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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    You don't get a 10% penalty having an 18 in a 17 quest. You would only get that if you had a 19 in with you.
    That's true. For some reason I got confused with the numbers.

    EDIT: Oh wait, I didn't get it wrong. I was referring to hard difficulty when I'm trying to use an over-level helper in order to avoid streak breakage. On hard the quest will be level 16 and both me and the helper will receive -10% for the xp. If I was going for elite I wouldn't have needed said helper in the first place.
    Last edited by DarkPhoenix888; 06-23-2013 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #42
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix888 View Post
    Ok I'll try and rephrase. +30% is indeed relevant but perhaps it's not enough. I would like to get some sort of BB on every quest I do but I can't because some are too difficult at level (and that's ok, challenge is good). I think it would be nice to let us gain part of this bonus by allowing us to do the quest on hard instead of elite without resetting our steak, otherwise the quest might be skipped. When there is a shortage of quests of certain level (like level 15) I try to do them all, regardless of the xp/min. I don't want to skip quests when I basically need every one of them in order to get enough xp to gain my next level. Not everyone likes doing the same quest over and over.

    Most quests I solo and those I can't I pug instead. I think it can be very frustrating to open an LFM and wait for someone of a very specific level to join me and help me not break my streak. I don't think that person has a lot of incentive to join, especially if he/she's done this quest before and won't get the first time bonus for it. I may not care that much for xp/min but people who do will not join my group. Sure, someone might eventually join after an hour of waiting but until they do the regular at-level pugs won't be enough and I wouldn't be able to do the quest (without resetting my streak which is unacceptable). In that sense I'm dependent on the high level toon and his/hers will to join.
    you make some good points about another issue with BB. I also wont repeat a quest on elite. I will go back and run H/N usually solo. because of that problem and because theres some players who wont bother to run low xp quests as its not worth it to them, this leads to more xp/min groups. what I also learned, with all of the xp boosts available to me (not store xp pots), I was able to mostly solo elite my way to mid levels by doing one and done. level 13 was where I started to really look for groups. level 15 was went I actually started repeating quests on hard. level 17 was when I started to actually grind (Litany).

    it is frustrating to wait for a group to fill, especially if you feel you need to have a specific class. this leads to more short man groups and using hires. with DS the way it is, its almost a good thing that a lot of quests can be soloed/short manned when players wont join a group because they already did elite and can solo hard/norm if they wanted to. I can also see how people will come to the forums and say DDO is dying because they cant fill groups for their elite BB.

    as far as losing BB with an over level player, for something like In The Flesh, its common to get an 18 in your group so BB will be paused. -10% really isn't a big loss. before BB, it was common to see 19 and 20's in Shroud flagging groups on normal.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    as far as losing BB with an over level player, for something like In The Flesh, its common to get an 18 in your group so BB will be paused. -10% really isn't a big loss. before BB, it was common to see 19 and 20's in Shroud flagging groups on normal.
    -10% is not too bad by itself, but you must remember that a big part of the xp is the first time bonus and the bravery bonus and an over-level helper will not get them (maybe the first time bonus but probably not even that). That means the helper will only get the base amount with some minor boosts (like tome of learning secondary bonus, VIP bonus, breakable, conquest and the like minus 10% for level range). That is not enough of an incentive to repeat a quest imho. And shroud is probably not relevant anymore as a source for reliable xp because it is filled with epic level toons.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I am yet to ever see a quest ad up in the group panel on hard for bravery bonus. It's always elite hard farm, if not just elite.

    I don't see this great diversity of options and choices that you're saying the BB system on paper offers. Sure, in theory hard's streak bonus is nearly as good. In practice no one in the grouping panel is pursuing hard streaks and hardly anyone can be bothered for the patience to put together a balanced or even full group for elite, either. It's BYOH, know the quest, elite BB. All day erry day.
    I just finished my first 4th life TR. I elite streaked through Litany, then broke my streak down to hard for the Vale flaggers. I don't advertise in the LFM that I'm hard streaking, I just put either hard or hard farm in the LFM with the proper level restrictions. Elite BB lfms are stated that way because generally nobody runs an Elite farm.

