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  1. #21
    Community Member Tuffmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    Trying to justify the hostility by proclaiming how much you've spent on the game, or by trying to point fingers elsewhere, is pointless and doesn't actually get anyone anywhere. It doesn't matter who started it (How many times have we heard THAT in our short lives?), what matters is that it needs to end. Now.

    Be the mature individual.

    We're not going to get anywhere by being endlessly hostile and trying to blame one another. To paraphrase a quote, the cycle of hatred (In this case, hostility) won't stop until someone breaks it.
    what are you talking about?

    We are not in a personal relationship with turbine....(are you some kind of delusional freak that thinks they are?)

    They are a business! we are customers!

    Customers that pay for a product/service and expect quality product/service in return for those payments.

    yes I blame them for not providing that quality product/service...

    yes it makes me very dissatisfied.

    Its there job to make me satisfied if they want me to go back to being a paying customer.

    It will stop once they start providing that quality product/service...

    When i pay for a product/service

    I want and expect results

    I don't want excuses

    Just like most normal people that pay for a product/service from any other business...
    Last edited by Tuffmann; 06-22-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Danemoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuffmann View Post
    Customers that pay for a product/service and expect quality product/service in return for those payments.
    I think it's incredibly foolish for a customer to continue paying for something they're dissatisfied about. It's not sensible behaviour in any regard.

    Its there job to make me satisfied if they want me to go back to being a paying customer.
    The reality in any business or line of work is that you cannot satisfy everyone.

    It will stop once they start providing that quality product/service...
    I don't understand why there is an entitlement about having a right to be hostile to them. You paid money and got a service at the time, but if I understand your wording correctly, you're no longer paying for the game. Yet you maintain an air of entitlement like it's your right to get angry instead of trying to be constructive. I'm pretty sure a dev said in a post earlier this week that saying "It sucks" won't get anywhere, where as "It sucks because of..." will.

    Of course, it's little wonder why the devs have been locking overly hostile threads to begin with.

    Being a customer (past or present) doesn't give you the right to be hostile and borderline abusive to an employee of any company in any setting. If you did that to a cashier, chances are you'll be thrown out for acting like that. The way some people on this forum act to the Turbine employees is very much like an irate old man that didn't get 30 cents off his carton of milk and has to make all the employees as miserable as he is by yelling at them.

    That wouldn't be tolerated in a store, and frankly I'm impressed that it's tolerated here as much as it is.

  3. #23
    Community Member Tuffmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post

    The reality in any business or line of work is that you cannot satisfy everyone.
    Thanks for pointing that out captain obvious....

    And the reality in any business that when your long standing loyal paying customers turn on you
    and are no longer paying customers
    have nothing good to say about the company (you know the whole word of mouth thing)


    kick them out there stores for complaining

    they will no longer be a business....




    abusive? lol wow dude there something wrong with you. i don't see anyone being abusive towards turbines employess.....
    Voiceing ones disatisfaction is not being abusive.......
    Last edited by Tuffmann; 06-22-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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  4. #24
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    I notice that some people are getting defensive. I never really pointed out anyone in particular. If you feel like you have to defend yourself because of what I wrote, maybe it might be worthwhile to ponder on why my words had an effect on you.

    I just wanted to pop in and actively listen, without arguing. If we have wildly different beliefs on something, it's unlikely we're going to change each other's minds. But I can still listen to you without attacking you, or defending my own point of view.

    It seems like some people feel lied to by the developers. It feels like they've been promised something that hasn't been delivered. I can understand how dissappointing that must feel. For example, I'm really excited about the Arcanotechnician tree for Artificer with the new enhancement pass, because it just seems to fit me so much! I would probably feel pretty sad if it didn't make it in for some reason. So yeah, I can completely see how someone could say something, like "this is what we're planning," and then when they change those plans, it might feel like you've been lied to or misled.

    Some people think that my kind of thinking is naive or sheltered. I can completely understand the judgement. I've actually been pretty lost for much of my life. Angry, argumentative, unhappy, unable to resolve conflicts easily. I actually came to realize that, without being grateful for the very specific things I do have, it's hard for me to be happy. And no, I'm not like super religious or anything. Just a very grateful human being.

