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  1. #1
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    Default On Being Human: Kindness, Productivity, and Gratefulness

    Preface: I'm not here to convince or argue anything with anyone. I probably won't follow this thread or even post replies. This is more a reminder for those of you who already instinctively understand this stuff.

    I'm a lurker here. I read the dev posts (and the resultant threads) pretty much daily for fun. I just wanted to point out, from a outside perspective, how toxic the community gets sometimes. Maybe it's not easy to notice or recognize, especially when you're not saying this stuff directly to another human being, but it's all over the place.

    My guess is that a lot of game designers/companies don't really know how to handle it at this point.

    I also play another large MMO, where I raid lead; I watch that game's forums as well, and it also happens there; just way more here. As a community, we get pretty awful with DDO's developers.

    You guys know, the reality is that designing games takes time and money. Those are both limited resources. Imagine these guys are a group of your buddies, down the road, trying to work up a D&D game for you to play. You can bring money into the equation, and use it as justification for being unproductively cruel, but the truth is your friends want to eat and they want to be able to provide shelter for their families and all that stuff...while working on a game they probably consider their hobby.

    Treat them like real people; like your neighbors, or your friends, that don't always get everything right. If you avoid making them feel horrible about admitting mistakes, they'll be more likely to admit them; even if it's, "We probably should have done that better, but it's too late now because we don't have the development time to correct it."

    Realize that development time is very limited. They don't avoid fixing bugs because they don't care; it's just that it's either new features, or existing features. It's about priority. If we all start spending $100+/month, they'll probably be able to do more, but when many of us are coasting on $0-$15/mo, and the player base isn't incredibly huge, someone, somewhere has to be realistic.

    Realize these are human beings making the game. Realize that you only get so loud in your condemnation because you really do feel attached to this game. Be human (or your race of choice) on the internet.

    ---

    Just to provide our perspective: I play this game pretty much on the side, but that doesn't stop my partner and I from loving DDO as much as we do! It's the only game we've found that allows us to duo tons of challenging content in this super cooperative way that we just love. We run a party of four-six (two hirelings, and now the owlbears at 15-25). Currently playing artificer and a druid/monk/rogue splash (so one of us can spot, and the other can disable; makes traps fun for us both).

    We're on TR1 lives, and currently VIPs atm (so we can decide what packs we'll pick up when the sub ends; we have like 160k TPs ready to spend when it wears off), doing every quest on Elite, from 1-20; we're banking xp as much as possible, but it's going slow since we're getting too high to get most of our bravery bonuses now (usually 0-1 levels over). We're only focusing on a single character each (to avoid having to upgrade bank space on multiple toons). We're planning to do as much of completionist as possible (an amazing idea that completely makes DDO in my head), but I'll probably go Artificer 10 on each of my lives with everything just so I can keep playing the same concept.

    I really enjoy this game. It's not my only game. Things aren't perfect here. Sometimes the bugs can be very frustrating (esp when they break quests), but it is what it is, and I'd be sad if DDO was over, or didn't exist in the first place.

    I'm glad to share this hobby with the developers and my fellow players. For the developers, just keep it interesting; realize that I won't always agree with you guys. For the players, please realize that it's a ton of work, and spend your money wisely; only purchase what you're likely to enjoy and you'll find it's easier to be grateful for the game you play.

    And for everyone, remember that it's often passion that leads to toxic behavior. Developers, understand the people who are the worst offenders, often care tremendously about what you're doing. Players, stop before you hit that nasty post, and realize you can share your passion and energy without getting dirty or mean. You guys are on the same side here. Good luck!
    Last edited by LilyOphelia; 06-21-2013 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Well said

    +1

  3. #3
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    /signed
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  4. #4
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    snip to avoid wall of text crit
    While I do think we should remain civil and try to avoid personal insults to the devs, we also have, well maybe not a right, but the ability to speak our minds about any changes or game direction.

    If I was making a game I would 100% want to hear what players had to say about the changes I might be making or that players might want. This doesn't mean that they'd all be implemented as some may be bad for balance, or contradict other suggestions. The problem is that what the dev's say and what we get here have been very different. This is what's causing the "toxic" atmosphere you noticed.

    The best example is the dev's last year said that epic destiny xp would stay thru any tr, once you get it, it's yours forever. Now I'm willing to allow that they were speaking of heroic tr only, since that's what existed at that point. However the epic tr / heroic tr changes that they proposed directly change that to where they want to wipe all ed xp on heroic tr. This obviously makes what they said last year a lie.