  5. #45
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    If they want to encourage people not to farm, instead of a bravery bonus they should just give a first time completion bonus that isn't dependent on difficulty. Once and only once per quest just like BB but it wouldn't depend on difficulty. They already have a bonus for difficulty level anyhow.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix888 View Post
    -10% is not too bad by itself, but you must remember that a big part of the xp is the first time bonus and the bravery bonus and an over-level helper will not get them (maybe the first time bonus but probably not even that). That means the helper will only get the base amount with some minor boosts (like tome of learning secondary bonus, VIP bonus, breakable, conquest and the like minus 10% for level range). That is not enough of an incentive to repeat a quest imho. And shroud is probably not relevant anymore as a source for reliable xp because it is filled with epic level toons.
    The incentive for an over-level helper to run a given quest with you is likely either a basic human desire to help someone, or because said helper is your friend. For these people, in this circumstance, XP is just fluff. This is one of the advantages of being in a guild; for those not in your guild, you have your friend list.

    Personally, with regard to the last quest in the Harbinger chain, if I need to call for help, I no longer really care about the XP. I just want the completion. This means the elite favor for the quest, and collecting the end reward, which can be rather nice. With that in mind, I have no compunction about asking help from a couple of nuclear level 25's.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix888 View Post
    -10% is not too bad by itself, but you must remember that a big part of the xp is the first time bonus and the bravery bonus and an over-level helper will not get them (maybe the first time bonus but probably not even that). That means the helper will only get the base amount with some minor boosts (like tome of learning secondary bonus, VIP bonus, breakable, conquest and the like minus 10% for level range). That is not enough of an incentive to repeat a quest imho. And shroud is probably not relevant anymore as a source for reliable xp because it is filled with epic level toons.
    you still get the first time bonus. that has nothing to do with having an over level player in the group and likewise, that over level player is getting first time bonus too if he/she hadn't already run the quest before. normally, that over level player isn't there for the xp. he/she is there usually to help you complete and pausing your BB, or he/she wasn't able to complete at level and still wants completion/favor. there really is only a handful of quests that we see this kind of grouping, so typically its not the norm. something like In The Flesh, I don't mind a little xp loss because most pug groups don't complete at level on elite and I consider it bonus for getting the completion.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If they want to encourage people not to farm, instead of a bravery bonus they should just give a first time completion bonus that isn't dependent on difficulty. Once and only once per quest just like BB but it wouldn't depend on difficulty. They already have a bonus for difficulty level anyhow.
    This is a superb idea. I can't think of a downside to this at all. Just scrap bb, give everyone a first time reward of 30 or 40 percent, regardless of difficulty, and call it a day. This would work particularly well if the TR curve were scaled down as well. Nice thinking!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    This is a superb idea. I can't think of a downside to this at all. Just scrap bb, give everyone a first time reward of 30 or 40 percent, regardless of difficulty, and call it a day. This would work particularly well if the TR curve were scaled down as well. Nice thinking!
    Being premium, I need the favor for my tp.

    That being said, I will certainly run Elite as much as possible to get the most favor/tp possible. I imagine that there are others in the same boat.

    I could get behind the idea of getting the BB no matter what difficulty However; I think that you will see a ton of LFM’s leading to elite so people can get the max tp a life.
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  10. #50
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    For me playing with a group(optimal or not) is more important than my streak sure it can help a lot but I prefer actually playing with people that want to have fun than someone obsessed with keeping their streak and yes I TR and I am VIP

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  11. #51
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    I'll address a few points here in general. If someone wants me to address something in specific, please point me to it, as I just want to quickly touch on a few common points:

    I have lead groups in the past, both before and after BB. However, since BB was released, I have noticed a change in behaviour. I've had it occur no less than 4 times where I start a group for a quest like Tempest's Spine, and one person either jumps right into the quest on Elite when I had it advertised for Normal or Hard, meaning I either have to reform the group or go with it (and at least once I lost a few players who weren't paying attention and didn't realize we were reforming because of ninja TR forcing us onto Elite).