    Someone also mentioned consumerism and capitalism, which is a realy big subject to get involved in. I do believe that a lot of problems in our society come from the money system. I can also see that there are a lot of people invested in the money system too, and I understand why they'd be very defensive of it. But big subject, probably very off-topic. ^^

    And it's funny, Ironclan, how you mention shifting perspectives. How you use to be that teen, who couldn't see what the boss (now you) was going through. It seems like a lot of times we tend to just see our own perspectives on things. I catch myself all the time, thinking that my version of reality or the truth is everyone's version of things. Sometimes the most clear moments are those times when I realize that everyone else has their own unique angle on things. Makes right and wrong a lot harder to pin down (for me at least).

    And as far as toxic on toxic behavior, Orratti, I don't think I was personally unkind anywhere, so that's probably aimed at other posters in other threads. I think you have a whole lot of confused people arguing and getting frustrated when they aren't easily convincing each other of things. That frustration, mixed with a whole lot of passion for a viewpoint, tends to cause some of that behavior.

    I've come to believe that it's really, really hard to change people's beliefs. I've been that person, arguing longer and harder, and throwing my hands up in frustration when "they" just don't get it.

    Someone mentioned that they've paid a lot into the DDO system; invested a lot of money. I have put quite a bit of money into DDO as well. Between my partner and I, we have ~$300 spent on DDO. I completely understand where you're coming from. My biggest fear, actually, is that like DDO will end before I'm done playing it and getting my money's worth out of the game!

    One thing I personally do (which you seem to have done as well), is stop paying/playing for things when I don't need or want them anymore. I think you have the right approach. Minimize your investment for now, until you're sure the game is going to keep working out for you. I don't think everyone is unhappy with DDO, but if enough people are, money is almost always the best way to express that.

    Actually, I'd kind of get this sort of dirty giggle out of the whole F2P DDO model. I mean, you don't have to technically ever pay them again. That's kind of empowering (but maybe I'm just stretching here).

    And then there is Germanic. I actually think cute things can be pretty special. But the meat of what you're saying, I think, is that DDO is a business and you want a really distanced, impersonal relationship with them. You want them to produce and deliver content that's up to your standards; that if they want your money, they need to meet certain benchmarks. From what I read, it seems you're really upset about where DDO is atm.
    What keeps you from moving onto a different game? I don't mean that in a, "Leave if you're unhappy way," but I do know that in the real world, if you get unhappy with your garbage disposal company or your grocery store, you usually just find a different place to spend your money.

    I've tried complaining to different businesses when I was unhappy about something. Sometimes, they were able to make changes for me. Other times, they just held fast, and said, "This is the way it is." It's actually pretty bad because I live in a semi-rural area, and a lot of times there's limited choice in my garbage company, or shopping, or whatever. That's the worst, when you kind of just have to accept this is what's available in my area, you know?

    But if I personally had a choice (and luckily, I definitely do with my MMOs), I'd always just shift to the place that made me the happiest. Incidentally, that's why DDO is among my top 3 currently; and is actually my favorite right this second, because (and not in spite of) of all the new changes. I kind of feel like I should apologize for that! :P

    But, you did say that people weren't really able to handle themselves with the game, because they're emotionally and psychologically dependant on it; that's a really interesting discussion to have, I think. I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on that.

    And Vint, I think you're right. I can't tell you how many bad customer service experiences I've had. Angry people abusing their power to tell me "no" over and over again. I'm pretty persistent when I want something from customer service. I know how nasty those conversations can get sometimes.

    I'm actually not here to defend Turbine, suprisingly enough. I actually just posted because I saw a lot of people making themselves really unhappy. I've been reading this stuff for months now, and I just felt compelled to pop in and say, pretty much:

    You know, you could be happier. You're probably not seeing every side to the conversations we all have on these forums. It's really unlikely you're going to change people's minds when they feel strongly about something (including me changing anyone's mind in this thread). For your own emotional health, to have as many good days as you can in this life, you might want to reign in the toxicity. The thing about poison is that it affects you too, and why would you want to make yourself sick (even if that just translates into an angry day over an issue).