    If someone lies to you in person it makes you angry and having it done on a forum makes people no less angry. People are venting that anger. It should be noticed that this is just the most recent example. I agree people should stay within the bounds of civility but there is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing your anger with being lied to, it just has to stay within acceptable bounds.

    When people try to make it where you can't express your anger, they are participating in a dysfunctional group dynamic very similar to one that occurs in cases of emotional domestic abuse (I'm lumping partner/child dynamics into one here). It's that kind of thinking that tends to escalate problems as when you get someone that isn't emotionally damaged by that behavior in real life, getting treated that way on a forum, you get what I would call toxic anger spilling over. This is where you get forumites going on toxic rants on other forumites calling them fanboi's.

    The best advice I'd give is to keep it civil and do not try to condemn others because they are unhappy/angry about something that's going on. The condemnation you put on someone that's unhappy about game changes just makes the toxicity grow one thousandfold.

  5. #5
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    I have never said that I hated the devs or wished ill upon them. Most people that know anything about this game would know that the Devs are undermanned and have crazy deadlines that they must meet.

    I personally am not so upset at the devs, it is at “the man”. The one that demands content be released before it is even tested. The one that puts the game on live when they know it is full of bugs and exploits. (Yeah, they know they are there but have no time to go back and fix them). I am upset with the person that puts customer service to the side. The person that alienates their customers. I have no problem if they want to cater to the people that are throwing a ton of money into the game, but if they alienate those that do not spend as much (or nothing), those whales will not log in. They will have no one to group with and no one to show their pets off too.

    In other threads I have seen things that really make me wonder. Does Turbine not care if the vets leave? Do they think that the new faces will stick around and spend, so what does it matter what the vets think? If this is their direction, Well played. If this is the case, then we might as well not even post. What we have to say is obviously something that they are not concerned about. It is just sad that after years of being loyal to the game, Turbine treats people the way they do.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  6. #6
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I personally am not so upset at the devs, it is at “the man”. The one that demands...
    Realizing that the developers (and most likely customer support, and all other branches of the business) are not as staffed as they'd like to be, because revenue is always going to be limited...do you think maybe these are just flawed, imperfect human beings like you and me trying to do (what they believe is) their best with the game.

    I imagine some of them are getting divorced, some of them are fighting with their teen children, and others are being told they may not have jobs somewhere down the line due to the ever-present spectre of downsizing; some have bosses (or employees) they probably hate. Not everyone is waking up, free of stress, when they show up at work. They make decisions every day, and some of those are going to be different from what we'd decide. It's really easy when you remove the human element from "them;" it makes it super easy to be a bully towards a faceless enemy.

    Ultimately everyone is (more or less) who they choose to be. I definitely don't seek to control anyone's thinking here. I just know sometimes when I get a little crazy, I appreciate someone tapping me on the shoulder; to have someone sane say, "You know, maybe you might want to think about what you're doing. Is it making you happy?"

    A lot of times, I realize, that yeah, I'm getting all worked up and super passionate over something...and it's not really the huge deal I'm making it out to be. I realize that I can accept things as they are, and love them; or I can walk away from a bad situation as well.

    But constantly threatening and yelling at people? The biggest reason I don't do that is because it's hard for me to be happy when I'm acting that way, and why in the world would I want to set myself up for anything but good times?

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    Thank you for such a thoughtful post. I couldn't agree more. I have derived tremendous pleasure from this game.

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    I'd just like to remind the OP that the real adult world is a harsh place. It is a world of perpetual conflict, competition and the pursuit of self-interest. Consumers in developed Western countries, who had seen rising improvements in quality of life standards, are for the first time in generations seeing an erosion of those standards.

    Once clued into the bigger picture of the cause and effect behind this decline, one may come to an understanding as to why they are so angry that their quality of life is being degraded in order to enrich the faceless, unaccountable, reptilian profit making machines that have come to dominate our societies.

    Only those who haven't yet been fully exposed to that world would be so naively complicit in their own exploitation as to apologise or give a free pass to the lowest level stooges of that money machine. When dealing with these entities, don't make the mistake of treating them as human beings with human emotions.

    Remember, there are whole industries out there that have been refining the art of how to make you think and feel the way they want you to for countless generations. The entirety of popular culture is a demonstration of this, to program people to be complicit consumers.

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  10. #10
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Well said, Lily. Devs are people, too.



    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    And there are those that can never be happy.
    I don't wanna be happy! You can't make me!
    There is no free lunch.

  11. #11
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default Always remember: With ETR nothing is fixed yet!

    We got a first announcement. I am sure the devs have got the storm brewing in the forums after the announcement. And I am very positive that they are already working on a solution to keep us loyal player and fan base happy. Let´s wait for LAM beta before we start our sh*t-storm.

