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  1. #281
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    People are either not understanding the complaint correctly, or are misinterpreting it for the purposes of argument... saying "of absolutely all the reasons out there that grouping is tough in this game, BB is not the one causing all of those" is either misunderstanding the issue or sidestepping it.
    Um... What?

    I'm hoping I had a reading fail, please let me know I did.

    Is your position really that:
    A) Bravery Bonus has caused & is the source of all the issues that have made pugging (grouping through the lfm panel) difficult?

    B) Modifying or abolishing (I believe you would prefer the latter?) Bravery Bonus will suddenly cause the lfm panel to spring to life?

    Please tell me I misunderstood...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  2. #282
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The idea of decrementing instead of erasing streaks really only works if the streaks themselves are capped at 5. So after running 100 elites for bravery, you have a 5 streak for both hard and elite. Run the next quest hard and you have a 5 hard 4 elite streak. Run the next one normal and now you have 4 hard 3 elite.

    The nice bonus to this mechanic is that it's much easier psychologically to "break" a 5-streak down to 4 than it is to erase a 100-streak down to 0.
    While I'd rather see the Streaks done away with and BB replaced with something similar that doesn't have any psychological problems associated with it, this would at least be a nice bandaid.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    o.O Then apparently you should read the thread, including the Original Post.
    My original post suggested keeping a different form of BB and abolishing Bravery Streaks altogether. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I want to be rid of it. I'd rather see BB in a different form than it is currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Remember a 13 joining a level 10 quest (elite =12) used to be commonplace, in fact a 14 was common on elite... Not any more it used to be that quests were run in a much wider arc of levels below and above. TR's especially would milk the plentiful lower level quests by taking levels only when absolutely necessary. These days it is downright unheard of for a 13 to be in a 10th level quest, because this eliminates everyone elses BB bonus XP (but not their streak)

    So you've literally never seen an LFM you would have joined but for breaking your BB streak? OR breaking the groups BB streak? Or if BB isn't important to you, ones you've observed that WOULD break the streak of someone who cares about it? That's kind of amazing as I see groups like that often. Now I break my streak because having something to do with other players is more important to me than XP... but I didn't used to. I used to say to myself "well that's a shame too bad they aren't running it on Elite..."

    Then there's also LFM's that wont BREAK my streak but wont give a bonus either (someone 3 levels over base is in the group)... I also avoided many of these in the last year as well.

    Not any more, as the pug scene is dieing so fast after prime time that being slightly picky means there's nothing to do but go solo IP and maybe one other person joins you...

    Now lets also talk about how many times a night I see LFM's that wont take me because I'm one under level, yes "at level" is a rarer exclusion but that also does happen, usually only for stuff like "In the Flesh" that is prone to wiping at the end (love that chain). But it's a nightly occurrence for me to see LFM's I qualify for (one under level) but the star has put at level or 2 higher as their range. Occasionally a polite tell will get me in. Usually I am ignored unless I tell them I'm a healer, which I rarely bother to do (I'm not going to beg and the fact that they are afraid enough of taking a 15 into a 16th level quest is a fair sign that I don't want to be there myself)

    Sure you can't "fix" nsomeones preference, but true solo'ers don't much matter to the pug scene, they weren't a part of it before and they wont be in the future. Personally I suspect a lot of solo'ers would prefer to group but I can't prove it. IMO a lot of the "the game just seems dead because everyone prefers to solo" is just counter intuitive to me. People who prefer to play alone play amazing single player RPG's, not clunky payment filled artificial barrier filled amusement park atmosphere MMO's.. Solo'ing in MMO's is usually all about players who only have a little time to commit, or who don't find a group right away and only have an hour, so they go IP and leave an LFM up for company, or personal challenge, and what have you.... there are many reasons people solo in MMO's but the most basic fundamental design element of MMO's is "massively multiplayer" and I suspect the majority of people are after at least some social interaction if not all the time, then a majority of the time.

    I think a lot of increased solo'ing is a result of decreased groups to join... just my theory, and against the conventional wizdom in these threads for sure, but there it is.

    Widening level ranges, making BB more LFM friendly, making the LFM UI better, removing the pre-knowledge requirements (teleport to quest, auto share) while they wont add players to the game (though they might help keep some) would smooth the LFM "friction" out and make for more LFM's in every level range (obviously if you make every 10-12 range quest a 9-12 you're including a bunch of 9's that might have been looking at an empty LFM range... More highlighted LFM's in your range = more feeling of a lively game = less motivation to go somewhere else.
    This was very well said. Have some rep. :3

  3. #283
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Um... What?