    There are definitely things to get angry about. I personally believe there are things worth dying for. Just for me, DDO isn't one of those things. I am far too grateful to squander my time or my life engaging in an activity that makes me miserable. This entire thread is an excercise in loving people (especially those who disagree with me), and I feel much happier for having heard and understood you; versus the anger and frustration I would have felt if I were trying to change you all.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danemoth View Post
    [...] the cycle of hatred [...]

    Anyone that has ever worked in customer service should know that if the customer treats the employees like garbage, the employees will give you garbage.

    Respect is a two-way street, sir.
    What is this, I don't even.
    Barring the extreme scenarios, the party that's getting paid should step down. That's why we call it acting professionally.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    But the meat of what you're saying, I think, is that DDO is a business and you want a really distanced, impersonal relationship with them.
    The reality is that I do have a distanced, impersonal relationship with them. That is hardly unusual. Almost everyone who is a customer of DDO has a distanced, impersonal relationship with Turbine and its employees. The only exceptions would be people who know Turbine employees in real life, who hang out with them, and share other real life experiences with them.

    The sad reality is that one of the things Turbine tries to "sell" to its customers is the belief that Turbine employees are their friends. I suspect that a lot of the people playing this game lead a rather lonely life. The fact that Turbine is willing to exploit that loneliness is one of the aspects of this game which I find most troubling. Before I happened upon this game, I never would have believed that so many people could be convinced that someone who is paid to interact with them is indeed their friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    From what I read, it seems you're really upset about where DDO is atm.
    What keeps you from moving onto a different game? I don't mean that in a, "Leave if you're unhappy way," but I do know that in the real world, if you get unhappy with your garbage disposal company or your grocery store, you usually just find a different place to spend your money.
    I really am not upset with DDO. Being upset with a game is a fruitless experience.

    I used to enjoy the game a great deal, and play it a fair amount. I do believe that the change in game direction with MotU did ruin the game experience for a fairly large number of people, myself included. That does seem to be reflected in the steadily declining number of people playing the game.

    Although I only sporadically play the game now, I do enjoy the forums immensely, for a number of reasons. If you check my posting history, you'll see that I write about why from time to time.

  7. #27
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    I'm actually not here to defend Turbine, suprisingly enough. I actually just posted because I saw a lot of people making themselves really unhappy. I've been reading this stuff for months now, and I just felt compelled to pop in and say, pretty much:

    You know, you could be happier. You're probably not seeing every side to the conversations we all have on these forums. It's really unlikely you're going to change people's minds when they feel strongly about something (including me changing anyone's mind in this thread). For your own emotional health, to have as many good days as you can in this life, you might want to reign in the toxicity. The thing about poison is that it affects you too, and why would you want to make yourself sick (even if that just translates into an angry day over an issue).

    There are definitely things to get angry about. I personally believe there are things worth dying for. Just for me, DDO isn't one of those things. I am far too grateful to squander my time or my life engaging in an activity that makes me miserable. This entire thread is an excercise in loving people (especially those who disagree with me), and I feel much happier for having heard and understood you; versus the anger and frustration I would have felt if I were trying to change you all.
    Maybe my voice is a little too loud at times, but it is almost as though it is provoked. One argument I see all the time is that if I do not spend, how will the game get better? Another is how some fanboi’s defend Turbine no matter the issue.

    As you most definitely know by now, my biggest concern is the bait/switch. These same fanboi’s will agree with Turbine on it. How is it right to sell something and then go back on your word and do the opposite? Completely understand that they have the right per the ToS, but who would continue to donate money if this is the type of business that they run? This is when you see me get angry. When the Turbine spokesmen (fanboi’s) come out and defend Turbine tooth and nail.

    I could use analogies or long sentences to beat the dead horse, but this is the biggest problem. Turbine apparently listens to the very few fanboi’s on the forums and that is why this game is in the state that it is in. Heaven forbid an exec actually read this forum some day and only see the kisses and hugs that the fanboi’s write. I won’t be that lemming that writes what they want to see. I will write the truth. If you look closely at most of posts, you will see that I question the fanboi’s more than I do Turbine. Turbine can run it however they like, but how the Hell can a fanboi defend half the things they do?

    /rant off

    To be honest I only really play on the forums to waste time at work or while waiting on the wife at home. I could list all the things in this world that make me happy and describe to you that I am a good guy, but I am not that internet guy that will type just to boost my ego. It is just so sad to see what Turbine has come too.