    I've also been on the other side of it, where I've joined a group, then had another player join shortly after who demanded BYOH and BB when the group was more laid back before hand.

    Did these problems exist beforehand? Sure. I'm not denying it. No one in this thread ever denied these problems existed. But as another player stated, BB offers another window into seeing this kind of personality in the game. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone or any one type of player. Jerks are jerks, I said that before. But BB has certainly created an environment where there are more jerks, and at this point, I've given up on leading groups because I'm tired of the drama.

    Does that make me a bad person for complaining about stuff but not being a leader in coming up with a solution? Perhaps, but I also want to enjoy the game. I'm a high school teacher; I deal with drama on a daily basis. Why should I come here and deal with people hijacking my quests and causing me problems? I doubt I'm the only one who has a horror story about grouping because someone demanded BYOH and BB when the group wasn't advertised as such.

    I also don't feel the BB has created enough variety. It's Elite or nothing as far as many PUGs are concerned. On Orien RIGHT NOW, out of 13 quests in the LFM window that are not currently active, 11 of them say "Elite" or "Leet" or "Elite for BB". There is only ONE Normal quest and ONE that has no difficulty specified.

    Where is this variety people speak of? If I look for a group, they're all elite. If I form a group, someone invariably wants a BYOH Elite run with his 2 Monk splash while the cleric and non-Evasion fighters get left behind traps.

    I'm seriously not seeing any benefit to BB other than the massive EXP gains which have become a requirement for the TR exp curve, but that's really not the reason BB should remain, but rather the TR curve should be lessened or removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    If they want to encourage people not to farm, instead of a bravery bonus they should just give a first time completion bonus that isn't dependent on difficulty. Once and only once per quest just like BB but it wouldn't depend on difficulty. They already have a bonus for difficulty level anyhow.
    Like some other suggestions people have made (Such as lessening the TR curve), I also like this. Anything that gets people away from the highly restrictive streak and level requirements would be nice. I rather like this slarden. Mind if I include in the OP?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I also don't feel the BB has created enough variety. It's Elite or nothing as far as many PUGs are concerned. On Orien RIGHT NOW, out of 13 quests in the LFM window that are not currently active, 11 of them say "Elite" or "Leet" or "Elite for BB". There is only ONE Normal quest and ONE that has no difficulty specified.
    This isn't because of bb, this is because of scaling. If I can solo so much of the games content on normal with such ease that its a joke, why would I waste 15 minutes filling a group for a 7 minute quest? If I'm one shotting most mobs in the quest with a greatsword/cleave, getting hit for 3 damage, can ignore most traps completely with ship resistance buffs, and have 600 healing potions on me...I'm just simply not going to waste time waiting for a group to run normal.

    If anything, bb is the only reason I do group for most content, as waiting a bit for a group for elite to keep your streak going is probably going to be worth the time in the long run, rather then saying screw it, running norm, and having to restart your streak and losing a portion of your bonus until you get it maxed out again. Its just not time effective for most people to bother making a group for norm or hard anymore, unless your going to norm/hard farm a quest, like bloody crypt for example, where splitting up can save you a lot of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Where is this variety people speak of? If I look for a group, they're all elite. If I form a group, someone invariably wants a BYOH Elite run with his 2 Monk splash while the cleric and non-Evasion fighters get left behind traps.
    What makes you think that guy zerging ahead on elite running through traps with his high save evasion toon isn't going to be doing the exact same thing on norm or hard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I'm seriously not seeing any benefit to BB other than the massive EXP gains which have become a requirement for the TR exp curve, but that's really not the reason BB should remain, but rather the TR curve should be lessened or removed.
    Not a solution. If I need less xp to tr...I'm still going to play the same way. I'm going to elite zerg most content fast as possible just to get free tps from favor each life. Only difference being if I need less xp I'd skip over a few more of the quests I find annoying and run less norm/hard farms at higher levels, which would actually make it even harder for people wanting non-elite runs.

