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  1. #1
    Community Member mpetrarca's Avatar
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    Default When profits are blatantly more important then quality

    I do not begrudge a company to making a profit, but when quality of a product takes second seat to profits we all loose. Warner Brothers bought Turbine and the most unique MMO on the internet is slowly going down the tubes. There will be those so in love with DDO they will be blind to the signs of a failing game. Turbine came up with a profitable free to play system that brought new players to the game, and with more players it is more easy to form groups and less waiting around for groups to fill, a win win for all.

    Now we have a new augment system, there are pros and cons as with all changes, but the change is so blatantly profit motivated it is sad and disgusting. Last year I bought a 650tp armor kit for an epic armor I had, now if I want to change the augment in that armor I need to upgrade it loosing my armor kit and have to buy it again if I still want it. Just the fact that they come out with well over 100 different augments and no way to store them shows just how poorly the new augment system was thought through. I grant you that augment bags were released after the players complained, but really should the players need to complain when it is undoubtedly going to fill a limited banking system with so many varieties. I bought the huge augment bag which is not big enough to hold all the different augments, but once again the bags themselves are poorly thought out. The bags are the same color used for taps and do not have a search system like ingredients bags or a sort like the collectables bags. Hey Warner Brothers you really want my money, stop thinking about profits first and start thinking more about the game and I will pay.

  2. #2
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    What's really funny is that there are a lot of people (like me) who have stated that they won't buy the blatant cash-grab items but they would buy items that are more reasonable. For instance the armor kits that are one use only. I refuse to buy an armor kit that works as you describe above. But I would buy more than one if they were permanent items that could be re-used (as they are moving to). I would buy even more of them if they were like LotRO and were not bound at all so I could trade them between my many characters.

    The same goes for storage items like bags. Since they are bound to character I have purchased one and only because my crafter needed it. If they were bound to account I would buy more because they would be more useful for my many characters.

    I guess Turbine must use some kind of metrics that demonstrates to them that the current method will make them more money. But I still wonder if making items bound to account wouldn't end up making them more money.

  3. #3
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    When DDO first went F2P it was done in a way that was very positive and reinforcing to the customer. They said that the only thing that they would ever sell in the DDO Store were Adventure Packs, Cosmetics, and Convenience Items.

    Personally, I do not agree with any of the complaints given here. You purchased a Cosmetic for your armor, knowing what it was that you purchased. They have since come out with an even better cosmetic system, but that does not mean that they need to be backwards compatible. The Augment system certainly should have some kind of storage device, but there are several ways to gain the Augments in game. Both of these items fall under the original purview of Cosmetics (even if you do not like the particular cosmetics system, which has since been replaced) and Convenience, since you can get the exact same things of the AH.

    The blatantly profit driven items, which they originally assured the player base they would never sell, are the character power items. Either direct character power, such as the Tomes of Fate +2 (See the absurd statements made about how "Oh, it can drop." with a chance that is a tiny fraction of one percent, and from only two chests in the game here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Fall-of-Truth) or by circumventing game mechanics to acquire raid loot while it is still 'easy' to do so with Raid Bypass Timers.

    I can't really say if it was the change in leadership that caused them to veer away from their originally stated goal for F2P, or if they found their model to simply not be economically viable for a game as small as DDO. But either way, it is rather disappointing to see.
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-20-2013 at 02:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Default Running with the title...

    When profits are blatantly more important than quality, you get what DDO has become and seems to be becoming more of.

    This game has often been referred to by it's player base as a "niche" game, and it's a beautiful truth. This was a never going to be a contender with WoW or whoever else happened to have the #1 spot in terms of highest population MMO. It's combination of complexity and wom advertising made it a haven for those of us seeking refuge from the hum-drum standard MMO model of play. It wasn't a game to cut your teeth on, it was one you graduated up to.

    Sadly it seems that this "niche" status was unacceptable to those seeking moar profits. DDO seems to have been steadily trying to move from meat to milk in terms of how easily anyone can come in and craft a content stomping toon from the start. From flattening out the learning curve (especially through the up-coming enhancement pass) by reducing opportunities to (and the penalties for) make(ing) mistakes, to drastically reducing difficulty (scaling!) so that soloing your way through elite has gone from accomplishment to standard; the game has clearly been targeted to a new audience.

    Between the relatively recently developed requirement to release new material regardless of it's state of readiness, and a palpable push to give it's players maximum opportunities (and incentives) to purchase the store bought short cuts and grind mitigators; you have the new DDO: filling with more flash than substance and falling ever farther away from it's former state of D&D nerdvana.