    P.S. Tuffman is a nice guy usually.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilyOphelia View Post
    as far as toxic on toxic behavior, Orratti, I don't think I was personally unkind anywhere, so that's probably aimed at other posters in other threads. I think you have a whole lot of confused people arguing and getting frustrated when they aren't easily convincing each other of things. That frustration, mixed with a whole lot of passion for a viewpoint, tends to cause some of that behavior.
    No it wasn't pointed at you. Anyone that deals with internet interactions can't possibly expect to be treated with respect. I'm sure the employees of Turbine are little more than slightly irritated and possibly even amused by the ravings of their customers. I doubt they are seeking therapy or crying themselves to sleep over it.

    As far as my own irritation with turbine this little qoute from Germanicus in another thread has finally laid those to rest.

    Actually, in most retail businesses, people price shop big ticket items enough that they have a fairly low profit margin. Low cost, impulse purchases have big fat profit margins because they are cheap enough that most people just buy it. Couple that with the fact that they are consumables which need to be purchased often, and you have the paradox that low cost items generate a lot of the profits for retail businesses.

    You see I've been irritated over and over again by the way they have treated their vip customers being that I was one. Releasing new classes with the intention they be bought due to being "unable" at this juncture to include the favor needed to unlock them. Releasing the lastest not recycled content as "expansions" instead of updates. Those things in addition to just not generally be able to be held to what they have said in the past just made me wonder what they were thinking even though it had kind of been said over and over already.

    It seems to have turned out to be that subscriptions and selling content aren't as profitable as simply churning players over and over through content and selling them pots, bypasses, and hearts of wood and that is now the intended revenue model. I had always thought of the store as being a side money maker selling "convenience" items and subs and content sales to be the main source of revenue. It didn't click until the quote above in the same day as learning that the main source of profit for the grocery store was actually bananas.
    Last edited by Orratti; 07-16-2014 at 03:52 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member Zillee's Avatar
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    +1 to OP.

    While I don't believe that Turbine employees are crying themselves to sleep over comments from the player base, I just find the current atmosphere of the General Discussion forum to often be unpleasant enough that I no longer lurk for long in here, but instead head over to read about different builds and so on in other parts of the forum.

    This is of course just my perspective. I'm the sort of person who disengages from a discussion if it turns into aggression or personal insults. I'm all for discussion, for questioning decisions, for making complaints if things go wrong, for debating ideas and proposals. Feedback is essential - but its the tone in which it sometimes is written that I find, for want of a better word, disappointing.

    One of the reasons I decided to make DDO my main online hobby three years ago was the community here. It felt like a good place to be, to spend my free time. I took a look at another game's forum recently, wondering if I should try it out and the frankly horrible way that players treat each other on those boards put me off downloading the game.

    I understand that people get angry about changes. I understand that when something breaks its annoying. Especially when time and money has been invested into a game. But it's getting to the point now that when I see particular players have replied to a thread, I'll skip over their post because I'm now associate them with being insulting, sarcastic or aggressive in their tone. That's a shame as they may be making excellent points. But hey-ho.

    Will that bother those players, that I'm not reading their vitriol? Probably not. But this is what I'm doing to keep the DDO forums enjoyable for me.

    Just giving my perspective.

  10. #30
    Founder adamkatt's Avatar
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    You said you have a partner, so whats your business?
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  11. #31
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    I think this thread is kind of winding down some. I wanted to say thank you to everyone who chose to read or get involved with it. I'm particularly grateful for some of the responses this thread received from people who have a totally different viewpoint from me.

    Mind, I get what you're saying about the customer vs. provider relationship (even if it wasn't directed at me). I understand where you're coming from.

    Germanic, I'd like to think that we all have the ability to make friends. After reading your couple of posts here, I feel like I know you (at least your views) better than I would have just skimming over your words in a long, angry thread. I'm really very sorry to hear that DDO isn't making you as happy anymore; I hope they come around and make some changes in the future that will reignite the obvious passion you once had for the game!

