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  1. #61
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Also just as a general retort to a general sentiment expressed in several posts: the concept that no one had incentive to run quests on elite before is myth. I was playing this game before BB existed, years before in fact. People always wanted elite if possible, but if they knew it would be too rough (couldn't find a healer, trapper, no melee, no balanced party, party barely survived hard, or whatever else) they would shrug, move on and maybe try again in a level or so. Elite has better drop chances, better drops, some mobs and rares that can only spawn in elite, better xp and better loot levels overall. This idea that BB is sorely needed because otherwise no one has a reason to run elite is just made-up. I don't get why so many people are saying this unless they didn't start playing DDO until after BB.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    The elephant in the room here is that so many people are building characters solely around being able to zerg through content as quickly as possible and get to next life and not for what they'd bring to a team effort, raid, or a quest that required a balanced party.
    As a general rule, self-sufficient builds offer more to a team effort than builds dependent on a healer.

  3. #63
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You think this is because of bb? Sorry but you are wrong. If there was no bb I'd still build toons for high self sufficiency because I recognize that 99.99999% of players don't want to be a nanny bot and heal me. Getting rid of BB would just mean I'd go even faster and not worry about da on hard and normal.

    Seriously BB has absolutely nothing to do with byoh, zerging or any other boogey man that hides in your closet.
    Read carefully. I said that BB has made it so that people will only group within a very limited level range of a quest, and will only do it on elite.

    If you are a class, a build, or a player that can't comfortably perform in a given quest on elite at-level, you can forget about getting a group to do it with. That's what BB does.

  4. #64
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    If you'll forgive the paraphrasing:
    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    If you like balanced parties, make a rogue-splashed cleric. If you wouldn't find such a support role fun, don't ask others to do it for you.
    A-FRICKIN'-MEN! & thanx for the new addition to my sig
    (paraphrasing required to make it fit)
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  5. #65
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Read carefully. I said that BB has made it so that people will only group within a very limited level range of a quest, and will only do it on elite.

    If you are a class, a build, or a player that can't comfortably perform in a given quest on elite at-level, you can forget about getting a group to do it with. That's what BB does.
    What class can't run elite, being dead serious, the only classes I haven't played to cap are bard and ranger, some can't solo elite but all of them can run elite in a party and be self sufficient. (Pure barbs and fighters have the hardest time with this but it can be done, I've done it)

  6. #66
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    As a general rule, self-sufficient builds offer more to a team effort than builds dependent on a healer.
    Of course, you overlook the fact that someone built primarily to heal is equally incapable as these other builds of totally ignoring monsters on elite at-level (you're particularly screwed if the party is zerging past any enemy mobs that do trip attacks), quickly navigate obstacles or handle intense jumps, or simply run through at-level elite traps.

    My high level healer is literally inundated with pleading tells from total strangers at random to run raids or pre-raids or flagging quests. Levelling a lower level cleric to get there, though? lol. No one's really interested in moving at a pace a pure healer can keep up nor is anyone particularly interested in covering the healer.

  7. #67
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Good for you dude. And if the stupid streak bonus was gone then those of us who want to play quests on more difficulties than just elite, would like to group, and for whom the game hasn't stopped being an actual team based game and started just being an xp hunting version of Farmville might actually be able to get parties together. The compelling bonus of an elite streak is the reason you can't get anyone to group for almost anything else, as there will always be at least 1 or 2 people in any group who haven't done the quest yet and don't want to break their streak.

    I didn't really see anything in your post explaining how the system is good or how reworking it would be bad... just you saying you zerg and want xp as fast as possible. Reworking the BB system into something that didn't so heavily restrict grouping options in a game sorely deprived of groups for questing would let you go do your thing but would let everyone who isn't just playing TR Farmville actually get groups other than "elite quest+2."
    Limitations exists only in your head. You're the one creating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Not to get off topic but, the monk class SCREAMS of being tailored like that. Pretty sure that's a significant factor in why you see level 2 monk splashes on many characters these days.
    .
    2 lvl of monk splash are not to increase self sufficiency, that's just 2 feats + evasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Random Person #2 View Post
    People who exploit bugs in code are cheaters cheaters cheaters. And they are big fat ****yheads too.