    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that prior to bb, the opposite problem existed...nobody bothered running elite for a lot of content. If you could easily split up on norm without anyone dieing, and finish the quest significantly faster then elite, that was the most efficient way to xp. Two super fast norm runs with no deaths would give you more xp/min then one slow elite run with someone getting killed.

  13. #53

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    The two best fixes for bravery bonus would be to 1) cap the streak at 5, removing the psychological issue of breaking massive streaks, and 2) decrement streaks instead of erasing them. Doing this wouldn't hurt the actual BB mechanic but would greatly reduce the stressing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Bravery bonus is not fostering an environment of teamwork oriented challenge. It's fostering an environment of exclusive grouping and difficulty in finding groups, and it's hurting classes who are unable to zerg, ignore traps, or deal with swarms of elite mobs by themselves with no expectation of healing or team support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    There are classes that have a hard time functioning in that environment particularly when group leaders and group joiners are unwilling to wait for balanced parties because they themselves are on classes or characters sufficiently solo-zergable or sufficiently twinked/powerdesigned and expect everyone else to be too.
    No, there aren't classes like that. There are builds and players like that, not classes. Any class icon can be made self-sufficient and zerg-ready.

    The heart of the self-sufficient vs balanced party debate is that playing pure support roles is no fun. People who want a balanced party are asking for someone else to sacrifice fun so that they can have fun. I've never viewed this as viable. In one of these debates, an anti-BYOH poster actually admitted that he didn't like BYOH because he didn't want to have to watch his redbar, he just wanted to have fun. The reality of that statement never sunk in for him, that he was admitting he wanted others to sacrifice fun for his benefit.

    Put it this way: If you like to play with balanced parties, role up a rogue-splashed human cleric with 16 int and 14 wis, con & dex, dumping all other stats. (28pt build) Focus this character on exactly three things: healing power, trapping skills, and reflex saves (with evasion.) Spend your feats on hp, sp, reflex saves and trapping skills. Now you're a magic bullet for any group, providing all the heals and trapping required from any quest.

    If you wouldn't find such a support role fun, don't ask others to do similar by asking for balanced parties. That's code for "you heal me so I can have fun." If you would find such a character fun, roll one up and never worry about a balanced party again, since any party you join will be balanced by virtue of your presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    This is a superb idea. I can't think of a downside to this at all. Just scrap bb, give everyone a first time reward of 30 or 40 percent, regardless of difficulty, and call it a day. This would work particularly well if the TR curve were scaled down as well. Nice thinking!
    The downside is that it's a non-trivial nerf to the value of being VIP. I've never been VIP and never would, much preferring permanent ownership of content via premium purchases, but I am very much in favor of giving VIPs as many perks as possible to encourage subscriptions so that DDO can keep the lights on. Elite open is a major VIP perk solely because of BB.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I've had it occur no less than 4 times where I start a group... and one person jumps right into the quest on Elite when I had it advertised for Normal or Hard, meaning I either have to reform the group or go with it (and at least once I lost a few players who weren't paying attention and didn't realize we were reforming because of ninja TR forcing us onto Elite).
    Given that BB was introduced (I think) over two years ago, I would say the ratio of when this happens/doesn't happen is pretty dang small. As for those not paying attention, maybe send them a tell, maybe be glad that the inattentive were weeded out, whichever suits you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I've also been on the other side of it, where I've joined a group, then had another player join shortly after who demanded BYOH and BB when the group was more laid back before hand.
    Then the guy with the star should inform them their demands won't be met, and they should either abide by the lfm they chose to join or move on to a group that better suits their interests. This another issue of player personality more than BB.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    BB has certainly created an environment where there are more jerks
    No, you were more correct with you initial assessment. While BB may offer jerks another opportunity to express their jerkiness, I'm highly doubtful it created them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I've given up on leading groups because I'm tired of the drama.
    Certainly your prerogative to do so, but ending BB won't fix the dramma issues, at best it'll just change the flavor. In the mean time, you've become one less person posting an lfm so hopefully you're not also someone who complains about the lack of them
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Does that make me a bad person for complaining about stuff but not being a leader in coming up with a solution?
    Nope
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Perhaps, but I also want to enjoy the game. I'm a high school teacher; I deal with drama on a daily basis. Why should I come here and deal with people hijacking my quests and causing me problems? I doubt I'm the only one who has a horror story about grouping because someone demanded BYOH and BB when the group wasn't advertised as such.
    Both examples of drama & jerks already addressed, but again: removing/changing BB will only change the flavor of the drama, not it's existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I also don't feel the BB has created enough variety. It's Elite or nothing as far as many PUGs are concerned. On Orien RIGHT NOW, out of 13 quests in the LFM window that are not currently active, 11 of them say "Elite" or "Leet" or "Elite for BB". There is only ONE Normal quest and ONE that has no difficulty specified... Where is this variety people speak of? If I look for a group, they're all elite.
    BB wasn't intended (afaik/IMO) to encourage a variety of difficulties, rather it was intended to encourage a broader varity of quests. In this regard, I believe it has successfully met it's goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    If I form a group, someone invariably wants a BYOH Elite run with his 2 Monk splash while the cleric and non-Evasion fighters get left behind traps.
    Again, not in issue to be blamed on the exists ce of BB. If the evasionist doesn't go zerging ahead, you're still stuck behind the traps unless you have a trapper; and if you do have a trapper, the zerging evasionist isn't leaving you stuck anywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I'm seriously not seeing any benefit to BB other than the massive EXP gains which have become a requirement for the TR exp curve, but that's really not the reason BB should remain, but rather the TR curve should be lessened or removed.
    Just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. I've certainly noticed an increase in the variety of content run, and beyond that the only other benefit BB is intended to offer is the massive boost to xp. Even if the TR xp requirements were the same as a first life, people would still run elite BB.