    Vint, I get what you're saying. You don't want to lie to people about your feelings just to keep the peace. I actually like hearing when people don't like certain things about the game, because a lot of times I don't realize how a change might impact me further down the road. Like the new enhancements...I had no clue why anyone would want more than 3 class trees until people started explaining and talking about it. It was easiest to read/listen to the people who focused on why changes were good and bad, and not the people who were just being really, really angry. I'm always grateful to hear why people diasgree with things, because then I get a chance to let that impact how I think...that's actually the best way to change my mind about something.

    Orratti, I understand what you're saying about the nickel-and-diming, especially of existing, VIP customers. It actually surprises me how many people do pay for all that little stuff; I personally never spend money on anything I can earn in-game, and I'm so hesitant about spending any extra cash on non-essential things. But it does seem like Turbine has really moved to the cash shop as it's primary source of income (and probably because they're making way more from it versus subscriptions).

    I'm guilty of grabbing owlbears (because it makes duo'ing, and aggro-management, lots easier), but it's a constant battle to remind myself that I don't really need a lot of the stuff they try to sell.

    And Zillee, your post was close how I feel too. After being a raid leader for close 5-6 years, and dealing with countless numbers of people (because people always come and go), I'm at the point where I just really want to log on and play and interact with people in a low-drama environment. I love connecting with people, but I also like when it's a relatively pleasant to do so. Thanks for sharing your view on all this.

    And Adam, my partner is a wonderful fellow gamer, and our business is life and the pursuit of fun and happiness.

    Thanks again to everyone for getting involved. I thought it was awesome to see how you guys shared about yourselves here; the later posts really calmed down a bit, and just about everyone shared more intimately and honestly about where they were coming from and who they were. I'm grateful for being able to listen to you, and I'm actually hopeful I'll meet many of you in-game down the road. ^^

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zillee View Post
    One of the reasons I decided to make DDO my main online hobby three years ago was the community here. It felt like a good place to be, to spend my free time.
    This is the biggest reason why a lot of players have stuck around this long, and also part of why a lot of people are so vocally critical on the forums.

    I've got a lot of friends here, some of whom have become friends outside of the game. I feel close to my guildies and I'll fight for the playground we're sharing. That's at odds with my personal and financial stake in the game; I've been dissatisfied with the direction of the game, particularly the attention to quality and the rapid changes that negate all the effort on my toons.

    Change is a given in MMOs, but building something on a foundation just to see that foundation radically shifted (whether we're talking about EDs, epic leveling, or shifting mechanics) is an easy way to make players lose interest. Why bother investing time and effort in anything that could be useless or reset suddenly? That shatters the individual illusions that this is a worthwhile endeavor. And that illusion is what keeps us here.

    So while I'm not investing my money in the game right now, it's still worth expressing my disapproval of this decision or that one in the hopes that the direction will improve. That means my friends stay. And if my friends stay, I feel invested again, and I would consider reopening my wallet. But I'm extremely hesitant at this point; there's no sense in paying for passage on what feels like a sinking ship.

  13. #33
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    I'd just like to remind the OP that the real adult world is a harsh place.
    That is a condescending statement, and frankly, mature adults know how to communicate without being insulting or ridiculous. This fact alone makes me believe that after posting a statement like the one above, you may not be qualified to speak on the "adult world".

    The bottom line is that player input is necessary, and nobody is arguing that, but the original poster is 100% right that this community is filled with wretched, negative, and frankly, moronic people, who do not know how to give suggestions in a constructive, intelligent, or calm way.

    Well I'm not sure the OP said all that, but I sure am.

  14. #34
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Turbine apparently listens to the very few fanboi’s on the forums and that is why this game is in the state...
    Your trolling bores me.

    If nobody is listening to you, it may not be because of "fanbois"...

  15. #35
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    That is a condescending statement, and frankly, mature adults know how to communicate without being insulting or ridiculous. This fact alone makes me believe that after posting a statement like the one above, you may not be qualified to speak on the "adult world".

    The bottom line is that player input is necessary, and nobody is arguing that, but the original poster is 100% right that this community is filled with wretched, negative, and frankly, moronic people, who do not know how to give suggestions in a constructive, intelligent, or calm way.

    Well I'm not sure the OP said all that, but I sure am.
    Again, it's not my place to tell anyone how to communicate. I'm definitely not defending any person (including myself) or Turbine. But this post above is actually a great example of exactly what I'm talking about. I actually really appreciate that you put it up for us.

