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  1. #21
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Same goes for cannith quests, which give around 12k with tome of learning and bb.
    Yeah, I forgot them. I do not play them very often, except for looting certain items. Guess why?

  2. #22
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Yeah, I forgot them. I do not play them very often, except for looting certain items. Guess why?
    One optional in blow to bits I think gives around 600 xp, rusty optional in snitch gives more and its lvl 7 quest on elite.

  3. #23
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    Yes, all quests should have reasonable XP when run at level. Turbine has done poorly in assigning XP to heroic quests for quite some time now. I'm willing to say that all of the base XP awarded on level 16-20 quests since the Devils Battlefield pack was introduced has been pathetic for the difficulty and length involved. Nobody really cared when the level cap was 20, since you could coast to 20 just flagging Shroud and then raiding with 20s until you capped. Now the old end game raids don't do anything for you, so the dismal reward for difficulty is revealed. I'd like to see the base XP for Amrath, Cannith, and IP quests doubled at a minimum. We know that Turbine can just flip a switch and do this. We saw it with the challenges.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    We know that Turbine can just flip a switch and do this. We saw it with the challenges.
    You clearly don't know how switches work, they only go one way. My house is wired with turbine made light switches and I have to re-wire the whole house every time i want to turn the lights back on. ;-D

  5. #25
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    Yes, all quests should have reasonable XP when run at level. Turbine has done poorly in assigning XP to heroic quests for quite some time now. I'm willing to say that all of the base XP awarded on level 16-20 quests since the Devils Battlefield pack was introduced has been pathetic for the difficulty and length involved. Nobody really cared when the level cap was 20, since you could coast to 20 just flagging Shroud and then raiding with 20s until you capped. Now the old end game raids don't do anything for you, so the dismal reward for difficulty is revealed. I'd like to see the base XP for Amrath, Cannith, and IP quests doubled at a minimum. We know that Turbine can just flip a switch and do this. We saw it with the challenges.
    the more popular reasons with a tinfoil hat twist added-

    to slow the leveling process down which would...

    give us more to do at around cap

    devs didn't understand know how to make xp=reward

    increase the grind to boost store sales

    cator to xp/min players (IQ and island)

    devs may be able to adjust challenge xp, but adjusting quest xp which is what most players run while leveling, can cause a ripple affect with the xp needed to fulfill leveling requirements. it makes sense to me that devs probably look at xp on a level by level basis before adding more quests to that level range. adding more quests in the level 5 range wouldn't make sense since there is more than enough xp to level, other than for more variety. it would seem devs are taking notice to our rants about difficulties in certain level ranges to level as they have now released new mid level quests. I think that goes hand in hand with the up coming Iconic release and starting at level 15, but its not like making 15 a starting point, like level 1, would be difficult to level with quests that can be run from level 7 on elite and up that are untouched. adjusting quest xp shouldn't just be for certain quests because of the ripple effect. it really should be across the board, but changes are coming anyways and it will be interesting how all that works out. it seems like a good change so far.

  6. #26
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    I think the most important things have been said often enough:

    1. Adjust XP mainly for the high level quests that are rarely run to match the effort required better.
    2. Nerf dungeon scaling. Don't change difficulty for full groups just make the scaling a lot less. Something like change scaling effect to a quarter/third/half for elite/hard/normal compared to now.

  7. #27
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    Yes, all quests should have reasonable XP when run at level. Turbine has done poorly in assigning XP to heroic quests for quite some time now. I'm willing to say that all of the base XP awarded on level 16-20 quests since the Devils Battlefield pack was introduced has been pathetic for the difficulty and length involved. Nobody really cared when the level cap was 20, since you could coast to 20 just flagging Shroud and then raiding with 20s until you capped. Now the old end game raids don't do anything for you, so the dismal reward for difficulty is revealed. I'd like to see the base XP for Amrath, Cannith, and IP quests doubled at a minimum. We know that Turbine can just flip a switch and do this. We saw it with the challenges.
    Actually these 2-3 new f2p quests are good xp, also lord of dust chain gives good xp which shows they can give good xp to quests.

  8. #28
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    Tomb of the Shadow Knight Level 8

    Normal, no pots, no bravery, just a solo artificer with a lesser tome.

    Slay 791
    Disable 1980
    Disable 5940
    Saly 791
    Slay 791

    XP awarded 8485

    Total for 29 minutes of SOLO Normal.
    18778 xp

    So, yeah... when you're used to getting close to 19,000 XP for a 1st time completion on NORMAL at level 8, doing quests at 17 and 18 seem totally worthless.