    While it may well be that the moves they're making with the game will make it more desirable to a broader audience, it seems to be becoming less so to it's originally intended audience.

    That's how I see it anyway, but maybe that's just me...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  5. #5
    Community Member mpetrarca's Avatar
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    Default You have to be kidding me

    I just was looking at my huge augment bag and the little buttons to scroll up and down in the bag do not even work, is there any quality control at all?

    Yes I agree that the loyal customer base is starting to loose thier loyalty, and that is because Warner Brothers seems to have very limited problem solving skills. The changes to the enhancement system are really not need if only 2 thing were done. Firstly a built in character planner would greatly help in character generation and understanding of the enhancements. Also, the pdf manual included with the game download is such a joke I see no reason to even include it.

    A large group of the players in this game come from pen and paper, if Warner Brothers want to increase the customer base why not do things to attract more people that come from pen and paper? I would love to see DDO be more like pen and paper and even include adventures that were published for pen and paper. D&D has been around for about 35 years, that is a lot of pen and paper players to try to capture as customers.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    When DDO first went F2P it was done in a way that was very positive and reinforcing to the customer. They said that the only thing that they would ever sell in the DDO Store were Adventure Packs, Cosmetics, and Convenience Items.

    Personally, I do not agree with any of the complaints given here. You purchased a Cosmetic for your armor, knowing what it was that you purchased. They have since come out with an even better cosmetic system, but that does not mean that they need to be backwards compatible. The Augment system certainly should have some kind of storage device, but there are several ways to gain the Augments in game. Both of these items fall under the original purview of Cosmetics (even if you do not like the particular cosmetics system, which has since been replaced) and Convenience, since you can get the exact same things of the AH.

    The blatantly profit driven items, which they originally assured the player base they would never sell, are the character power items. Either direct character power, such as the Tomes of Fate +2 (See the absurd statements made about how "Oh, it can drop." with less than a .002% chance from only two chests in the game here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Fall-of-Truth) or by circumventing game mechanics to acquire raid loot while it is still 'easy' to do so with Raid Bypass Timers.

    I can't really say if it was the change in leadership that caused them to veer away from their originally stated goal for F2P, or if they found their model to simply not be economically viable for a game as small as DDO. But either way, it is rather disappointing to see.
    I don't particularly care if they sell power items as long as they are also reasonably available in-game and I agree with the thread that you linked that most of them are not. I simply addressed those items that I actually would purchase from the store - I have not and likely will never purchase power items.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    I see a bunch of personal gripes about subjective stuff you want, or annoyances... this thread doesn't seem to match it's title.

    Look at the wiki and see what a +2 tome of fate buys you that playing the game wont buy you...

  8. #8
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I see a bunch of personal gripes about subjective stuff you want, or annoyances... this thread doesn't seem to match it's title.
    Really? I would think observations of instances where the growth of purchasable quantity out pace the growth of quality seem quite in line with the title.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  9. #9
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Really? I would think observations of instances where the growth of purchasable quantity out pace the growth of quality seem quite in line with the title.
    LOL, that sure is a flowery way to describe gripes about minor annoyances

    All but one "bag" in the store is like that... what "outpacing"? They all reuse existing colors, the taps bag is just the latest in line to be re-used, and frankly one of the least likely bags you'll have in your inventory considering the shreds stack (making the tap bag pointless) and nothing else goes in them. The armor kits were a terrible idea with a terrible implementation, from a couple years ago... nothing new here, "growth"? the new slots fix most of that, oops that is a higher quality solution to the problem, so that would appear to be growth in a positive direction no?

    Unbound huge bags bought in the store will just be passed to each character at login, the age old and self serving argument that is repeted here so often that they will sell MORE of them if they allow you to pass them among your logged in character at will is completely farcical, a 6 year old would figure out they don't need more than one huge bag if they can be shared.

    Name the thread "I don't like the new bag and the old armor kits", but lets get over the idea that we're discussing fundamental quality issues with the game. Those do exist. But no one's actually brought any of them up.

    Lets talk about the Beta inventory UI that shuffles your stuff every time you swap gear. How about Combat animations which are dated, overly repetitive (swing swing TWIRL swing swing TWIRL), glitchy, stuttering and down right bad looking in most cases (Monk's Jump kick where he appears to hover and twist along the axis of his outstretched leg looks so wrong it's hard to imagine it would put in the game)... How about the LFM system... Quality issues with this game are mostly really old

    Let me add this steaming hot piece of sh!t forum...
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-20-2013 at 09:07 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member mpetrarca's Avatar
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    Default How long does it tke for a naysayer to wake up?