    By the way, with enchancement pass this just worked fine - there is a complete rework!

  12. #12
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    Realizing that the developers (and most likely customer support, and all other branches of the business) are not as staffed as they'd like to be, because revenue is always going to be limited...do you think maybe these are just flawed, imperfect human beings like you and me trying to do (what they believe is) their best with the game.

    I imagine some of them are getting divorced, some of them are fighting with their teen children, and others are being told they may not have jobs somewhere down the line due to the ever-present spectre of downsizing; some have bosses (or employees) they probably hate. Not everyone is waking up, free of stress, when they show up at work. They make decisions every day, and some of those are going to be different from what we'd decide. It's really easy when you remove the human element from "them;" it makes it super easy to be a bully towards a faceless enemy.

    Ultimately everyone is (more or less) who they choose to be. I definitely don't seek to control anyone's thinking here. I just know sometimes when I get a little crazy, I appreciate someone tapping me on the shoulder; to have someone sane say, "You know, maybe you might want to think about what you're doing. Is it making you happy?"

    A lot of times, I realize, that yeah, I'm getting all worked up and super passionate over something...and it's not really the huge deal I'm making it out to be. I realize that I can accept things as they are, and love them; or I can walk away from a bad situation as well.

    But constantly threatening and yelling at people? The biggest reason I don't do that is because it's hard for me to be happy when I'm acting that way, and why in the world would I want to set myself up for anything but good times?
    I completely understand that Turbine staff have just as much stress and real life obligations as you and I. If I am not mistaken, Maj was open with many things that are keeping his real life busy. I completely understand this and I know that he does not need any extra grief coming from us. As I said, my anger is not at Maj or any certain employ.

    As I have said before, I paid 15/month for 5 years. Over the last year or so of that, I noticed the quality going down. But it is more than quality. The bait/switch that I harp on. That is not the point of this post, but it is understandable why people quit trusting Turbine.

    It was not Cordovan that decided to use these crappy forums. But, he has to deal with them. I am sure that Feather was given fifty dollars and told to make U19 with it. What could he do but go back and clear ED’s? I am sure it was not his choice and he would love to be able to put out 15 quests and 2 raids, but “the man” refuses to reinvest in the game.

    Back on topic, every job now is doing more with less. This does not give people the right to threaten Turbine, but there is merit behind their frustrations. I personally know of a few Turbine employees that are not happy with what has been going on. What are they to do? If they say anything to “the man” they would join the 12.4% unemployment rate.

    I am sure any Turbine underling that reads this would completely agree. They wish that the powers that be would invest the otto box money back into the game and hire some help. But that money is already earmarked for WB corporate jets and vacations in Hawaii.

    I do not write anything like this to be an internet tough guy. I just really love this game and wish the powers that be would get their heads out of their *** .
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

    LEGION

  13. #13
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    Realizing that the developers (and most likely customer support, and all other branches of the business) are not as staffed as they'd like to be, because revenue is always going to be limited...do you think maybe these are just flawed, imperfect human beings like you and me trying to do (what they believe is) their best with the game.
    I agree with this, and yet;

    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    I'd just like to remind the OP that the real adult world is a harsh place. It is a world of perpetual conflict, competition and the pursuit of self-interest. Consumers in developed Western countries, who had seen rising improvements in quality of life standards, are for the first time in generations seeing an erosion of those standards.
    I also agree with this.

    My world is not so simple and either or black and white, polarized for easy cut and dried judgmental proclamations.

    In my world without "evil" Industry we would be living in tribal communities, I would need to trade what I have to get necessities I don't have, needed to survive.

    The human abstraction of consumerism is merely a reflection of primitive necessity with more and more luxury as we evolve it.

    Without work there is no money, without money no motivation to make products (including food grown in large enough quantities to feed more than just the farmers family) without products there is no need for labor, without labor we are trading my hunting/gathering for your hunting/gathering and probably murdering each other when it becomes "my family has to eat and I had a bad hunting trip so my options are club you and take your or let my kids starve".

    Evil corporate machines, exist some less evil than others to be Sure, so do billions of small business that employ people and care about them within reason. Thats billions of jobs that literally keep us from bare survival mode.

    You see when you leave the basement nest, you get "harsh awakening" and jaded, you are no longer naive, but you're not seeing the true big picture either. Then you have kids and the rest of the puzzle falls in place. Operating my own business really adds,to the panorama view... teens who think they're doing me a favor showing up an hour late, who feel entitled to their job because they do it semi competently... who think the boss is swimming in money. I was that teen myself once. Evil corporations make a small number of over drive over ambitious single minded rich guy types very rich (while many of them completely miss what matters in life, ignore their family and rake money in until they die and their ungrateful kids inherit it, and live a sheltered spoiled thankless life ) but those same corporations/business help keep us all out of the weeds.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-22-2013 at 11:18 AM.