  9. #29
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    Default Ideas; suggestions

    If Turbine's goal is to get people to run a bunch of different quests:

    1) Give a stacking 1% bonus to xp for each different quest run sequentially. If you repeat a quest before running a different one, then your streak breaks. It might be neat to get to level seven and see a "you have completed 73 different quests in a row--73% bonus" message.

    2) This would also solve the problem of end level quests giving stinky xp. A 200% bonus might make The Riddle Palatable.

    3) Would people still break their streak at level 11ish for von3 and shadow crypt? Probably.


    If Turbine's goal is to get people to group:

    1) Disable the private group option once someone enters a quest. Once you start, anyone within a few levels can jump in.

    2) This would be terrible. There is no good way for this to be implemented

    3) You could also just remove the scaling feature, but again, a lot of people would get mad at Turbine.

    If Turbine wants people to start running amamrath again:

    1) Make the quests give epic rewards (increased xp) and drop tokens.

    2) Hell, there is no good way of dealing with amaranth or house c quests. they fit into a weird place xp-wise, and their loot is no longer necessary once you get to level 20ish. This will continue to be a problem once you increase the level caps. The same goes for Stealer of Souls, which now had a bad system to get inferior armor.

    Idea:

    Is there any way to tweak the commendations-upgrade idea so that you can add stuff to the Amarath or SOS stuff? I might not like my dragon touched robes, but if I could add a blue slot to them at 20 and a rainbow slot at 24 which would hold anything, maybe not so stinky anymore?

    I'd really love to see a way to upgrade some of that level 13-18 gear to make it useful again at epic levels. Let me tweak my tharnes goggles to add seeker at level 20? sure, i'd run VOD again for something like that.

  10. #30
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    Apparently I'm a day late and a dollar short...

    There is an official thread on this very subject... Not for the same reasons really, but because the XP curve gets so bad, their is a thread discussing the upcoming XP revamp for TR, as well as gaining XP at the low levels. (But the low levels wasn't the problem really.)

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...est-XP-Changes

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastrd View Post
    I think you overestimate the challenge of elite difficulty quests. Scaling or no, they will be solo'd. For a multi-life TR with some good gear, elite is about as challenging as normal for the first-timers.
    More than once, while BB streaking, I found myself on the situation of most of the party dead, and I having to solo a scaled elite quest. I know it is not THAT tough for experienced players.

    But right now, if you go solo, the mobs deal less damage, have less HP, and IIRC, have lower saves too. For certain character types (like light monks), if you bring more people or not is the shifting point where you go from "auto-pilot" to "need to open my eyes to not die". And depending on your mood, you don't want to bring people that might not handle the heat.

    If there is no scaling at all, every extra player in party is extra power, no matter what. You bring more people, you have more targets for the mobs to pick up, and more DPS to throw around.

    Casual should be perma-scaled to one player.

    Normal should scale as today.

    Hard should scale up to 4 players. The fifth and sixth are free of scale.

    Elite should not scale at all, and be set as if the party have six players.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  12. #32
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    I don't really understand the reluctance to "fix" the XP on individual quests to make them more rewarding.

    XP requirements to level scale up as you increase in level, but XP rewards for some quests just fall away completely. It's really not difficult to set an XP/min benchmark that provides casual parties a reasonable reward while allowing veteran parties a consistent reward for their time.

    Of course, quests should be engaging and fun with an immersive storyline to play through, but if you don't meet the basic XP/min necessities for these things then the quests just won't get played as much as they should.

    Lowering the bar for 2nd and 3rd lives as has been said will be done won't encourage players to play low xp/min quests, it just means doing fewer of the good xp/min quests to level.

  13. #33
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I don't really understand the reluctance to "fix" the XP on individual quests to make them more rewarding.

    XP requirements to level scale up as you increase in level, but XP rewards for some quests just fall away completely. It's really not difficult to set an XP/min benchmark that provides casual parties a reasonable reward while allowing veteran parties a consistent reward for their time.

    Of course, quests should be engaging and fun with an immersive storyline to play through, but if you don't meet the basic XP/min necessities for these things then the quests just won't get played as much as they should.

    Lowering the bar for 2nd and 3rd lives as has been said will be done won't encourage players to play low xp/min quests, it just means doing fewer of the good xp/min quests to level.
    While I totally agree the nonsensical heroic xp bell curve of most rewarding quests in the middle - falling off to smaller amounts at both the low & high ends needs addressing, I'm not sure xp/min is the best metric to go by...

    I mean, how do you figure it?

    Full group killing all as they go?
    With/without opts?
    Even if you look at inviso-zerging, a monk vs a hvy armored toon (WF can't take off armor feats) will have different times.

    I suppose you could look at some sort of averaging of all of the above...

    TBH, I honestly don't have an easy solution to offer. IMO quest xp should be dependent on assessed general difficulty, type and variety of challenges... Things of that nature, but then I say this fully realizing that's my pnp background talking.
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  14. #34
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    Current xp rewarded its a nonsense.

