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  1. #1
    Community Member THOTHdha's Avatar
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    Default Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

    I wanted to touch on something that was said in the Epic TR thread but was a bit off topic, without distracting from the conversation there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

    This particular response to that got me thinking:
    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    things like +2 tomes of fate are rare, just like when +4 tomes were rare at one time because there will always be the fallback reply that they do exist and we have options other than having to pay.
    When ToD was the only place where you could get +4 Tomes, they were rare. You could very easily not see one under your name until you got to your 20th completion rewards. But you would be pretty hard pressed to go through those 20 completions without seeing several of them dropping under other people's names.

    These Tome of Fate drops from CitW and FoT are not rare, they are mythical. Which makes me wonder which of two possibilities might be more accurate.


    It is possible that they are intended to actually drop rarely in these two newest epic raids, but there is some bug that makes them about as rare as having any other DDO Store item drop under your name. Which is to say, not a realistic possibility. But because of a lack of communication players do not know that there is anything wrong so they have no reason to submit bug reports about the drop rate. And developers do not quite have enough of an idea of what is going on in game to see that there is something wrong with what is happening.


    Another possibility is that it is quite a bit of fun to troll players. As long as it has happened once the statement can be made that these items "can" drop in those raids. "No, really, Tomes of Fate aren't a problem because you can get them ingame from the two new raids! You haven't gotten one yet? Well, just keep grinding, I am sure you will eventually! No need to mention that you can rack up an entire year's worth of completions and remain likely to never even see one drop for your group, let alone pull one yourself." After all, "never" is apparently a valid chance for an event to happen:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Double Rainbow's chance to trigger is unchanged.

    As with most updates Double Rainbow's large list of effects has had some new additions, and some effects now have different chances of triggering, including possibly zero percent chance.

  2. #2
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    I wanted to touch on something that was said in the Epic TR thread but was a bit off topic, without distracting from the conversation there.




    This particular response to that got me thinking:


    When ToD was the only place where you could get +4 Tomes, they were rare. You could very easily not see one under your name until you got to your 20th completion rewards. But you would be pretty hard pressed to go through those 20 completions without seeing several of them dropping under other people's names.

    These Tome of Fate drops from CitW and FoT are not rare, they are mythical. Which makes me wonder which of two possibilities might be more accurate.


    It is possible that they are intended to actually drop rarely in these two newest epic raids, but there is some bug that makes them about as rare as having any other DDO Store item drop under your name. Which is to say, not a realistic possibility. But because of a lack of communication players do not know that there is anything wrong so they have no reason to submit bug reports about the drop rate. And developers do not quite have enough of an idea of what is going on in game to see that there is something wrong with what is happening.


    Another possibility is that it is quite a bit of fun to troll players. As long as it has happened once the statement can be made that these items "can" drop in those raids. "No, really, Tomes of Fate aren't a problem because you can get them ingame from the two new raids! You haven't gotten one yet? Well, just keep grinding, I am sure you will eventually! No need to mention that you can rack up an entire year's worth of completions and remain likely to never even see one drop for your group, let alone pull one yourself." After all, "never" is apparently a valid chance for an event to happen:
    I think it would be nice for Turbine to apply a rarity tag to these sort of things in conversation so we have some sort of ballpark idea of how often they are supposed to drop.

    Static, 100% - this item will always drop. Examples are keys in chests or token fragments, scales in Tor (though the amount varies)

    Common, 25%-99% - you should expect to see this item within a few lootings of a chest. Raid tokens and vale pie pieces in casual runs fall into this category

    Uncommon, 10%-24% - You could easily ransack a chest and not see an item at all, though that would be unlikely. Tor chests with multiple item possibilities fall into this category. Your chance of any particular item is low, but your chance of any item is within this range.

    Rare, 5%-9% - Most items in recent packs seem to fall into this range, probably closer to 5%. It may take several ransacks to find an item you're looking for.

    Ultra Rare, 0.5%-4% - I'd guess items like the Bauble fall into this category. Probably around 1%. You could ransack for weeks on end and never find it.

    Mythical, 0.1%-0.4% - Items like this are extremely rare. Without dev confirmation, we may never even know they exist or are on the loot tables. These are items that you hear a friend of a friend saw someone pull but they forgot to get a screenshot so you dismiss it as myth. These fate tome probably fall into the rarer end of this category. 1 in 1000 pulls, you may see one.

