explain how this is good.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I have zero faith that a change would be anything other than a nerf. I don't think the devs have a snowballs chance in hades of getting it right.
    I think that's a selfish view that disregards anyone in the game interested in anything other than TR xp farming, and making the game difficult to group for for all non-min-maxed xth-life characters is also bad for the longterm health of the game.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    EllisDee37, doesn't an environment where needing self-sufficiency stagnate choices?
    Not in this game, no. I already gave an example upthread comparing two vastly different fighter builds -- fighter being one of only two "non-self-sufficient" classes -- who are both self-healing in radically different ways. Outside of fighter and barbarian, every class has an innate ability to be self-sufficient.

    I mean, as someone mentioned before, if you want a self-sufficient cleric, go Helf Sorc Dilettante. I'm not sure about you, but that kind of feels "yuck" that I have to play a Botox Doll if I want to be as self-sufficient as, say, a Rogue or Artificer with maxed UMD and a king's ransom of potions and wands.

    I'll admit that my issue is I only play Dwarfs. I don't like the animations other races have, and I like how, Sorc and FvS aside, the Dwarf has some amazing benefits that are universally useful no matter what I play because of how the game functions at this point (such as a Con bonus and Con enhancements, making it easier to reach that mandatory 14 Con for higher end content).
    I have a similar self-imposed limitation as you: I only play humans. In Starcraft I was adept at zerg and protoss but I almost exclusively played as terran. In DOO I only play human, so I get no half-elf dilletante. This hasn't prevented me from making a self-sufficient cleric, wizard, monk, paladin, ranger and fighter.

    I'm not even sure I understand what you mean about a cleric needing anything to be self-sufficient. Cleric may be the single best self-sufficient class in the game, with no multiclassing or racial requirements at all.

    However, I feel that any system that encourages (or provides a window to see) an overly aggressive, BYOH mentality on difficulties higher than most people are prepared to handle on non-min/maxed characters, is detrimental to the health of the game, because it will inevitably leave out certain class/race combinations that are not wholly self-sufficient in some forms of group play.
    I think trying to be inclusive of ALL class/race combinations would be detrimental to the game. You can't have build diversity unless some builds are just bad. May as well play neverwinter where all tanks are the same, all dps are the same, etc...

  4. #104
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Strongly disagree. Frankly, I think the people who have tring down to a science don't care a whit about bravery bonus. They're the people that start a new life, immediately run new ringleader 7 times and take level 4. They run shadow crypt 10 times, VON3 10 times, etc... and completely skip the majority of the game.
    Then honestly that speaks to the problem that is the huge TR curve, and perhaps that should be addressed. However, BB does shrink the window for LFM quests, as people have agreed here, and that is a fundamental problem with the system, in addition to my aforementioned aversion to the fact it provides yet another facet of game play for people to be hostile and rude about.

    You can do that now. Your only problem is that you need a group to support you, but if you didn't you'd just do this solo. I'm telling you that you don't need a group if you build for it so just build for it.
    I thought this was an MMO. Is it an MMO? I may have missed the memo that this isn't an MMO.


  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Rather than endless litanies of how easy this game has become for you with or without parties and with or without teamwork, I would like to see an on topic response for you as to why you are nitpicking a proposal to change BB in such a way that it didn't constrict grouping but still retained xp bonuses to players who need it.
    It gives a bonus for running content at level or lower. If I can't solo it on elite...guess what I do...I find a group in my level range.

    If they remove the penalties for running quests when you are over leveled...you just end up with people power leveling. That's exactly the reason over level penalties are in place, and should remain as such.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I think even if it is only a 1 level change, this is still a detrimental effect of the change in how grouping works as a whole, and it should be addressed. Whether BB is a direct cause of that or not, it's obviously a factor simply because of how limiting the system is when it comes to the level range you can accomplish things on.
    Think whatever you want. Reducing the level range by 1 only effects grouping by the obvious: instead of an lfm of 10-14 you have 10-13. Blaming this for the creation of the byoh/Zerg mentality is incredibly illogical and nonsensical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I've gotten into my fair share of arguments with people who jump in a group and say things like "You better BYOH because I'm not carrying your useless butt through this quest". And this is when I've been on a Cleric or a Bard who are capable of being BYOH but I've chosen to be support for the party instead. I don't need that hostility, no one does...
    While I completely agree with the sentiment about hostility, this is just another perfect example of how BB is not the real issue that's bothering you, and changing (even for the better) how BB works or removing it entirely will do nothing to address this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    ...and frankly, it does carry with it a sense of someone implicitly saying "Everyone should play this way."
    So does your apparent insistence that everyone should play only in balanced parties. You're just as guilty as they are of wanting to force your opinion of how people should build there toons, form groups & run quests as the people you're so upset by; and again: no modification of the BB system will address this!
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I beg to differ. The game was a very different place prior to BB coming into play, and I don't recall running into these problems as severely as I do now. But neither of us can prove either argument, can we?
    Of course it was. It's called evolution, change happens over time. While I agree there is no way to prove "how it was" before BB was introduced, blaming it for all your woes in regards to player attitude is irrational.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Frankly, the only way to see if I'm wrong would be to have BB removed and to see if people continue their borderline tyrannical zerging ways.
    Really? Try applying what's called a "thought experiment:"

    If BB were removed, how would that incentivize people to stop playing the way they want to, and start playing the way you want them to?