    Quest heroic xp rewards should follow a linear progression

    lvl*X*K1*K2*K3 = total xp granted

    X = base xp per level of a quest....say 200
    K1 = coefficient based on the quest duration
    K2 = coefficient based on the quest difficult at level
    K3 = little extra for an end chain quest

    easy and fast, auto calculated on each new quest when you define level, duration and challenge that a quest should offer.

  15. #35
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    TBH, I honestly don't have an easy solution to offer. IMO quest xp should be dependent on assessed general difficulty, type and variety of challenges... Things of that nature, but then I say this fully realizing that's my pnp background talking.
    I don't think you need to have a solution. You're not a game developer. What is needed is to determine what is needed to make the game fun and let the devs take it from there. What would be fun for me is to not bank XP so that I'm at level 19 when I take 18. I either want more quests or more xp on the existing quests. XP/min is not a concern to me. A lot of quests that are "good" xp/min are pretty crappy if you solo them or aren't a geared out vet.

    What is needed is sufficient XP for a newb to run each quest on normal and be able to advance with minimal repeats. A TR should be able to run hard and normal with minimal repeats and advance. A TR3 should be able to advance after E/H/N. Even with bravery bonus, that means more quests or more xp/quest. Given that we probably need all the dev time possible devoted to making more level 20+ and particularly 25-28 content, just tweaking XP sounds right to me.

    This whole XP smoothing is not necessary if they just give more XP in the 16-20 range. It doesn't matter what the XP curve is if you properly calibrate the XP of quests in level range to the curve.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    While I totally agree the nonsensical heroic xp bell curve of most rewarding quests in the middle - falling off to smaller amounts at both the low & high ends needs addressing, I'm not sure xp/min is the best metric to go by...
    IMO, the best metric is looking at the XP curve and ammount of expected quests to level. And that i bringing no correlation to ammount of quests available to level.

    Let's say the devs expect people to run 15 quests before leveling up, and you need 150k XP to go from level X to Y. By that metric, on average, each level X quest should give 10k XP on completion, on normal.

    This DO NOT means that regardless of lenght and difficulty, every quest should give 10k, but some quest might give 6k base, and 4k in optionals (Shadow Crypt), other might gives only 5k, but have half the expected lenght (IQ), and a powerhouse giving 20k, but having a very challenging final fight (New Invasion) or being really, really long (Pit).

    The problem is, after level 18 or so, the XP curve requires so much XP that you are running much more than 15 quests to leveling up. And instead of balancing the XP to adjust to this, they really tank down the XP to extend what was "endgame".

    I don't think XP/minute is a fair metric because quest knowledge and zerging mentality can bring those numbers down really quick. On a proper wiki path, shadow crypt is a 7 minutes quest. On a group doing it for the first time without any extenal help, it can take one hour or more.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I'm not sure xp/min is the best metric to go by...

    I mean, how do you figure it?
    You take a party of between 4 and 6 average players, say 4 to 6 QA people, you create a "typical" party with caster, healer, trapper, melees/ranged and you time them through the quest on hard. They shouldn't zerg, but they should do all optionals. That becomes your benchmark. If the XP for them was less than 1k/min then you adjust it up to 1k/min, adjusting optionals to make them worth doing based on an estimate of how much time they added. You then set the Normal XP to 75% of this and you set the Elite XP to 125% of this.

  18. #38
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    ^This.

    IMO, Elite quests should NOT scale at all. Like raids. That alone would be enough incentive to group more.

    If you want to solo, normal still scales. Hard scales, but less. If you want elite bravery, you get a group, or face the challenge.
    I have to agree with this. It should not be significantly easier to solo elite content than it is to pug it.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    ^This.

    IMO, Elite quests should NOT scale at all. Like raids. That alone would be enough incentive to group more.

    If you want to solo, normal still scales. Hard scales, but less. If you want elite bravery, you get a group, or face the challenge.


    I would remove all scaling.
    Scaling removed any reason to have a full party.
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    and several once viable raiding alts dumped into the packmule stables..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Too bad I 'purchased' maximum character slots for my account, SSG has now chosen to cater the giveaway perks to benefit multiple freebie accounts instead of the paying customers.

  20. #40
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    I would remove all scaling.
    Scaling removed any reason to have a full party.
    I like scaling. It helps solo players. I remember back before Khortos that some character types could not leave the tavern because they couldn't beat the old tutorial quest by themselves. Specialy finesse rogues and wizards (back when level 1 spells cost was 10 SP across the board).

    What I agree is that Elite should not encourage solo play. And the best way to do this is removing scaling from this difficulty setting.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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