    If I may offer an observation, BB is not what vexes you. With the number of references you've made to "byoh zerging evasionist" types and the behavior of drama causing jerks in general, these are the things that are the issue and as they existed prior to BB, if BB were repealed they would still be around. Finding a better way to deal with or avoid these players will do much more to improve your gaming experience than simply removing or changing Bravery Bonous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by McFlay View Post
    Not a solution. If I need less xp to tr...I'm still going to play the same way. I'm going to elite zerg most content fast as possible just to get free tps from favor each life.
    Good for you dude. And if the stupid streak bonus was gone then those of us who want to play quests on more difficulties than just elite, would like to group, and for whom the game hasn't stopped being an actual team based game and started just being an xp hunting version of Farmville might actually be able to get parties together. The compelling bonus of an elite streak is the reason you can't get anyone to group for almost anything else, as there will always be at least 1 or 2 people in any group who haven't done the quest yet and don't want to break their streak.

    I didn't really see anything in your post explaining how the system is good or how reworking it would be bad... just you saying you zerg and want xp as fast as possible. Reworking the BB system into something that didn't so heavily restrict grouping options in a game sorely deprived of groups for questing would let you go do your thing but would let everyone who isn't just playing TR Farmville actually get groups other than "elite quest+2."

  16. #56
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The two best fixes for bravery bonus would be to 1) cap the streak at 5, removing the psychological issue of breaking massive streaks, and 2) decrement streaks instead of erasing them. Doing this wouldn't hurt the actual BB mechanic but would greatly reduce the stressing about it.
    I would honestly like this only if Turbine refused to do away with BB without implementing some other system into the game to give incentives to run Elite, as one person stated. Though frankly, I feel there's plenty of incentive to run on Elite, and for much of my remaining couple levels on my first life, I was doing lots of repeats and not getting BB so... /shrug.

    No, there aren't classes like that. There are builds and players like that, not classes. Any class icon can be made self-sufficient and zerg-ready.
    Not to get off topic but, the monk class SCREAMS of being tailored like that. Pretty sure that's a significant factor in why you see level 2 monk splashes on many characters these days.