    Making it so people get less xp for a first time completion won't make them slow down, it'll likely have an opposite effect: now they'll have to find new ways to achieve the same xp/min they had become accustomed to.

    Likewise, how would replacing the BB system with anything else encourage people to not Zerg, not be self-sufficient and only wait around to fill and run in "balanced parties?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    And yes, I'm against Dungeon Scaling too. I know that's been mentioned but I wanted to keep this thread within the scope of BB, not Dungeon Scaling.
    While getting rid of this would likely have a much greater (and better) impact on the lfm panel, it also won't address all your issues with player attitude and build preferences anymore than modifying/repealing bravery bonous.

    Other than your fond memmories of "the good ol' days" before BB, what possable sensible reasons can you point to that would link either bravery bonous or scaling to:

    •Not wanting to spend time waiting for groups to fill?
    •Wanting to not need someone else to heal you?
    •People being jerks?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not in this game, no. I already gave an example upthread comparing two vastly different fighter builds -- fighter being one of only two "non-self-sufficient" classes -- who are both self-healing in radically different ways. Outside of fighter and barbarian, every class has an innate ability to be self-sufficient.
    I may have missed that. I'll look for that later once I have an opportunity.

    I'm not even sure I understand what you mean about a cleric needing anything to be self-sufficient. Cleric may be the single best self-sufficient class in the game, with no multiclassing or racial requirements at all.
    I meant more so that, yeah, I can self-heal better than anyone else, but I'm not really going to be doing much else beyond that. I opted for a Dwarven 16 Cleric/1 Fighter to play a Battle-Cleric so I can deal damage using Dwarven Axes without having to use SP for that damage, and I can reserve my SP for heals and buffs.

    Maybe I built him wrong, who knows. But I feel I don't have the same insane self-sufficiency as some other classes who don't have to trade other facets of their class to become self-sufficient (Like I have done with offensive casting capabilities to remain a competent self-healer during combat). My friend's pure monk is ridiculously, insanely obnoxious to group with because he gets the damage, self-sufficiency, and tanking in a single class. I don't like that class as much as I like being a Cleric or a Druid, and I feel I have to trade up the damage for the healing unlike his class.

    I think trying to be inclusive of ALL class/race combinations would be detrimental to the game. You can't have build diversity unless some builds are just bad. May as well play neverwinter where all tanks are the same, all dps are the same, etc...
    I think that's a bit of an extremist look at what I think about builds in general. I don't feel that all classes should be included. I simply feel that an environment that is tailored to self-sufficiency over a balanced group because zerging it and not waiting for a balanced party is more efficient potentially (key word here) bars flavour or non-optimized builds from groups. Those players may be better off not grouping with the kind of people who would exclude them, but why should the game foster that kind of environment anyways?

    All this may be a lack of understanding of the game and how to build characters over all. However, my gripe in the original post was the Bravery Streaks, not class builds, and I would rather get back to discussing that.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I disagree. I think the solution is balance game difficulty and class strength in such a way that it's not only preferred, but perhaps even necessary to group with a reasonably balanced group for most quests near-level on elite difficulty.
    Not only do I think this would make for a (much, much) worse game, I don't think it's actually possible outside of artificial mechanisms that would be nothing other than annoying. Like having every quest have 6 levers that must be pulled simultaneously (so you need 6 people) and have all 6 levers require a different stat check you can only hit if you completely maxed that stat. So every group needs a str-maxed melee, an int-maxed wizard, a wis-maxed cleric, etc...

    Give me an example of a quest balancing mechanic that would accomplish your goal; maybe I'll like it.

    makes the game a poor excuse for a team based MMO.
    It's a great team based MMO. Just not the kind of teams you like.

    I don't think grouping should only be desirable for raids, and I don't think healers should be basically lepers until endgame raid content
    I've already said many times that my cleric is no leper; he is fully solo-zergable and a solid addition to any group. If yours is helpless until endgame, that's a reflection on your build, not the class.

  9. #109
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    Forum issue double post
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-23-2013 at 09:28 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  10. #110
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Not in this game, no. I already gave an example upthread comparing two vastly different fighter builds -- fighter being one of only two "non-self-sufficient" classes -- who are both self-healing in radically different ways. Outside of fighter and barbarian, every class has an innate ability to be self-sufficient.
    I may have missed that. I'll look for that later once I have an opportunity.