    The post above won't accomplish anything at all the way it's written. The person it's directed at is just going to feel attacked and defensive. They'll probably (if they even see it) lash back, with something meant to retaliate. There might be some nasty back-and-forth, but...

    It couldn't have made you feel good to write it. Powerful? Sure, it makes us feel strong to beat other people up. But ultimately you're just embracing the negativity and making yourself feel worse. Your entire attitude ends up being darker and more toxic. You end up being crueler than you mean to be; it carries over into the game, into life, into your interaction with friends and family. It's not at all good for you or anyone else around you.

    Instead, I find it helps to acknowledge what the other person is trying to say. That post you replied to was kind of calling me naive, which is fine. I don't believe that I'm naive, so I told them that; explained things, and it was pretty much over.

    Could they have made a nicer post to begin with? Sure! But I'm not going to make anything better by responding to them with anger or frustration. It probably made their day to know that I actually listened to them, even though they were having a hard time expressing their thoughts in a positive way.

    And your response? I believe you're really just trying to say, "You know, things are a little crappy around here lately. People are kind of being jerks. We do have to tell the devs what we think, but people are choosing to do it in a really sucky way." What you wrote wasn't the nicest way to say what you're trying to say, but I completely get what you're communicating.

    Thank you for chiming in!
    Last edited by LilyOphelia; 06-24-2013 at 04:29 AM.

  16. #36
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    OP, your outpouring of civility and patience make me cranky!

    Rar!

    "Gratefulness" is an awkward word! Use gratitude instead!

    /grumble and sneer

    ....damn punks....off my lawn....

  17. #37
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    That is a condescending statement, and frankly, mature adults know how to communicate without being insulting or ridiculous.
    .

    this community is filled with wretched, negative, and frankly, moronic people

    Hmm?

  18. #38
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    OP, I think your intentions are really sweet and it's nice to hear from people who are still shocked by the negativity on the forums.

    Once, like you, I thought it was just terrible the things people said about the game and the developers. Just flat out mean and cruel comments that seemed to be unprovoked. But, over time, I have seen and felt the transformation myself.

    Suppose for just a moment, that you played a game (D&D) or some other game you reallly enjoyed. In real life.

    And you loved playing the game. However your DM almost never spoke to you like a person. You got a minimum of instruction, very little positive feedback and the occasional reprimand. But you loved the game and the other players, so you keep showing up.

    Then the DM changes the rules and refuses to discuss why. It seems arbitrary and cruel. Things that were fun have been taken away and new rules are introduced without any advance notice.

    You and your friends complain but the DM smiles and acts like he can't hear you. The game goes on and you still enjoy it so you stay, but you start to get a little resentful.

    Your DM suddenly, out of the blue, is friendly and offers to listen to your suggestions! You are overjoyed, it seems everything is going to be better and you can feel like a part of the game again instead of a pawn. You and your friends offer some great suggestions, at least they sound good to you. The DM nods and smiles but never implements any of the changes. Worse still, he refuses to discuss with you why he can't/won't implement your suggestions. It's like he's not even there, although he keeps the game going, you can do nothing to change his regular responses.

    Until, out of the blue, he changes the rules again. You are given a short list of the new rules that are incomplete. Some of the changes don't work like they say they ought to. You and the other players complain, but still he sits there, silent, like none of you exist or matter. He just goes on with business as usual.

    Some of your friends leave. Some drift off, unhappy but helpless to make a positive impact, they just stop showing up. Other friends get mad and yell in the DM's face. He pays no attention, other than the occasional reprimand.

    The people who are left still want to play, but get more disillusioned every time the rules change.

    New people join who enthusiastically offer suggestions and helpful thoughts to improve the game. It makes you and your friends laugh, knowing that the DM will ignore their idealistic enthusiasm just as he has ignored you for years.

    Pretty soon, the players make a game out of taunting the DM, just to see if they can get a response. He shows no emotion. Occasionally, he reprimands or bans a player who goes over the edge, but for the most part he just doesn't seem to care. He continues to change the rules, asking for input from time to time but never responding to it. He never explains why he makes his changes or what he hopes to achieve with the changes, he just does it.