    If you wouldn't find such a support role fun, don't ask others to do similar by asking for balanced parties. That's code for "you heal me so I can have fun."
    I think you make a gross assumption about the people you are arguing with. How do you know Duskofdead isn't playing a Cleric or a Rogue or a similarly support-tailored character rather than another min/maxed generic Monk splash DPS?

    The downside is that it's a non-trivial nerf to the value of being VIP. I've never been VIP and never would, much preferring permanent ownership of content via premium purchases, but I am very much in favor of giving VIPs as many perks as possible to encourage subscriptions so that DDO can keep the lights on. Elite open is a major VIP perk solely because of BB.
    VIP having a passive 10% boost to all EXP given is a significant benefit on its own, but frankly I was somewhat against it. I don't like mechanics that reward me with quicker / easier leveling for paying money. I was quite content to pay for a year of VIP just to receive access to all adventure packs and some additional character slots. Getting 10% exp isn't world shatteringly huge, but I feel it is a step towards the dreaded "Pay to Win" that a lot of people fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    No, there aren't classes like that. There are builds and players like that, not classes. Any class icon can be made self-sufficient and zerg-ready.
    The concept that everyone should need to be just so that their character can possibly play within the artificial restrictions of bravery bonus-only grouping is part of the problem we're discussing.

    I don't want a game where everyone in it is a monk splash direct damage melee or some similar concoction built almost entirely around personal self sufficiency but little to no team utility. The elephant in the room here is that so many people are building characters solely around being able to zerg through content as quickly as possible and get to next life and not for what they'd bring to a team effort, raid, or a quest that required a balanced party. The current version of Bravery Bonus within the context of a game where groups aren't exactly easy to come by merely increases the incentive on playing this way... and it does shut out builds that weren't designed specifically for this kind of play. And no, not all of those builds are bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post

    I actually like the way BB is, aside from the issue I have with it. it provides a little challenge by keeping players in the quest level range closer together instead of having player(s) 3 levels over me clearing a path to the end of the quest and theres not -10% or higher xp loss. BB has also made it so people will go for the elite favor now as a group instead of going back later when theres some down time. its helped cut back on the boring favor grind. the only fix I see that it needs is that players who cant handle elite, should not be doing elite. sometimes, its not just the new players that should wait until they are ready.
    You mean, waiting till they're overlevelled and can solo it, because waiting more than quest+2 means they won't be able to group for that quest. That's what BB does to grouping. Completely de-incentivizes doing it whatsoever for most players unless they're within the range that you yourself here are saying that probably many players shouldn't be attempting it unless they're sufficiently experiences and well geared.

    So you start off pointing out the problem, and then saying but it's fine, they should just wait longer to try it? How does that make sense? They won't be able to get a group for it "later."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    I think you make a gross assumption about the people you are arguing with. How do you know Duskofdead isn't playing a Cleric or a Rogue or a similarly support-tailored character rather than another min/maxed generic Monk splash DPS?
    Because if he were, he wouldn't be complaining about the lack of balanced parties. Him joining a party would balance it.

  20. #60
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    The concept that everyone should need to be just so that their character can possibly play within the artificial restrictions of bravery bonus-only grouping is part of the problem we're discussing.

    I don't want a game where everyone in it is a monk splash direct damage melee or some similar concoction built almost entirely around personal self sufficiency but little to no team utility. The elephant in the room here is that so many people are building characters solely around being able to zerg through content as quickly as possible and get to next life and not for what they'd bring to a team effort, raid, or a quest that required a balanced party. The current version of Bravery Bonus within the context of a game where groups aren't exactly easy to come by merely increases the incentive on playing this way... and it does shut out builds that weren't designed specifically for this kind of play. And no, not all of those builds are bad.
    You think this is because of bb? Sorry but you are wrong. If there was no bb I'd still build toons for high self sufficiency because I recognize that 99.99999% of players don't want to be a nanny bot and heal me. Getting rid of BB would just mean I'd go even faster and not worry about da on hard and normal.

    Seriously BB has absolutely nothing to do with byoh, zerging or any other boogey man that hides in your closet.

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