    I'm not even sure I understand what you mean about a cleric needing anything to be self-sufficient. Cleric may be the single best self-sufficient class in the game, with no multiclassing or racial requirements at all.
    I meant more so that, yeah, I can self-heal better than anyone else, but I'm not really going to be doing much else beyond that. I opted for a Dwarven 16 Cleric/1 Fighter to play a Battle-Cleric so I can deal damage using Dwarven Axes without having to use SP for that damage, and I can reserve my SP for heals and buffs.

    Maybe I built him wrong, who knows. But I feel I don't have the same insane self-sufficiency as some other classes who don't have to trade other facets of their class to become self-sufficient (Like I have done with offensive casting capabilities to remain a competent self-healer during combat). My friend's pure monk is ridiculously, insanely obnoxious to group with because he gets the damage, self-sufficiency, and tanking in a single class. I don't like that class as much as I like being a Cleric or a Druid, and I feel I have to trade up the damage for the healing unlike his class.

    I think trying to be inclusive of ALL class/race combinations would be detrimental to the game. You can't have build diversity unless some builds are just bad. May as well play neverwinter where all tanks are the same, all dps are the same, etc...
    I think that's a bit of an extremist look at what I think about builds in general. I don't feel that all classes should be included. I simply feel that an environment that is tailored to self-sufficiency over a balanced group because zerging it and not waiting for a balanced party is more efficient potentially (key word here) bars flavour or non-optimized builds from groups. Those players may be better off not grouping with the kind of people who would exclude them, but why should the game foster that kind of environment anyways?

    All this may be a lack of understanding of the game and how to build characters over all. However, my gripe in the original post was the Bravery Streaks, not class builds, and I would rather get back to discussing that.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I disagree. I think the solution is balance game difficulty and class strength in such a way that it's not only preferred, but perhaps even necessary to group with a reasonably balanced group for most quests near-level on elite difficulty.
    Not only do I think this would make for a (much, much) worse game, I don't think it's actually possible outside of artificial mechanisms that would be nothing other than annoying. Like having every quest have 6 levers that must be pulled simultaneously (so you need 6 people) and have all 6 levers require a different stat check you can only hit if you completely maxed that stat. So every group needs a str-maxed melee, an int-maxed wizard, a wis-maxed cleric, etc...

    Give me an example of a quest balancing mechanic that would accomplish your goal; maybe I'll like it.

    makes the game a poor excuse for a team based MMO.
    It's a great team based MMO. Just not the kind of teams you like.

    I don't think grouping should only be desirable for raids, and I don't think healers should be basically lepers until endgame raid content
    I've already said many times that my cleric is no leper; he is fully solo-zergable and a solid addition to any group. If yours is helpless until endgame, that's a reflection on your build, not the class.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    However, BB does shrink the window for LFM quests
    If bb shrinks the lfm window, why are so many groups in the lfm elite runs? The only reason a lot of people even bother grouping is to keep their elite streaks going.

    If you want to know what shrinks the lfm, its dungeon scaling. Why on earth would I waste time sitting in town twiddling my thumbs waiting for a group to fill up for a normal run when I could just run in with a pile of cure pots, one shot everything with cleave, and laugh at traps as they hit me for 5 damage. It'd probably be faster at times to enter a normal quest, summon a hireling, put the hireling on attack mode, and just run around and watch them kill everything for you then it would be to actually fill a norm lfm.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I don't really want to do Church and the Cult at-level on elite with no trapper
    This is an example of one of the few quests where you really want to wait for a trapper. At least it is for me. There are a similar number of quests where your party has to split up (eg: Xorian Cypher) so this kind of argument, where you single out a subset of a few quests, argues equally well in favor of self-sufficiency over a balanced party.

    Of course, I would argue that the MOST balanced party is 6 self-sufficient builds.

  14. #114
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    If bb shrinks the lfm window, why are so many groups in the lfm elite runs? The only reason a lot of people even bother grouping is to keep their elite streaks going.

    If you want to know what shrinks the lfm, its dungeon scaling. Why on earth would I waste time sitting in town twiddling my thumbs waiting for a group to fill up for a normal run when I could just run in with a pile of cure pots, one shot everything with cleave, and laugh at traps as they hit me for 5 damage. It'd probably be faster at times to enter a normal quest, summon a hireling, put the hireling on attack mode, and just run around and watch them kill everything for you then it would be to actually fill a norm lfm.
    You misunderstand.

    I'm stating that BB makes getting groups together for Elite content more difficult because the level range (in other words, "window") is smaller than it was before simply to accommodate people maintaining their Streaks. I was in no way discussing the efficiency of running Normal / Hard on your own vs. waiting to get a group together for non-Elite content.