  8. #68
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    What class can't run elite, being dead serious, the only classes I haven't played to cap are bard and ranger, some can't solo elite but all of them can run elite in a party and be self sufficient. (Pure barbs and fighters have the hardest time with this but it can be done, I've done it)
    What I don't understand is that you'd rather everyone build either in a very limited fashion so that they can operate in elite with no team support (or survive it through dumping money into the DDO store for pots and such) than build a better system that addresses the issue of the TR levelling curve without proscribing grouping to a boring formulaic elite BB streak pattern limited only to classes and builds designed to perform in elite BB streaks without healing or without balanced parties.

    Seriously, can you explain to me what is this mentality that is so stubbornly resistant to the idea of changing BB streaking, alleviating its negative effect on grouping, but still offer some other system to increase xp bonuses for first time runs?

    I don't get how "limit what everyone plays to solo self sufficient zerg class mixes, or approximate self sufficiency through enormous consumable purchasing" is more desirable to you than getting what you want (the xp bonuses) in a system that less artificially proscribes the gameplay and grouping.

  9. #69
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Limitations exists only in your head. You're the one creating them.
    The only possible way for you to think that is for you to not understand how the bravery streak system works, and to never look at the group tab and see how groups are being formed.

    No limitations? Only in my head? I see. I just made up the bravery streak system. It's imaginary. And certainly no one is playing only for BB.

    If you want to be part of the discussion at least make a claim that remotely resembles objective reality about the topic under discussion.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Of course, you overlook the fact that someone built primarily to heal is equally incapable as these other builds of totally ignoring monsters on elite at-level (you're particularly screwed if the party is zerging past any enemy mobs that do trip attacks), quickly navigate obstacles or handle intense jumps, or simply run through at-level elite traps.
    In this thread, yes I did ignore it. On my cleric's first life I saw it firsthand, but my complaint is different from yours. I never got left behind, but because I couldn't do much of anything except heal, it became very apparent very quickly that I was literally useless. It would be 5 alts who had no need of my healing running through a quest having fun, while I ran through watching their red bars, which never went down in any meaningful way.

    I played my first lives (pally and ranger, 2 alts) without self-healing, tred em both and focused on self-healing and I thought my eyes had opened about the value of self-healing. But it wasn't until I leveled my cleric (after those two trs) that I truly understood. Self-sufficiency isn't just possible; not having it greatly reduces the fun of the game. And the extension of this is that a true support character is useless.

    I tred that gimptastic healbot cleric into a necro cleric -- build linked in signature -- and it's the most fun I've had in the game. By a country mile. I can and do heal pugs, and especially don't mind taking care of new players, but the vast majority of the time the pugs I'm in don't need my healing and I don't need their dps or cc. Together we crush the enemies before us to hear the lamentations of their women, with everyone getting their share of the fun.

    It's way more fun than staring at 6 redbars all quest, every quest, I can tell you that.

  11. #71
    Community Member Duskofdead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In this thread, yes I did ignore it. On my cleric's first life I saw it firsthand, but my complaint is different from yours. I never got left behind, but because I couldn't do much of anything except heal, it became very apparent very quickly that I was literally useless. It would be 5 alts who had no need of my healing running through a quest having fun, while I ran through watching their red bars, which never went down in any meaningful way.

    I played my first lives (pally and ranger, 2 alts) without self-healing, tred em both and focused on self-healing and I thought my eyes had opened about the value of self-healing. But it wasn't until I leveled my cleric (after those two trs) that I truly understood. Self-sufficiency isn't just possible; not having it greatly reduces the fun of the game. And the extension of this is that a true support character is useless.