  14. #14
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    I see more toxicity in the posts against those who are expressing dissatisfaction then I see in the posts of the dissatisfied. There is more cruelty aimed at players from players then players to devs or Turbine employees. Most posts to the employees are a breath of sunshine in comparison.

  15. #15
    Community Member Tuffmann's Avatar
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    i payed my $15 a month since 2006 plus $100 here $100 for there dbl TP pt specials + expansion packs...

    2nd account as well

    I'm well into it for over 3k spread out over last 7 years.

    I know people that spent alot more then I have on this game over the years.
    There are plenty that spend what I have in a single year time.

    They and I have ever right to be angry and upset when they produce poor quality content.
    Have every right to express those feelings to them

    Also to show them that I no longer support there decisions.
    The direction the game is going.

    I haven't spent anything on the game for nearly 6 months
    and have no intentions of spending any of my $ in the future.

    that around a loss of $250 to them as i figure i was spending about 500 a year

    And while $250 is not even a drop in the bucket to them

    there are hundreds that feel the same way that I do possibly thousands
    that where spending good money on a game they enjoyed and no longer are not.


    I did not create this bad feeling between us. I was a happy customer for years.
    They created this enviroment of hostility and dissatisfaction.
    and only they can fix it... not us.
    Last edited by Tuffmann; 06-22-2013 at 12:04 PM.
    Aceita - 22 life Monk Completionist -

  16. #16
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    @OP

    These threads are always so precious. They remind me so much of the time I stumbled onto the Hello Kitty Online forums, replete with touching haiku and various shades of pink (everywhere!).

    The fact is that DDO is a business, and most of us expect that it to be run as a business.

    Most businesses actually run fairly smoothly, as least from a customer perspective. Perhaps I just live in some utopia, but my mail gets delivered (in the mailbox, not tossed onto the ground), my garbage gets picked up, and my telephone and electricity work 24/7. When I venture out to the grocery store, the shelves are stocked, none of the food for sale is rotten, the cashier is efficient and friendly, and the person who bags my grocery thanks me for shopping there.

    My expectations of how the world works is shaped by those experiences, and I have to admit that, although a lot of what I just described is deemed to be fairly mundane stuff by people living in developed countries, the end result is fairly pleasing.

    I have also trekked through enough places like India to know that it is not a universal experience.

    The fact is, the DDO experience has devolved to the point that it is much more reminiscent of what I would expect from a Third World business than what I would expect to receive from a business in a developed country.

    People have every right to complain about this degradation of the customer experience. I occasionally see someone going a bit over the line, but that is a relatively rare occurrence, When I see it, I mainly attribute it to people understanding the great extent to which the people who work on this game completely over estimate their abilities. After all, when you see developers post things like

    1) I am really good at my job and
    2) Trust us. We are experts. We live and breathe this stuff.

    and then see them make incredibly ridiculous blunders, you do start to understand the root cause of so much of what is plaguing this game.

    If you want to go hug a developer, by all means, go do so. Don't for one minute, however, believe that you are doing anything positive to improve the quality of the game. If anything, you are simply reinforcing the attitudes which are destroying the game you purport to love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I completely understand that Turbine staff have just as much stress and real life obligations as you and I. If I am not mistaken, Maj was open with many things that are keeping his real life busy.
    I freely admit, I don't care about the real life concerns of the staff working on DDO, anymore than I care about the life of the person who picks up my garbage. That is not part of a business/customer relationship.

    The reality is that the little personal tidbits that MajMal tosses out are nothing but cynical ploys meant to curry favor with the customer base. It is completely unprofessional to use an official post (he is using his employee account, which makes it an official post) to discuss your personal life. If you can really be played so easily, you have my condolences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I personally know of a few Turbine employees that are not happy with what has been going on. ?*What are they to do? ?*If they say anything to “the man” they would join the 12.4% unemployment rate. ?*
    All this talk about "the man" sounds like a bad 70's TV drama. There is no need to abstract blame out to some mythical creation, when you have the cause of the failure right in front of you. The economic populism that fuels your kind of rhetoric does nothing to help anyone understand what is really shaping the world, but does allow those who fail the luxury of having someone else to blame.

    Condolences on apparently living someplace where the unemployment rate is 12.4%. Unless it is Boston, it really doesn't apply to this conversation.