  15. #115
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In fairness, the complaint is that the LFM level range shrank from 4 levels to 3 levels. Before, an elite LFM for Attack on Stormreach would be for levels 13-16 for full xp, but since bravery that LFM level range is now 13-15.

    I really don't see this as a huge deal, but this is one of the complaints of this thread. It is a real, tangible change.

    EDIT: And I'm with you about the store. I would never, ever use the store for self-sufficiency.
    Before the full xp for an elite lvl 13 run could be had in a range from 12-17 instead of 12-15 so it's a 2 lvl difference. I realize that you can put up an lfm now for a lvl 13 elite run with a level range of 12-15 but the lvl 12 and 13 players are more likely to be running lvl 10 and 11 elites so the lvl range of those most likely needing lvl 13 elites is going to be lvls 14 and 15. Previosly the ranges could have been 12-15, 13-16, 14-17 for full xp where now it is 12-15 but more realistically only 14-15.

    That is the downside change the bonus mechanic has caused and it does make the range of groups more restrictive and less likely to fill.

    It hasn't caused more zerging, eliminated cooperative play, made only certain builds viable, made elite the only play option or really anything else.

    Those are all the choice of the players, some in response to the bonuses some not.

    The upside change the mechanic has caused is more reason to run a variety of quests and given players with 1st and 2nd life characters a reason to go vip.

    It wouldn't hurt for the downside to be minimized or removed. No one ever gets bothered by the extra xp. I don't run without the bonuses but the downside does bother me alot.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Must have been. Because yes, many groups tried to do quests on elite. The only difference between then and now is you could actually get groups for something other than elite, you could get groups for more than a 2-level window, and groups would typically try to do elite only after ascertaining they could handle hard okay. That's really all the difference was.

    Today it's elite 2 level window or not at all if you want a group.

    Please explain how this is good.
    It prevents power leveling. Simple as that.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    You misunderstand.

    I'm stating that BB makes getting groups together for Elite content more difficult because the level range (in other words, "window") is smaller than it was before simply to accommodate people maintaining their Streaks. I was in no way discussing the efficiency of running Normal / Hard on your own vs. waiting to get a group together for non-Elite content.
    But even if they took bb away, letting someone over leveled into your group still gives everyone an xp penalty, not to mention that even with bb, letting someone over leveled in your group for a quest doesn't break your streak, it just negates your bonus for that one quest. The over level penalty needs to be in place because without it, you just end up with higher level toons power leveling lower level toons.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I thought this was an MMO. Is it an MMO? I may have missed the memo that this isn't an MMO.

    Read more carefully. My response is fully appropriate to what I was responding to. As a refresher:

    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    If I could solo the quest on elite I wouldn't be here complaining about the problems finding groups or the problems surviving in groups who just want to do every quest at level on elite regardless of party mix.
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    You can do that now. Your only problem is that you need a group to support you, but if you didn't you'd just do this solo. I'm telling you that you don't need a group if you build for it so just build for it.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Before the full xp for an elite lvl 13 run could be had in a range from 12-17 instead of 12-15 so it's a 2 lvl difference. I realize that you can put up an lfm now for a lvl 13 elite run with a level range of 12-15 but the lvl 12 and 13 players are more likely to be running lvl 10 and 11 elites so the lvl range of those most likely needing lvl 13 elites is going to be lvls 14 and 15. Previosly the ranges could have been 12-15, 13-16, 14-17 for full xp where now it is 12-15 but more realistically only 14-15.

    That is the downside change the bonus mechanic has caused and it does make the range of groups more restrictive and less likely to fill.
    So my question is:

    Why are we not discussing this and what we can do to change or eliminate this downside, rather than nitpicking:
    -Whether BYOH/Zerging is acceptable or not;
    -Whether people can build proper characters or not;
    -Whether it's more efficient to just solo Normal / Hard than to go for Elite BB?

    If what you say is true, then this is a major reason to change the system as it exists. In what capacity, I don't know, but that's what this thread is supposed to be for. However, it has devolved beyond that point for no explainable reason.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    It prevents power leveling. Simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    But even if they took bb away, letting someone over leveled into your group still gives everyone an xp penalty, not to mention that even with bb, letting someone over leveled in your group for a quest doesn't break your streak, it just negates your bonus for that one quest. The over level penalty needs to be in place because without it, you just end up with higher level toons power leveling lower level toons.
    Anyone 4 lvls under the max lvl character in the group gets no xp, anyone more than 3 lvls over the quest causes all players to take xp hits. At least I think that is how it goes. It's been so long since I've done either of these thing that I can't remember exactly what the penalties are but they were around long before the bonuses I do know that.

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