    As always there are the naysayers, too bad the naysayers can’t see all the little gripes are pointing to a dismal future of the game. What do little bugs like seeing the location selection from a guild ship when you leave a ship tower in The 12 and House K, that the bugs are getting fixed? That bug has been going on for over a year and adding to and changes to the game are just more variables to sort through to fix the bugs. Deepwood Sniper never got fixed; they just changed wording to match how it worked. I have the Epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger which has Improved Paralyzing and I have yet to see it paralyze anything since I turned level 20 in the last week. Yes quality of the game is going down and changes that are being spoken about seem to indicate a total disregard for all the hard work players have put into their characters.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Unbound huge bags bought in the store will just be passed to each character at login, the age old and self serving argument that is repeted here so often that they will sell MORE of them if they allow you to pass them among your logged in character at will is completely farcical, a 6 year old would figure out they don't need more than one huge bag if they can be shared.
    FYI, Huge bags were unbound when f2p started. Due to a bug, shocking, I know, an exploit was uncovered. Without notice, bags were made BtC from BtA. They have never been changed back. Some of us were fortunate to get and still have the old BtA Huge bags.

    Bottom line, if you thought Turbine had thought about your rationale, it wasn't evident when they put the bags for sale and it wasn't the reason they stopped them being BtA. Now, it could be someone turned 6, and figured out your stated logic which is why they never made the Huge bags BtA again - or it could be the bug is still out there, unfixed. Care to wager on which is more likely?
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  12. #12
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    There is one reality, one truth you should remember when doing business with any company, no matter what size they are.

    Any business that puts something before profit is either not going to last or is lying to you.
    The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    <-- double post -->

    wow another weird thing these downgraded forums can do ... didn't see that in YEARS!
    Last edited by Urjak; 06-21-2013 at 01:55 AM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    The main problem I see with this is that they are, in the end, just hurting themselves. Here a short story:

    After MotU came out, well there at first was summer, with me not spending so much time in front of the computer and then in autumn some personal problems came up, that hindered my gameplay ... so effectively I returned about a month ago and was mostly absent sind MotU.

    Pre-MotU, I was totally addicted and when I now had the chance to play again, the addiction returned almost instantaneously. Since that also was the time when Otto's Boxes were on sale, I purchased one and TRed my Barb into the Shuriken build I always dreamed of making.

    In around a week I finished the TR and started working on my destinies and gear.
    Now around 4 weeks later, I have most of the gear I want and my motivation to play has sunk so much, I already didn't bother playing for a few days ... by choice, even though I had time!

    So why the sudden loss of motivation?

    The answer is quite simple: Because I failed to resist the temptation of the DDO-Store.

    .) I skipped most of the TR-Leveling with an Otto's Box
    .) The rest I accellerated with Greater XP-Tome (from MotU) and permanently running 20% XP pots
    .) The incredibly hard to find deathblock augment? => free sample of the week
    .) EE Menacles of Ceaseless Toil, EE Quiver of Poison, EE Helmet of the White Dragon, Flawless White Dragonscale Robe, EN Treads - all bought from Shard Exchange
    .) +4 Tomes? bought from Turbine Store
    .) EE Dreamvisor, EH Jorgundals, Planar Shard of Power, Epic Spare Hand, Spelltouched Shurikens, Grave Wraps, Adamantine Knuckles, Bow of the Silver Flame, Globe of True Imperial Blood, some random lootgen weapons ... those I farmed out very quickly myself.
    .) Tinah ... although I wanted Celestia, I got on my first run ... had to switch some feats to take Whirling Steel Strike ... so Celestia would still trump Tinah as offhand weapon, but no biggie
    .) Missing augments: => Store

    So after 4 weeks of playing the only things missing:
    .) Celestia, but Tinah does just as well, Celestia would free up two feat slots though (no annoying KI-loss when using Manyshot with bows, without Zen Archery)
    .) EE Treads ... oh well 2 Dex more or less ... sure would be nice ... but not game breaking
    .) Kyoshos Ring ... sure those +2 damage would be nice .. but then I couldn't wear Jorgundals ... so meh ...
    .) Maxed out destinies: doesnt matter as I the most efficient twists for this toon are all level 1 twists, and those I already unlocked (although for Fury l3/1/1 would be optimal ... anyways not far away as I already have l2/1/1)
    .) Alchemical Shuriken, Handwrap and Antipode: yeah those are the only 3 items actually missing ... whereby alchemical farming is incredibly annoying as groups are super slow to fill and droprate is beyond terrible ... maybe if I am very, very bored I might farm out Antipode one day.
    .) Oh yeah .... and past lives, but since I have no idea whether: ranger PL works with shurikens (ranged damage is not used consistently throughout DDO) and very unsure about whether it stacks with monk PL ... super small gains for lots of work ...

