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  1. #21
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So essentially, you want more XP without actually being challenged or doing anything more for it. Just an XP handout, as I said before.

    /notsigned
    I want to respond to the rest of the thread, but I'm tired. However, I don't want to let this comment slide and watch as it potentially destroys an otherwise civil thread...

    1) This is a gross over-generalization of his statement;
    2) The current system as is is just an XP handout without any challenge.

    I don't see how removing BB+TR Penalties or increasing First Time bonuses is any different than the system we have right now. A skilled player can already farm "free XP without being challenged" because they've done the quest enough times to learn it. I was getting BB on elite Twilight Vale quests, and I consider those, next to some Xoriat quests, to be some of the harder quests I've had to endure. Granted, it was me (12 Bard/6 Fighter), a sorc, and two hirelings, but we were still getting a massive +70% boost to exp because of BB with very little challenge.

    The only people hurt by BB are new players, FTP players, and individuals who don't want to spend time taking on a quest they cannot handle due to reasons that Duskofdead has already mentioned. The people who use and abuse BB to the extreme are not being challenge by it, and they're simply zerging the quests as fast as humanly possible to maximize XP/Hour.

    And at what cost? A poisonous community and a dismal, non-existent grouping system? No thanks. The old system may have been slower, but that's no reason why BB should remain when it's hurt the small community we have here.

    If my solution is unacceptable, I'd be open to others. Frankly, I like the idea of removal of BB along with the TR penalty.
    Last edited by Danemoth; 06-23-2013 at 02:54 AM.

  2. #22
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    I like blade barrier! i mean bravery bonus! For a tr it means a lot less farming for xp.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Since elite offers better drops and better xp in ANY scenario, including since before bravery bonus existed, the concept that it must remain in place or else people have no incentive to run quests on elite is nonsensical.
    It is not through running on Elite that Bravery bonus encourages challenging players. Hard Bravery streak is not too far behind Elite. It is running things at lower level that makes it challenging.

    Honestly, the old style of underlevel bonus did that better. And I would like to see a system that encourages doing so again, rather than Bravery Streaks. But this is something that this proposed system does not do. Rather than increasing first time bonus, it would be better to give a bonus for taking in a group with a lower level range, even under quest level. This would both reward running a variety of quests, encourage players to challenge themselves, and also make it more flexabile as to what content you are able to run.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post
    I like blade barrier! i mean bravery bonus! For a tr it means a lot less farming for xp.
    I haven't seen anyone here disagree that the TR xp curve is a problem. But that would elevate Bravery Bonus into being an arguably bad solution to a bad problem, not the only solution, and I'd certainly disagree that it's a good solution. Anything that actively harms grouping in a game where, even two years ago, groups were relatively difficult to put together, isn't good.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    It is not through running on Elite that Bravery bonus encourages challenging players. Hard Bravery streak is not too far behind Elite. It is running things at lower level that makes it challenging.

    Honestly, the old style of underlevel bonus did that better. And I would like to see a system that encourages doing so again, rather than Bravery Streaks. But this is something that this proposed system does not do. Rather than increasing first time bonus, it would be better to give a bonus for taking in a group with a lower level range, even under quest level. This would both reward running a variety of quests, encourage players to challenge themselves, and also make it more flexabile as to what content you are able to run.
    I am yet to ever see a quest ad up in the group panel on hard for bravery bonus. It's always elite hard farm, if not just elite.

    I don't see this great diversity of options and choices that you're saying the BB system on paper offers. Sure, in theory hard's streak bonus is nearly as good. In practice no one in the grouping panel is pursuing hard streaks and hardly anyone can be bothered for the patience to put together a balanced or even full group for elite, either. It's BYOH, know the quest, elite BB. All day erry day.

  6. #26
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I haven't seen anyone here disagree that the TR xp curve is a problem. But that would elevate Bravery Bonus into being an arguably bad solution to a bad problem, not the only solution, and I'd certainly disagree that it's a good solution. Anything that actively harms grouping in a game where, even two years ago, groups were relatively difficult to put together, isn't good.
    Been playing ddo for a while now(see forums join date).. if the groups dont fill just solo while checking out the lfm panel until you see something you are interested in.. while waiting hit explorers, do some good old s/r/e, or even solo some quests..