    I'm hoping I had a reading fail, please let me know I did.

    Is your position really that:
    A) Bravery Bonus has caused & is the source of all the issues that have made pugging (grouping through the lfm panel) difficult?

    B) Modifying or abolishing (I believe you would prefer the latter?) Bravery Bonus will suddenly cause the lfm panel to spring to life?

    Please tell me I misunderstood...
    I wouldn't presume to speak for someone else, but I find it obnoxious that you would present a false dichotomy and not actually respond to what's been discussed by the person for 15 pages. Because nothing Duskofdead has said is represented by either A or B.

    Just a thought.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Um... What?

    I'm hoping I had a reading fail, please let me know I did.

    Is your position really that:
    A) Bravery Bonus has caused & is the source of all the issues that have made pugging (grouping through the lfm panel) difficult?

    B) Modifying or abolishing (I believe you would prefer the latter?) Bravery Bonus will suddenly cause the lfm panel to spring to life?

    Please tell me I misunderstood...
    Yes, you've read incorrectly, and since you've done so for this many pages now I have to conclude we're either incapable of understanding each other in this language or that you're intentionally not really reading what I post.

    In simplest possible terms, BB system takes a game where grouping is already quite challenging and gives such a strong incentive for doing it only in a 2 level window that everyone ONLY wants to do it that way, yet you may not either be able to get a) a well rounded enough party or b) enough people together for a rougher quest when what you have to work with is only a 2 level window.

    Adding additional and narrower gates to grouping in a game where grouping is difficult hurts grouping, makes more people give up on trying, and turns attempts to group into excessively long waits where people give up and futilely try to solo or lowball things and waste their time, or just give up and come back and solo the quest for favor later on.

    At this point someone who can't understand this point is just ignoring it. The SOLE on topic argument offered WHATSOEVER thus far in the thread against this point is people saying "well you could fill the party with people UNDER level", but since that tends to detract from successful quest completion, it rings hollow as a counterargument.

  5. #285
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Yes, you've read incorrectly, and since you've done so for this many pages now I have to conclude we're either incapable of understanding each other in this language or that you're intentionally not really reading what I post.

    In simplest possible terms, BB system takes a game where grouping is already quite challenging and gives such a strong incentive for doing it only in a 2 level window that everyone ONLY wants to do it that way, yet you may not either be able to get a) a well rounded enough party or b) enough people together for a rougher quest when what you have to work with is only a 2 level window.

    Adding additional and narrower gates to grouping in a game where grouping is difficult hurts grouping, makes more people give up on trying, and turns attempts to group into excessively long waits where people give up and futilely try to solo or lowball things and waste their time, or just give up and come back and solo the quest for favor later on.

    At this point someone who can't understand this point is just ignoring it. The SOLE on topic argument offered WHATSOEVER thus far in the thread against this point is people saying "well you could fill the party with people UNDER level", but since that tends to detract from successful quest completion, it rings hollow as a counterargument.
    Yet you ignore and don't understand that for every case where the above is true, you have someone like me that posts groups for some elites instead of solo farming normals and hards. This means the situation creates a neutral effect.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    People against the BB are arguing both sides of this issue. On the one hand, they argue that there are no LFMs for normal & hard because of BB, while on the other hand they argue that BB limits grouping because people won't join LFMs that would break their streak. Do those streak-breaking LFMs exist or not?
    Post a Hard LFM for one of the popular quests and count how many "I'll join if it's E","Come over to my party, we'll be running that on E for BB", "Stoopid, do 'leet or no1 wll run w ya." and similar tells you get before filling.


    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    •The Bravery Bonous Streak has a negative effect on pugging.
    I've yet to see anything put forward to really show this.
    A couple months ago, I was running a first life monkcher, level 15ish I think, I had elite streak of about 10 and saw an LFM for a quest that I wanted to run but it was on hard and I haven't ran that one before. So instead of joining that I went to do N/H on some quest I ran on elite the day before. When I was done I saw the LFM was still there and then I realized "D'oh. It's 1st life, I don't _need_ a streak at all." so I joined the last free spot and we started soon afterwards.
    There you have it. In last 6 months there was at least one party that was delayed by about 10 minutes due to BB. That's conclusive evidence that BB reduces pugging by at least 1/36 pughours/month; if that's not negative effect, I don't know what is.