    I tred that gimptastic healbot cleric into a necro cleric -- build linked in signature -- and it's the most fun I've had in the game. By a country mile. I can and do heal pugs, and especially don't mind taking care of new players, but the vast majority of the time the pugs I'm in don't need my healing and I don't need their dps or cc. Together we crush the enemies before us to hear the lamentations of their women, with everyone getting their share of the fun.

    It's way more fun than staring at 6 redbars all quest, every quest, I can tell you that.
    I don't see how the fact that you don't find playing a cleric fun somehow translates into the game doesn't need clerics so it's not a problem if clerics have trouble zergrunning elite quests without cover.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I don't get how "limit what everyone plays to solo self sufficient zerg class mixes, or approximate self sufficiency through enormous consumable purchasing" is more desirable to you than getting what you want (the xp bonuses) in a system that less artificially proscribes the gameplay and grouping.
    Surely part of it is that "limit ... to self sufficient zerg class" is all classes.

    Take my fighter, for example. He's a 12/8 fighter/cleric for self-sufficiency, and he recently ran the 3 MotU chains with a guildie who is a pure 20 fighter. We're both doing first lives, both farming up gear for the first time on these alts (first life, remember) and both starting Legendary Dreadnought from the beginning.

    Pop quiz: Based on class splits, which of us two is more self-sufficient? Technically, right now he is, and he will be for the foreseeable future because his heal scrolls hit him for 228 while my cure critical spells hit me for 150. I didn't build for heal scrolls because I don't need them; he didn't build for spellcasting because he can just umd heal scrolls.

    This is the self-imposed limitation of yours that Vellrad references. Your very idea that some classes can't be self-sufficient is purely your own baggage. It's not true. Anyone can build for self-sufficiency if they want to.

  13. #73
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    What I don't understand is that you'd rather everyone build either in a very limited fashion so that they can operate in elite with no team support (or survive it through dumping money into the DDO store for pots and such) than build a better system that addresses the issue of the TR levelling curve without proscribing grouping to a boring formulaic elite BB streak pattern limited only to classes and builds designed to perform in elite BB streaks without healing or without balanced parties.

    Seriously, can you explain to me what is this mentality that is so stubbornly resistant to the idea of changing BB streaking, alleviating its negative effect on grouping, but still offer some other system to increase xp bonuses for first time runs?

    I don't get how "limit what everyone plays to solo self sufficient zerg class mixes, or approximate self sufficiency through enormous consumable purchasing" is more desirable to you than getting what you want (the xp bonuses) in a system that less artificially proscribes the gameplay and grouping.
    I have never and will never buy things from the ddo store for self sufficiency it's unneeded. Since people think clerics have problems zerging. Yes clerics have low reflex saves and low jump. One way to fix that is to go helf with a wiz or sorc dill, another way is to put enough int for umd. I typically if I was going to be jumping around for a quest wore robes. With no armor penalty and 8 starting str a total 10 pts in jump and a str item I could jump around every trap in the game with a 10pt jump from a scroll. Add in a haste potion an you are golden. As far as killing things I went and got radiant servant which is plenty of healing power and then put points into light damage. I picked up evo focus feats and an evo item, I could kill just as well as anyone else till epic levels for the most part. Yes I didn't have the dps of a sorc ext but I had enough and was almost unkillable with all my healing combined with the ability to cast fire shield to avoid dbf damage.

    For a pure barb/fighter I went helf for scrolls, raged less when I thought I might have to self heal. I also got silver flame favor and picked up sf pots as fast as I could. Yes they have heavy penalties but they also keep you alive in an emergency.

    Combine this with picking up all the blurry / ghostly items I could on any toon to avoid damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    The only possible way for you to think that is for you to not understand how the bravery streak system works, and to never look at the group tab and see how groups are being formed.

    No limitations? Only in my head? I see. I just made up the bravery streak system. It's imaginary. And certainly no one is playing only for BB.