    Bravery bonus did not change ddo at all.. if you want to play then PLAY, dont wait around for others so you can have a picture perfect group...
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  7. #27
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    So essentially, you want more XP without actually being challenged or doing anything more for it. Just an XP handout, as I said before.

    /notsigned
    Hmm no I don' t think I said that. I suppose you could see the regular xp reward with less needed for a tr that way. The quests aren't going to be any less difficult then they are now I'd just recieve less xp for them and need less xp from them. Getting more xp for them doesn't make them more challenging neither does needing more xp from them.

  8. #28
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    I am yet to ever see a quest ad up in the group panel on hard for bravery bonus. It's always elite hard farm, if not just elite.

    I don't see this great diversity of options and choices that you're saying the BB system on paper offers. Sure, in theory hard's streak bonus is nearly as good. In practice no one in the grouping panel is pursuing hard streaks and hardly anyone can be bothered for the patience to put together a balanced or even full group for elite, either. It's BYOH, know the quest, elite BB. All day erry day.
    Then put your own lfms up that say normal, new kids welcome no b and b needed..
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  9. #29
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post
    Been playing ddo for a while now(see forums join date).. if the groups dont fill just solo while checking out the lfm panel until you see something you are interested in.. while waiting hit explorers, do some good old s/r/e, or even solo some quests..

    Bravery bonus did not change ddo at all.. if you want to play then PLAY, dont wait around for others so you can have a picture perfect group...
    Quote Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post
    Then put your own lfms up that say normal, new kids welcome no b and b needed..
    It did change the game. It didn't change the players.

  10. #30
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    I have read through this thread, and I see plenty of assertions that BB is responsible for players' rude behavior.
    However, from the examples that were offered, it seems that players are responsible for their own rude behavior, and BB is just one of the windows that reveals it.

    When I first started, I had no trouble getting in a PUG with players running elite BB. They were polite, fun, and helpful, and I was effectively power-leveled due to my lesser need for XP at first life. So, I have a fondness for the BB system, as it provides another way for TR'd toons to help new and other first-life toons run through quests.

    This is a game with choices. BB is one of those choices. Please do NOT take this choice away from those who use it.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    It's fostering an environment of exclusive grouping and difficulty in finding groups, and it's hurting classes who are unable to zerg, ignore traps, or deal with swarms of elite mobs by themselves with no expectation of healing or team support.
    Stop pretending that some classes can't zerg and can't be self sufficient. Self sufficiency and zerging are a player mindset: some people got it, some don't.

    Is it easier to zerg on a wf sorc or on a fvs than on a barbarian? Yes. But good players can zerg and self heal on any toon cause they build them to work well without needing other people to babysit them.
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  12. #32
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    Assuming that the Bravery Bonus mechanic is not going anywhere (and frankly I'm not sure it should), I do believe it should be less restrictive.

    My suggestion is that whatever breaks your streak should instead decrease it by 1 (maximum effective streak is 5). That way we could sacrifice some xp for the ability not to skip difficult quests.

    For example: I can do the first three quests of the Harbinger of Madness on elite with no problem but the forth one is almost always a wipe for me so I tend to skip it entirely. With this suggestion I can do it on hard instead and only lose 10% xp on my next elite quest (because the streak will reduce to 4 from 5). The same thing with the vale quests. Most players will get them on elite at levels 16-18, but very few will successfully finish an elite Shroud at the same levels. A hard Shroud will be doable at level and will also give a nice xp.

    Making the Bravery Bonus mechanic less restrictive will help players do a variety of quests they wouldn't normally do at level and I think that's something that Turbine may benefit from.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix888 View Post
    Assuming that the Bravery Bonus mechanic is not going anywhere (and frankly I'm not sure it should), I do believe it should be less restrictive.

    My suggestion is that whatever breaks your streak should instead decrease it by 1 (maximum effective streak is 5). That way we could sacrifice some xp for the ability not to skip difficult quests.

    For example: I can do the first three quests of the Harbinger of Madness on elite with no problem but the forth one is almost always a wipe for me so I tend to skip it entirely. With this suggestion I can do it on hard instead and only lose 10% xp on my next elite quest (because the streak will reduce to 4 from 5). The same thing with the vale quests. Most players will get them on elite at levels 16-18, but very few will successfully finish an elite Shroud at the same levels. A hard Shroud will be doable at level and will also give a nice xp.