    Mathematically Possible, Less than 0.1% - Like the +5 tomes from epic elite CitW which were reported to be close to 1 in 20,000 odds of pulling. These items are like winning the lottery. They are not worth actively farming for as you could grow old and die before ever seeing one drop.

    If the devs could adopt some terms like this, they could relay the approximate rarity of an item without giving exact details (which they are very hesitant to do).

    With only one reported +2 fate tome, the rarity could be anything, even 1 in 100,000,000,000 with just one lucky pull.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 06-19-2013 at 11:22 AM.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  3. #3
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    Saw a +1 tome of fate drop in EH CitW yesterday, so I can say for a fact that they can drop. Not under my name ofc, but they can drop for someone else...

  4. #4
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilII View Post
    Saw a +1 tome of fate drop in EH CitW yesterday, so I can say for a fact that they can drop. Not under my name ofc, but they can drop for someone else...
    Pretty sure +1 tomes can drop from any chest. It's the +2s we're after.

  5. #5
    Community Member CheeseMilk's Avatar
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    Got my +1 Fate Tome from Haverdasher, so yeah, any chest.

    No screenie, sorry.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Mythical, 0.1%-0.4% - Items like this are extremely rare. Without dev confirmation, we may never even know they exist or are on the loot tables. These are items that you hear a friend of a friend saw someone pull but they forgot to get a screenshot so you dismiss it as myth. These fate tome probably fall into the rarer end of this category. 1 in 1000 pulls, you may see one.

    Mathematically Possible, Less than 0.1% - Like the +5 tomes from epic elite CitW which were reported to be close to 1 in 20,000 odds of pulling. These items are like winning the lottery. They are not worth actively farming for as you could grow old and die before ever seeing one drop.
    eh, I think these might be reversed. I've seen multiple +5 upgrade tomes drop from CitW, although never for myself. I have not seen +2 Tomes of Fate drop.

  7. #7
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    eh, I think these might be reversed. I've seen multiple +5 upgrade tomes drop from CitW, although never for myself. I have not seen +2 Tomes of Fate drop.
    +5 upgrade tomes can drop anywhere a +4 drops as far as I know including loot level 27 chests and higher. +4 tomes may or may not be on the raid loot tables for CitW meaning +5 upgrade tomes may also be or it may be a case of the loot level being 27+ through loot gems or loot bonus weekends.

    I'm talking about actual +5 tomes (not the upgrade variety) which are extremely rare. I believe there was a cryptic post some time ago phrased in much the same way as this fate tome post the OP is referring to which stated that +5 tomes can drop in EE CitW. The rumored drop rate of those tomes is about 1 in 20,000.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I think it would be nice for Turbine to apply a rarity tag to these sort of things in conversation so we have some sort of ballpark idea of how often they are supposed to drop.

    Static, 100% - this item will always drop. Examples are keys in chests or token fragments, scales in Tor (though the amount varies)

    Common, 25%-99% - you should expect to see this item within a few lootings of a chest. Raid tokens and vale pie pieces in casual runs fall into this category

    Uncommon, 10%-24% - You could easily ransack a chest and not see an item at all, though that would be unlikely. Tor chests with multiple item possibilities fall into this category. Your chance of any particular item is low, but your chance of any item is within this range.

    Rare, 5%-9% - Most items in recent packs seem to fall into this range, probably closer to 5%. It may take several ransacks to find an item you're looking for.

    Ultra Rare, 0.5%-4% - I'd guess items like the Bauble fall into this category. Probably around 1%. You could ransack for weeks on end and never find it.

    Mythical, 0.1%-0.4% - Items like this are extremely rare. Without dev confirmation, we may never even know they exist or are on the loot tables. These are items that you hear a friend of a friend saw someone pull but they forgot to get a screenshot so you dismiss it as myth. These fate tome probably fall into the rarer end of this category. 1 in 1000 pulls, you may see one.

    Mathematically Possible, Less than 0.1% - Like the +5 tomes from epic elite CitW which were reported to be close to 1 in 20,000 odds of pulling. These items are like winning the lottery. They are not worth actively farming for as you could grow old and die before ever seeing one drop.

    If the devs could adopt some terms like this, they could relay the approximate rarity of an item without giving exact details (which they are very hesitant to do).