    Any competent employee working on DDO would be well advised to get out. They are simply tarnishing their reputation by working on the product, and will likely regret having wasted years of their life in the endeavor.

    Of course, most of the Turbine employees know exactly what they are doing, and are more than willing to be complicit in it. Some people are willing to do anything for money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    I see more toxicity in the posts against those who are expressing dissatisfaction then I see in the posts of the dissatisfied. There is more cruelty aimed at players from players then players to devs or Turbine employees. Most posts to the employees are a breath of sunshine in comparison.
    I really can't blame those customers who choose to attack the people who candidly discuss what is happening to the game. They are likely either emotionally or psychologically dependent upon the game, and the truth is more than they are capable of handling at the moment. If anyone in this equation deserves compassion, it is those who have been so expertly played by Turbine.
    Last edited by GermanicusMaximus; 06-22-2013 at 12:50 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member extraocular's Avatar
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    An example of how not to handle PR that happened not long ago, can you guess what it is?


    THE XBOX ONE reveal.

    Some takeaways.

    If you announce something people do not like, it can go two ways.

    1. The rage will die down over time, as the vocal minority wear themselves out.
    Keep your mouths shut, do not add fuel to the fire, wait for it to burn itself out.
    This strategy seems to work most of the time.

    2. You have a **** storm on your hands, the two edged sword of social media has been turned against you by your very own customers. The rage is not dying out, you need to engage your customers and start a dialog. Vagueness can be harmful at this stage because as with silence people will assume the worst.

    It appears that the modus operandi of turbines (ddo) PR team is to rely too heavily on silence, unwittingly confirming peoples concerns and the notion that turbine does not listen.

  18. #18
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    Yep. the Devs are people. Most likely overworked, underpaid, close-to-permanent-crunch, but people nonetheless.

    Thing about people, having been in just that position a time or two, albeit not on the scale of an MMO: They aren't mind-readers, they aren't perfect, and I highly doubt they like hearing folks dislike the outcome of something they just put months into *after* they've already sweated it out, instead of when it was rough enough to toss before you got too attached to it if the fundamental idea is bad for your target market, or tweak if the notions OK, but the details are off. That is not the type of thing helped by soft-padding or beating around the bush.

    /ironically goes back to lurking, since the job 'schedule' has been kicking his rear lately.

  19. #19
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    I freely admit, I don't care about the real life concerns of the staff working on DDO, anymore than I care about the life of the person who picks up my garbage. That is not part of a business/customer relationship.

    The reality is that the little personal tidbits that MajMal tosses out are nothing but cynical ploys meant to curry favor with the customer base. It is completely unprofessional to use an official post (he is using his employee account, which makes it an official post) to discuss your personal life. If you can really be played so easily, you have my condolences..
    I agree with you 100%. If people at Turbine feel threatened by me at least, then they are very naïve. I am sure that none of their lives are any more stressful than half of America. I was simply trying to be politically correct.

    Anyone that has ever worked in customer service should know that if you treat the customers like garbage, the customers will give you garbage.

    Has anyone here ever received terrible customer service (restaurant, grocery, anywhere) and ever asked to speak to a manager? Did you speak of your displeasure and have the manager make it right? Or at least try too? Then you are in same boat as I. Only I am still waiting for a manager to respond. I am waiting to hear if it is worth my time giving. I am wondering if I am spending on a sinking ship. When Turbine can be trusted and they start to address the customers concerns, then you might see less people wanting answers.

    Is trading tp codes against the ToS? You will not get a direct answer (depends on the day and who you talk to) because they turn a blind eye to things. Customers are getting really tired of being shunned to the side and just want answers. “Sorry I cannot help you, is there anything else I can help you with today” and being told half-truths is not a way to run a business.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

    LEGION

  20. #20
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuffmann View Post
    I did not create this bad feeling between us. I was a happy customer for years.
    They created this enviroment of hostility and dissatisfaction.
    and only they can fix it... not us.
    Trying to justify the hostility by proclaiming how much you've spent on the game, or by trying to point fingers elsewhere, is pointless and doesn't actually get anyone anywhere. It doesn't matter who started it (How many times have we heard THAT in our short lives?), what matters is that it needs to end. Now.

    Be the mature individual.

    We're not going to get anywhere by being endlessly hostile and trying to blame one another. To paraphrase a quote, the cycle of hatred (In this case, hostility) won't stop until someone breaks it.

    Anyone that has ever worked in customer service should know that if you treat the customers like garbage, the customers will give you garbage.
    Anyone that has ever worked in customer service should know that if the customer treats the employees like garbage, the employees will give you garbage.

    Respect is a two-way street, sir.

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