    Making the Bravery Bonus mechanic less restrictive will help players do a variety of quests they wouldn't normally do at level and I think that's something that Turbine may benefit from.
    In the examples you noted, it is easy to get someone overlevel in the party so that BB is suspended. This is the more typical way of dealing with those.
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  14. #34
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    There are only two ways I'm aware of that bravery bonous is more restrictive/lfm discouraging vs the old way:

    1) It promotes keeping groups with-in a 3 level span. Let's use Tear of Drakahn for an example: bringing a level 6 toon into a base lvl 7 quest (effectively lvl 9 on elite) is just a bad idea unless one is throughly prepared for -and familiar with- the challenge ahead. Prior to the BB system, I really only remember people using a 4 level span as the standard, as no one wanted anyone to be too high for the quest (causing xp loss) and no one wanted to be too far below the highest lvl party member (again, causing xp loss).

    2) Streak Breakage. Once a streak is developed, no one wants to break it, so they feel like they can't ever run anything but elite ever again, unless it's the same quest - but that would mean *gasp* repeating content which seems to be becoming almost taboo in some circles.

    Bravery Bonous does nothing to "foster" the byoh/know it/etc crowd. They'll want you to play like them (if you join their groups) regardless of the existence of BB. If you're not joining there groups, they really don't care what you're doing. BB doesn't prevent waiting for a balanced party, wanting to play now instead of waiting around prevents waiting for a balanced party.

    IMO the truth is that people are only restricted by their own standards. I've seen a few people in this thread, and many other people in many other threads, try to claim that this-or-that is the reason they don't see the lfms they're looking for. Well, if you're not putting up lfms then your the main part of the problem. Is your contention really that doing away with BB will automagically create lfms? Lurkers will still lurk, waiting for someone else to start the lfm they want to see; or to restate it: people who don't start lfms now, still won't start them regardless if BB goes away or is replaced by another system.

    As you brushed on but didn't wish to discuss, scaling does far more to discourage grouping than any of the suggested reasons why BB might. Under the current mechanic, the less people = the easier the quest. Reversing that will encourage grouping, and thus likely have a real effect on the lfm panel - especially with BB encouraging Elite questing.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    In the examples you noted, it is easy to get someone overlevel in the party so that BB is suspended. This is the more typical way of dealing with those.
    Generally speaking you are of course correct, however, you should take into acount the problems with your method.
    Elite In the Flesh is a level 17 quest. In order to not breaking my streak I will require a level 18 toon to join me. If I do that not only will I not get any bravery bonus I will also suffer a -10% xp penalty due to the level range. Combine it with the length of the quest and you'll see that the xp/min isn't worth the trouble. Moreover, this method makes me dependent on the goodwill of high level toon, toons which won't benefit much from helping me. They will get little xp (we can assume that the first time bonus won't even be relevant for them) and it won't be considered a favor run since it's not elite.
    Regarding the Shroud, this scenario is more common, however, over-level Shroud groups tend to be for loot and not for xp. These groups will offer little to no xp because the level range will be to high. I guess you could imagine an xp hard Shroud which accepts only level 16-19 toons but I don't see much of those on the LFMs.

  16. #36
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    The Bravery Streak Bonusses are fine as they are.

    The problem is that new players with first life characters are being fooled into thinking that an Elite streak is compulsory, so they end up joining a party the they are not experienced, built or equipped to handle. The grief that they then get when they die just discourages them.

    You could fix both problems at the same time.

    First life: No loss of bravery bonus when doing normal or hard. No XP loss for party if a first lifer dies.
    Second life: No loss of bravery bonus when doing hard. 5% XP loss for party if a second lifer dies, same as a hireling.

    I do like the idea that your streak bonus is reduced if you break it rather than being completely wiped, but maybe it should reduce by 20% rather than just 10% so it takes 2 steps backwards instead of just one.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix888 View Post
    Generally speaking you are of course correct, however, you should take into acount the problems with your method.
    Elite In the Flesh is a level 17 quest. In order to not breaking my streak I will require a level 18 toon to join me. If I do that not only will I not get any bravery bonus I will also suffer a -10% xp penalty due to the level range. Combine it with the length of the quest and you'll see that the xp/min isn't worth the trouble. Moreover, this method makes me dependent on the goodwill of high level toon, toons which won't benefit much from helping me. They will get little xp (we can assume that the first time bonus won't even be relevant for them) and it won't be considered a favor run since it's not elite.
    Regarding the Shroud, this scenario is more common, however, over-level Shroud groups tend to be for loot and not for xp. These groups will offer little to no xp because the level range will be to high. I guess you could imagine an xp hard Shroud which accepts only level 16-19 toons but I don't see much of those on the LFMs.
    The -10% for being level 18 in an (adjusted) Hard 16, is still a net + 30%(first time hard bonous is 40%). Why are we assuming this is irrelevant?