    All in all:
    4 weeks gaming + some $$ on my credit card (oh and a banked T3 hp greensteel cloak) almost maxxed out my toon.
    After 5 (?) or so years of playing DDO, this is the FIRST time I ever managed to finish a character.

    Conclusion:
    With all these changes to endgame and the store it is now incredibly easy and fast to max out just about any character (as long as you don't need alchemical weapons^^).
    This leads to a rapid loss of interest in playing the game (nope I won't quit, but I don't think I'll be playing even remotely as much as I could)

    PS:
    Thank God, I copied this Wall of Text before hitting submit, as the #@%&§#@§ downgraded forums already logged me out again >:[
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    I can't really say if it was the change in leadership that caused them to veer away from their originally stated goal for F2P, or if they found their model to simply not be economically viable for a game as small as DDO. But either way, it is rather disappointing to see.
    It might just be the simple realization that no matter how much people whine and gripe, the power items sell better than cosmetics and convenience. I'm sure they started with good intentions but profit is profit.
    It's not like the gamers are innocent of the current state of the industry.

  16. #16
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    There is one reality, one truth you should remember when doing business with any company, no matter what size they are.

    Any business that puts something before profit is either not going to last or is lying to you.
    More like not going to last, they all lie to you whether they're successful or not. Every business transaction in real life should be approached like making a deal with a devil in game, look for the fine text where they're going to stick it to you, it will always exist.

  17. #17
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    a 6 year old would figure out they don't need more than one huge bag if they can be shared.
    If the bags can’t be shared I need ZERO huge bags. I will stick with unbound smaller bags, because I can deposit them in shared bank and the toon that need one can pick it. Store bags are convenience items. I have smaller bags and mules. If the store bags are not better and are save-time I don’t want them. If store bags were bta and they would have an organization system I would buy several. One or two huge bag for seals, scrolls and shards; one huge for ingredients greensteel, dreaming and cannith pack; one huge for cannith crafting ingredients and shards; one augment bag; several huge collectible bags…

    But btc and without sorting system? They are useless for me. I never will buy any bag from the store.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  18. #18
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    If the bags can’t be shared I need ZERO huge bags. I will stick with unbound smaller bags, because I can deposit them in shared bank and the toon that need one can pick it. Store bags are convenience items. I have smaller bags and mules. If the store bags are not better and are save-time I don’t want them. If store bags were bta and they would have an organization system I would buy several. One or two huge bag for seals, scrolls and shards; one huge for ingredients greensteel, dreaming and cannith pack; one huge for cannith crafting ingredients and shards; one augment bag; several huge collectible bags…

    But btc and without sorting system? They are useless for me. I never will buy any bag from the store.

    This is exactly why i have not (yet) bought any Store Bags.

    So instead of some money, they have gotten none from me.
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  19. #19
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    Edit: Double post due to horrible forums.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 06-21-2013 at 07:03 AM.
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  20. #20
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    There was a distinct shift in development priorities as soon as the payment mode changed from monthly to free to play.

    In a monthly payment model, any design decisions are based on gaining subscribers. As there are no microtransactions, there is no need to build them into the game or build roadblocks into the game that require store purchases to bypass or go through more efficiently. You build your content in the hopes that current subscribers remain happy and perhaps you gain some new subs in the process.

    I'm not going to argue that Turbine could have kept the subscription model and stayed profitable with DDO. This is almost certainly not the case. Microtransactions saved the game, but at the same time it has warped game design to allow for these microtransactions to make money. In many cases, spending money won't necessarily allow you to "pay to win" though it will allow you to pay to go faster or bypass certain obstacles that have been put into the game on purpose in order to sell you widgets to bypass them. This simply does not occur with a subscription model. All design and development decisions now have to take into account the DDO store.

    Edit: Turbine your cruddy forums are really starting to get on my nerves. Please fix or revert them. Even Microsoft can admit when they've made a bad move.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

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