    The players who are miserable do not affect him. The players who are committed and accepting do not affect him. He looks like a person, but he only communicates when he feels like it and he almost never responds.

    The players find themselves getting more and more cutting, more derisive, and less sympathetic. Why would they feel sympathy for an entity that has no feelings? They phrase their objections in the strongest words possible, trying to get the DM's attention. They would never speak to a real person that way, but everyone is pretty sure by now that the DM is just an autonomous golem with no feelings anyway. They throw garbage on it, see how far they can push it before it bans them from the game. But they can never prove that it cares a bit for them or their enjoyment of the game.

    That's what has happened here.

    One-way communication escalates over time into a very extreme form of screaming, because the frustration is overwhelming and no one is really listening anyway. You can stay or you can go, the DM doesn't care. You can accept the changes or you can walk away. What you cannot do is have any sort of dialog or be given any understanding of why things are being changed.

    The occasional spurt of information makes everyone hopeful, willing to forgive the cold shoulder of the past, but it never lasts long and is never quite enough to really include players.

    Are there some extremely nasty posters on here? Yes. They are probably nasty wherever they go. And they are everywhere. Good moderation can handle that. But they don't. The rules are applied arbitrarily, and mostly when someone complains. I've handled and cut off forum trolls for years but around here they get fed and pampered.

    But then you have people who hung in for the longest time and really tried to be helpful and understanding, but got tired of being ignored and ambushed and quite honestly, lied to. The omission of information about upcoming changes is a lie, especially when players are asked to pay for things without full disclosure that game mechanics are being significantly changed.

    It is an ugly atmosphere, but one that has been created by Turbine, who decided to deal with it by making the forum nearly impossible to use. It's working.
    A PUG is like a box of chocolates
    Get people to read your post.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    I see more toxicity in the posts against those who are expressing dissatisfaction then I see in the posts of the dissatisfied. There is more cruelty aimed at players from players then players to devs or Turbine employees. Most posts to the employees are a breath of sunshine in comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    That is a condescending statement, and frankly, mature adults know how to communicate without being insulting or ridiculous. This fact alone makes me believe that after posting a statement like the one above, you may not be qualified to speak on the "adult world".

    The bottom line is that player input is necessary, and nobody is arguing that, but the original poster is 100% right that this community is filled with wretched, negative, and frankly, moronic people, who do not know how to give suggestions in a constructive, intelligent, or calm way.

    Well I'm not sure the OP said all that, but I sure am.
    Orratti, it does appear he was simply trying to assist you in making the point you outlined in your prior post.

  20. #40
    Community Member LilyOphelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    OP, I think your intentions are really sweet and it's nice to hear from people who are still shocked by the negativity on the forums.
    I wanted to say thank you! Your post was actually really well-written. It told me your story and your history with Turbine in a really productive way; it was really easy to see where you're coming from, and it was a total pleasure to be able to listen to you.

    I don't have lots of time atm (in my hour or two each morning), because I'm working on a new RP static group, and also putting up some of my DDO quest notes, but I did read it all and I can understand what you're saying.

    Basically you want to have this great communication with Turbine, and you feel like they pretend to listen, but they don't really care. You believe a lot of times people get angry or disruptive because they're just trying to get a reaction from the company. I think you were also trying to clue me in on things as well, and I appreciate that!

    Again, I'm so not here to defend Turbine. Just trying to be a good listener, and to remind people that they ought to have their own best interests at heart; with their fellow gamers next, and maybe developers last. Being super toxic is only going to end up making the posters themselves, and their fellow-forum-readers sick.

    On the other hand, I believe that stating/sharing/explaining your opinions/wants in a non-argumentative-desperate-hateful way is a really great thing.

    I am filled with gratitude that you shared your history with me! (See what I did there droid327)!

    With all of that said, I'm very involved with my new Static RP project (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/419133-Cry-of-Luna-Heavy-RP-Static-%28Mon-10PM-1AM-PST%29 if anyone is interested). I don't have a lot of time to respond in this thread anymore, and I wish you all much luck and fun and joy in game and in your lives! *hugs*
    Last edited by LilyOphelia; 06-25-2013 at 05:03 PM.

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