    If you want to be part of the discussion at least make a claim that remotely resembles objective reality about the topic under discussion.
    Does bravery cause the limit, not really. Even before bravery my limits were the same as I didn't want a toon that would have to effectively pike or die, and I didn't want to lose xp from someone being over level. I also wanted to run elite for favor already so that I could get my tp. Please tell me how bravery made me put new limits on my lfms, I'd really like to hear more about how I changed something because of it that I haven't.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I don't see how the fact that you don't find playing a cleric fun somehow translates into the game doesn't need clerics so it's not a problem if clerics have trouble zergrunning elite quests without cover.
    To be less subtle: Playing any alt that requires someone else is less fun. That directly translates into the game doesn't need clerics.

    How about Xorian Cypher, when the party splits in two. Does that mean you now need two clerics to run that? How about the necro1 quest where two groups have to split up and run two different sides of the quest at the same time. Again you need to wait for two clerics? Or the necro3 quest where you split the party and pass the key through the gates? (Can be done as a group, but clearly the devs intended the party to split up.) I'm guessing the kobold island challenges are right out, since those typically involve defending FOUR different areas at the same time. No nannybots in that one.

    There are countless quests where it's highly beneficial to split the party up and accomplish multiple tasks simultaneously, but there are also quests that REQUIRE the party to split up. Clearly, the devs did not intend for all content to be played by a single group of co-dependent characters playing together in the same room or hallway.

    The game design itself encourages self-sufficiency. Trying to force a trinity mechanic on it is destined to end in heartbreak.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'd really like to hear more about how I changed something because of it that I haven't.
    In fairness, the complaint is that the LFM level range shrank from 4 levels to 3 levels. Before, an elite LFM for Attack on Stormreach would be for levels 13-16 for full xp, but since bravery that LFM level range is now 13-15.

    I really don't see this as a huge deal, but this is one of the complaints of this thread. It is a real, tangible change.

    EDIT: And I'm with you about the store. I would never, ever use the store for self-sufficiency.

  16. #76
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    What I don't understand is that you'd rather everyone build either in a very limited fashion so that they can operate in elite with no team support (or survive it through dumping money into the DDO store for pots and such) than build a better system that addresses the issue of the TR levelling curve without proscribing grouping to a boring formulaic elite BB streak pattern limited only to classes and builds designed to perform in elite BB streaks without healing or without balanced parties.

    Seriously, can you explain to me what is this mentality that is so stubbornly resistant to the idea of changing BB streaking, alleviating its negative effect on grouping, but still offer some other system to increase xp bonuses for first time runs?

    I don't get how "limit what everyone plays to solo self sufficient zerg class mixes, or approximate self sufficiency through enormous consumable purchasing" is more desirable to you than getting what you want (the xp bonuses) in a system that less artificially proscribes the gameplay and grouping.
    Ok, now you're just being stubborn and argumentative.

    Nobody has said everyone should be required build that way, just that everyone can if they choose to.

    Bravery Bonous does not limit or restrict what builds are viable. It does nothing to prevent balanced parties; players do that all on there own.

    Nobody is against the notion of BB being replaced by a better system (though many seem to disagree on what would be better).

    The only thing that prevents "balanced parties" is people's lack of desire to wait for one to form. If a few self-sufficient types can post an IP lfm after one seeking to build a "balanced party" (for the same quest) and complete it before the "balanced party" lfm fills, BB is not to blame. The attitude of "I don't want to do traps and I don't want to heal, I want someone else to do those for me while I kill stuff" is the problem. Getting rid of or even replacing BB with something better will not change this!

    If your issue is that "byoh zergers" are bad because they expect people to play like them, you're being hypocritical because you think they should all be building for "balanced parties" like you would prefer.