    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The power-leveling penalty hard caps the level range to 4, btw.
    Does it? It's news to me, always thought it's 75% for 5 levels, 99% for 6 levels, infinite% for 7 or more levels...


    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Um... What?

    I'm hoping I had a reading fail, please let me know I did.
    Yeah.
    As far as I get it, Duskofdead's actual position is:
    "Removing/changing BB will improve pugging."
    Last edited by MindCakes; 06-28-2013 at 02:22 PM.

  7. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    Does it? It's news to me, always thought it's 75% for 5 levels, 99% for 6 levels, infinite% for 7 or more levels...
    I stand corrected.

    Are you suggesting that the 50% penalty for a 4-level split is acceptable for players in a way that sacrificing bravery is not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    If you cut down what you can look for as far as who's online from 4 people of x class/role in a 3 level range
    That's your real problem, and it won't be helped by expanding the bravery range from 3 levels to 4 levels. Powerleveling makes a 5-level range not workable, so the only question is 3 levels or 4 levels.

    It's your self-imposed "I need this particular role" that vastly limits your grouping ability, not the minor level-range issue of 3 levels compared to 4 levels.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    My original post suggested keeping a different form of BB and abolishing Bravery Streaks altogether. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I want to be rid of it. I'd rather see BB in a different form than it is currently.
    Here is a reminder from the post in question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    The best solution in my opinion, is one that is less restrictive. My idea is simple, and removes the potential for people to be nasty towards one another: Increase "first time" bonuses across all difficulties. This would mean you would benefit from running a quest above level (even if you received a penalty for being too high), are not impacted for running a quest on Normal instead of Elite, and you cannot have any sort of streak ruined by another player.

    My suggested values would be:
    -First time Casual/Normal: 35% (up from 25%)
    -First time Hard: 60% (up from 40%)
    -First time Elite: 120% (up from 80%)

    This would effectively roll the Bravery Bonus into the base First Time completion, reward a player for running on multiple difficulties (which helps FTP players, something that would keep them in the game and potentially keep them buying small purchases here or there or consider upgrading...), would help with the insane TR curve (which I hear they're changing anyways), remove the potential for griefing and drama, and allow a player to benefit from increased EXP from all quests regardless of their level in relation to it or not.
    I really have no idea how an argument could be made that this 'keeps a different from of Bravery Bonus'. In your own words, it 'would effectively roll the Bravery Bonus into the base First Time completion', thereby removing any element of Bravery Bonus and just handing out massive First Time Completion bonuses.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Yes, you've read incorrectly, and since you've done so for this many pages now I have to conclude we're either incapable of understanding each other in this language or that you're intentionally not really reading what I post.
    I really do not think that it is a matter of people not understanding what you are saying. It is a matter of many people not believing that what you are claiming is true. And stating reasons supporting why what you say is incorrect. And then you saying it again, regardless.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-28-2013 at 04:21 PM.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
    Adding additional and narrower gates to grouping in a game where grouping is difficult hurts grouping, makes more people give up on trying, and turns attempts to group into excessively long waits where people give up and futilely try to solo or lowball things and waste their time, or just give up and come back and solo the quest for favor later on.
    This is the heart of the logic failure behind the argument against bravery bonus.

    Your premise is that narrower groups are bad for the game (2 lvl range v.s. 3).
    Your solution is to encourage grouping at 3 different difficulty levels instead of just primarily elite.

    Your solution is a contradiction with your premise. Having most groups at one difficulty level means that the majority of players are not divided among three different difficulty levels. By making normal/hard more frequently posted, you LOWER the odds of someone finding the group they want.

    If narrow groups are bad for the game, then having a default difficulty helps (by herding everyone towards a single difficulty).

    If narrow groups divided up by difficulty are NOT bad for the game, then why are 2 level range groups worse for the game than 3 level range groups?

    Which half of your arguments are you going to jettison?

  10. #290
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    Logic? In Forum? Perish the thought.

    I'm still not getting the fixation on the mythical 2-level spread limit for elite BB. Every LFM I post limits level from Base to Base+2, which is a 3-level spread. I can even set it as Base-1 to Base+2 if I want a wider spread without provoking power-leveling penalties. Either way, these limits are determined by the party leader, not by the BB mechanic.

    I, for one, do not believe the OP's premise to be true; therefore, his conclusion cannot be true.
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