    With only one reported +2 fate tome, the rarity could be anything, even 1 in 100,000,000,000 with just one lucky pull.
    Why would they possibly want to do such a thing? If the only reason these things have any drop rate at all is so they can say they can drop in game without lying, why would they want to point this out?

  9. #9
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Why would they possibly want to do such a thing? If the only reason these things have any drop rate at all is so they can say they can drop in game without lying, why would they want to point this out?
    Honesty, transparency, positive PR, goodwill toward players, a feeling of doing something positive in their hearts instead of that trollish feeling they normally have there when they post things such as "Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth."

    I guess I just want to believe that deep down, people want to be good. It's just so much easier to be evil. Or at least neutral. I don't believe there is a reason to hide approximate drop rates. Turbine believes that their game will crash and burn if people ever knew the actual drop rates. I've come to the conclusion after this past week that Turbine is no longer qualified to determine what would lead to their game crashing and burning.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  10. #10
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Maybe you should run some epic elite FOTs. I am pretty sure that is where I got my +2 tome of fate.
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  11. #11
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Maybe you should run some epic elite FOTs. I am pretty sure that is where I got my +2 tome of fate.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an EE FoT be the same "loot level"(and thus same drop rate) as EHard w/+1 loot gem or ENorm w/+2 loot gem?

    Either way, I'm firmly of the (potentially tinfoil hat) belief that they (Tirbine) do indeed assign exceptionally low drop rates to items they want us to buy, jus so they can claim it's not strictly a store item.

    The claim that it "has a chance to drop in (X) raids' loot" is by no means the same as claiming it has a realistic chance to drop.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  12. #12
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    When ToD was the only place where you could get +4 Tomes, they were rare. You could very easily not see one under your name until you got to your 20th completion rewards. But you would be pretty hard pressed to go through those 20 completions without seeing several of them dropping under other people's names.
    Drop rate of the tomes at that time were higher than they are now. The drop rates can be adjusted every update.

    Quote Originally Posted by THOTHdha View Post
    These Tome of Fate drops from CitW and FoT are not rare, they are mythical. Which makes me wonder which of two possibilities might be more accurate.
    If you know where to look you can get the actual drop rate values...


    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Mythical, 0.1%-0.4% - Items like this are extremely rare. Without dev confirmation, we may never even know they exist or are on the loot tables. These are items that you hear a friend of a friend saw someone pull but they forgot to get a screenshot so you dismiss it as myth. These fate tome probably fall into the rarer end of this category. 1 in 1000 pulls, you may see one.

    [...]

    With only one reported +2 fate tome, the rarity could be anything, even 1 in 100,000,000,000 with just one lucky pull.
    Lower than Mythical, Higher than 1/100,000,000,000...
    There's more chance to get a +2 Fate Tome from FoT than from CiTW.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    eh, I think these might be reversed. I've seen multiple +5 upgrade tomes drop from CitW, although never for myself. I have not seen +2 Tomes of Fate drop.
    Oh it can drop... it's just that the drop chance is so retarted that it doesn't matter much... ( less than 0,002% )
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  13. #13
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    At the moment tomes of fate doesn't do much when you are at 5 ranks in all destinies. If you do the math with any possible combinations the 2 additional fate points you can potentially get from tomes don't give you anything.

    This could change if a new destiny is added of course.

    Without a tome, you can get 18 fate points

    Tier 4
    Tier 2
    Tier 1

    18 fate points

    Tier 3
    Tier 3
    Tier 1

    18 fate points

    Tier 3
    Tier 2
    Tier 2

    18 fate points

    With 11 destinies the tomes really only help while you are working on maxing out destinies. Of course with the new epic TR system, they can be very useful since you will start with 2 extra fate points each life.
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    I wish Tomes of Fate dropped from at least one quest. It's just too important of an item to leave to the two biggest raids.

    Not everyone has easy access to the big raids, especiolly for more than one run.

    Just one quest, maybe two, would be enough..

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an EE FoT be the same "loot level"(and thus same drop rate) as EHard w/+1 loot gem or ENorm w/+2 loot gem?

    Either way, I'm firmly of the (potentially tinfoil hat) belief that they (Tirbine) do indeed assign exceptionally low drop rates to items they want us to buy, jus so they can claim it's not strictly a store item.