    Replacing Bravery Bonous with something better would be all fine & dandy, but it will not fix what is really bothering you.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  17. #77
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    In fairness, the complaint is that the LFM level range shrank from 4 levels to 3 levels. Before, an elite LFM for Attack on Stormreach would be for levels 13-16 for full xp, but since bravery that LFM level range is now 13-15.

    I really don't see this as a huge deal, but this is one of the complaints of this thread. It is a real, tangible change.

    EDIT: And I'm with you about the store. I would never, ever use the store for self-sufficiency.
    Fair enough, I was thinking the complaint was that groups didn't let low level toons into it. I see that complained about so much that I made an assumption that wasn't true.

  18. #78
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post

    Replacing Bravery Bonous with something better would be all fine & dandy, but it will not fix what is really bothering you.
    Very much so this. I'm all for xp rebalancing, though I'm skeptical turbine will get it right and have nightmares about all quests being reduced to the xp of house c or challenges with their plans.

  19. #79
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    You mean, waiting till they're overlevelled and can solo it, because waiting more than quest+2 means they won't be able to group for that quest. That's what BB does to grouping. Completely de-incentivizes doing it whatsoever for most players unless they're within the range that you yourself here are saying that probably many players shouldn't be attempting it unless they're sufficiently experiences and well geared.

    So you start off pointing out the problem, and then saying but it's fine, they should just wait longer to try it? How does that make sense? They won't be able to get a group for it "later."
    I pointed out the fault of elite BB that it is the standard that even new players will attempt to do because that's what you normally see on the lfm and players attempting elite before they are actually ready for the difficulty making it harder on others and themselves.

    ive always been a firm believer in challenging oneself, but if a player is going to be nothing but a burden to the group or riding others coattails, than they simply should not be running elite. that's why there are more than 1 difficulty and there is nothing wrong with an easier difficulty. a first life character doesn't need to run elite BB to cap. favor can come later when you should be able to handle those lower level quests. with more experience and some better gear, than elite might not be so painful for yourself and others next life. this where the later comes in.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Good for you dude. And if the stupid streak bonus was gone then those of us who want to play quests on more difficulties than just elite, would like to group, and for whom the game hasn't stopped being an actual team based game and started just being an xp hunting version of Farmville might actually be able to get parties together. The compelling bonus of an elite streak is the reason you can't get anyone to group for almost anything else, as there will always be at least 1 or 2 people in any group who haven't done the quest yet and don't want to break their streak.
    If all you can find are elite byoh bb runs, those same people aren't going to be running "normal stop and smell the flowers" runs if streaks got removed. A certain percentage of players know a lot of content fairly well and have piles of gears for different level ranges in their bank and like to move fast through a lot of quests. Maybe instead of trying to daydream ways to get those players to slow down, play an easier difficulty, and at a pace you enjoy, you should just try to make some friends with people that enjoy playing how you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I didn't really see anything in your post explaining how the system is good or how reworking it would be bad... just you saying you zerg and want xp as fast as possible. Reworking the BB system into something that didn't so heavily restrict grouping options in a game sorely deprived of groups for questing would let you go do your thing but would let everyone who isn't just playing TR Farmville actually get groups other than "elite quest+2."
    BB is totally epic because prior to it, people hardly ever ran most content on elite. I would rather be more heavily rewarded for running a higher difficulty setting once, then spam running normal multiple times, which was common practice prior to bb.

    Elite +2 as far as level range goes is because elite adds 2 levels to the quest, so your essentially running it at level. I don't have an issue with this. You get max xp for running a quest when you are at the quest level or lower. If you are higher level then the quest you get an xp penalty. What's so bad with that? If they change anything with that it should be a bonus for running content with an under leveled group to make running elites at a lower level even more challenging and rewarding.

    I don't know what to tell you, some people like to play fast and can handle harder difficulties, some like to play slow and can't run everything on harder difficulties. Hamstringing people who like to play fast on elite so they have to play slow on normal is as good of a solution as placing timers on every quest so if slow players don't pick up the pace they auto fail.

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