    How are you dependent on the higher level toon for anything other than prevention of streak breakage? Unless you plan on them carrying you through -which seems doubtful as they're only one level over you- you're really not at their mercy.

    As for the xp/min, if that's your primary concern you're probably not pugging anyway, and especially not a quest like In the Flesh.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix888 View Post
    Generally speaking you are of course correct, however, you should take into acount the problems with your method.
    Elite In the Flesh is a level 17 quest. In order to not breaking my streak I will require a level 18 toon to join me. If I do that not only will I not get any bravery bonus I will also suffer a -10% xp penalty due to the level range.
    You don't get a 10% penalty having an 18 in a 17 quest. You would only get that if you had a 19 in with you.

    The only quest in that chain worth worrying about from an xp/min point of view is Missing, and then only if you can split up and multi-task.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The -10% for being level 18 in an (adjusted) Hard 16, is still a net + 30%(first time hard bonous is 40%). Why are we assuming this is irrelevant?

    How are you dependent on the higher level toon for anything other than prevention of streak breakage? Unless you plan on them carrying you through -which seems doubtful as they're only one level over you- you're really not at their mercy.

    As for the xp/min, if that's your primary concern you're probably not pugging anyway, and especially not a quest like In the Flesh.
    Ok I'll try and rephrase. +30% is indeed relevant but perhaps it's not enough. I would like to get some sort of BB on every quest I do but I can't because some are too difficult at level (and that's ok, challenge is good). I think it would be nice to let us gain part of this bonus by allowing us to do the quest on hard instead of elite without resetting our steak, otherwise the quest might be skipped. When there is a shortage of quests of certain level (like level 15) I try to do them all, regardless of the xp/min. I don't want to skip quests when I basically need every one of them in order to get enough xp to gain my next level. Not everyone likes doing the same quest over and over.

    Most quests I solo and those I can't I pug instead. I think it can be very frustrating to open an LFM and wait for someone of a very specific level to join me and help me not break my streak. I don't think that person has a lot of incentive to join, especially if he/she's done this quest before and won't get the first time bonus for it. I may not care that much for xp/min but people who do will not join my group. Sure, someone might eventually join after an hour of waiting but until they do the regular at-level pugs won't be enough and I wouldn't be able to do the quest (without resetting my streak which is unacceptable). In that sense I'm dependent on the high level toon and his/hers will to join.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The Bravery Streak Bonusses are fine as they are.

    The problem is that new players with first life characters are being fooled into thinking that an Elite streak is compulsory, so they end up joining a party the they are not experienced, built or equipped to handle. The grief that they then get when they die just discourages them.
    this is one of the bigger problems. heroic elite BB has become the standard and what you see most times on the lfm. new players really shouldn't be running BB because they don't have the gear and experience and some vet players will reform, kick, blacklist, grief or something if the new/inexperienced player in the group dies or becomes a burden in the group. its not really their fault for trying to play and wanting to group with others. ive seen many many many times this kind of thing happen.

    the biggest issue I have with BB is the elite version. forget hard. we use BB for different reasons, but its primarily used for the extra xp. generally, with DS the way it is, elite might at best be a little challenging to an experienced player depending on quest and level. to new players and inexperienced, it can be very challenging. to have 1 inexperienced player in an elite group of 5 other experienced players, probably not going to have too many issues. to have 5 inexperienced players and 1 experienced player in a group, things could go down hill fast. the group cant handle elite very well, but they wont give up their streak and will try again another time, but maybe with more experienced players to help complete.

    I actually like the way BB is, aside from the issue I have with it. it provides a little challenge by keeping players in the quest level range closer together instead of having player(s) 3 levels over me clearing a path to the end of the quest and theres not -10% or higher xp loss. BB has also made it so people will go for the elite favor now as a group instead of going back later when theres some down time. its helped cut back on the boring favor grind. the only fix I see that it needs is that players who cant handle elite, should not be doing elite. sometimes, its not just the new players that should wait until they are ready.

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