    The claim that it "has a chance to drop in (X) raids' loot" is by no means the same as claiming it has a realistic chance to drop.
    If +2 tomes of fate are considered "named loot" in FOT then loot bonuses would have no effect. It could be like the draconic soul gems and only drop on EE. We just don't have enough info to know for sure. (Or at least I haven't seen it someone out there may know)

  16. #16
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    If +2 tomes of fate are considered "named loot" in FOT then loot bonuses would have no effect. It could be like the draconic soul gems and only drop on EE. We just don't have enough info to know for sure. (Or at least I haven't seen it someone out there may know)
    Yes that is where I got my tome from the main chest which is not affected by loot gems or the like. Pretty sure on that particular run we got skunked and got no raid loot, but got a twist of fate or something like that. Ran a nice ee yesterday. Not the only group that runs ee on Khyber either. Just not run very frequently because requires a lot of specific builds and high caliber players.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Honesty, transparency, positive PR, goodwill toward players, a feeling of doing something positive in their hearts instead of that trollish feeling they normally have there when they post things such as "Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth."

    I guess I just want to believe that deep down, people want to be good. It's just so much easier to be evil. Or at least neutral. I don't believe there is a reason to hide approximate drop rates. Turbine believes that their game will crash and burn if people ever knew the actual drop rates. I've come to the conclusion after this past week that Turbine is no longer qualified to determine what would lead to their game crashing and burning.
    I believe that Turbine Management, probably with help from that Zynga person they hired, decides how to "tweak" the game to get the most money from players. The developers have no choice but to do what they're told. I sometimes wonder if that's why the devs don't communicate more - they don't like lying to us but they have no choice. Better to say nothing.

    Having Tomes of Fate drop only in CitW and FoT, even if they dropped more frequently, means nothing to players who don't raid (which I believe is most players).

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    At the moment tomes of fate doesn't do much when you are at 5 ranks in all destinies.
    Most people don't have 5 ranks in all destinies.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Having Tomes of Fate drop only in CitW and FoT, even if they dropped more frequently, means nothing to players who don't raid (which I believe is most players).
    There is nothing stopping players from raiding. Except for Raid Timers, which can be circumvented with a DDO Store purchase.

    If they were to make the Tomes in the two raids have a reasonable drop rate, since they are locked behind Raid Timers, it would make the statement that "Tomes of Fate drop in loot" go from a technical truth but realistically simply trolling the customers to being something that players could viably work towards. If they were to put the Tomes of Fate in a very difficult quest that does not have a Raid Timer, even with an absurdly low drop rate, it would also make the statement more viable since players would be able to farm for it to their hearts content, within the confines of weekly ransacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Most people don't have 5 ranks in all destinies.
    "Most people" who are considered among the DDO accounts probably do not even log in regularly. That really does not have anything to do with anything at all. There is a realistic, even if not something that everyone wants to pursue, path to earning Fate Points in game, up to the ED cap. The only real problem with the Tomes of Fate is that they allow people to go beyond that cap, and there is no realistic method of working towards them in game currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    At the moment tomes of fate doesn't do much when you are at 5 ranks in all destinies. If you do the math with any possible combinations the 2 additional fate points you can potentially get from tomes don't give you anything.
    "At the moment" is the key part of that. When the system rolled out with 10 EDs, the difference between maxing them all and maxims them all with a +2 ToF was very big. Once there are 12 EDs, and so 20 earned Fate Points, the difference will once again be quite meaningful for some builds. For example, a 4/3/1 or a 3/3/2 split would only be possible with a +2 tome.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    There is nothing stopping players from raiding. Except for Raid Timers, which can be circumvented with a DDO Store purchase.
    The reason most players don't raid has nothing to do with any particular game mechanic stopping them

    There are probably various reasons why most players don't raid. A few that I can think of would be:

    -Many players don't like PUGs
    -Many players are casual and CitW and FoT are very difficult from a casual perspective
    -Many players don't have time to raid
    -Many players don't play at times conducive to there being enough players to raid

    And that's off the top of my head. My point being that if an item is only available in raids that is removing it from reasonable attainment by a large portion of the player base.

  20. #20
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    if an item is only available in raids that is removing it from reasonable attainment by a large portion of the player base.
    i think that is a GOOD thing. get raiding and learn to play the game folks!
    Shmuel Xadin Xadins Errand Mohnster Yitzhak

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