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  1. #1
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Default return "end game" to its former glory easy and quick.

    Revamp the following packs/raids; Amrath, Shroud, sub-t (Vod, Hound) MARTY and LoB. To scale to the current level cap on EH, and EE.

    Polish their loot (base affixes, augments) and make them all use the commendation system, but add additional tiers of heroism each tier adds +2 ML, up to the present cap 28 by the time this gets done.

    Expand CitW and FoT, heroism tiers the same way.

    Polish loot and add heroism tiers to Alchemical and Eveningstar challenge loot.

    Expand "turn in" rewards with heroism tiers. (purple dragon knight gauntlets, T5 upgraded ML 28)

    Epify the Necropolis, give most loot in the pack the same heroism upgrade mechanics, even non raid stuff. In the future, have augment slots play a big part in the heroism upgrades, because they are future proof.

    An example might be: TOD ring, T1 ML22 typical upgrade and cost T2 ML24 clear augment, T3 ML26 high cost yellow augment, T4 ML28 expanded cost bump the base stats of the ring up up +1 T5 ML30 (effectively ML 28 until cap is raised) blue augment, requires the equivalent of a T4 TOD Ring as an ingredient.

    Expand the number of commendations and collectibles that are needed to upgrade significantly past the first tier or two. Make the gradual improvement of your chosen gear a big part of the repetition. And specific collectibles from each area a key upgrade ingredient as a gating mechanism to reduce repetition of the easiest or most farmable quests.

    Institute a week long 3x repetition penalty. Or a once a day timer on all the quests, and typical raid timer on the raids.

    Suddenly "end game" is back to its former glory. Yes greensteel items with augment slots and heroism upgrades... some of which should naturally be allowing new shards to be crafted onto them... but at ultimate cost; cleanser for each new shard/tier effect.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-19-2013 at 10:50 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    even non raid stuff.
    that's the basic problem with the suggestion...its way too raid-focused. Raids are not the whole and entirety of endgame. Less focus on "everything builds up to grinding a raid for loot", more focus on enjoyable repeatable content that grants gradually increasing rewards.

  3. #3
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    that's the basic problem with the suggestion...its way too raid-focused. Raids are not the whole and entirety of endgame. Less focus on "everything builds up to grinding a raid for loot", more focus on enjoyable repeatable content that grants gradually increasing rewards.
    But the lack of good raiding is the biggest problem with end-game.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    But the lack of good raiding is the biggest problem with end-game.
    For you... I think the other poster was saying not everyone agrees with that approach to the game.

  5. #5
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    For you... I think the other poster was saying not everyone agrees with that approach to the game.
    Then those other people should specifically mention what is lacking.

    And they'd still be wrong, lack of raiding is the issue.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Then those other people should specifically mention what is lacking.
    I did...

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Less focus on "everything builds up to grinding a raid for loot", more focus on enjoyable repeatable content that grants gradually increasing rewards.
    What exactly do you do once you get everything from a raid? Complain that there isn't enough raid content, that you need a new shiny to obsess about for 2-3 weeks until you get it? Then complain that old raids are obsolete because of the new stuff and no one runs it anymore?

    That's why I said less focus on raids, more focus on repeatable content with small, gradual rewards. Less power creep, less redundancy in rewards (ie, you can only wield one weapon at a time, for most chars) and less "consumable" content, ie stuff that you can definitively "finish".

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    that's the basic problem with the suggestion...its way too raid-focused. Raids are not the whole and entirety of endgame.
    Raids CAN be a nice big part of end-game, when there's like TEN of them to run instead just one or two.

    As cool as various Epic Destiny abilities are, I prefer the pre-U14 game. I used to never lack for things to do at level-cap end-game. Like I said, TEN raids we ran on a regular basis, and many, many 6-man Epic quests that had relevant loot, and were hard enough to be challenging without being so hard that only cheesy junk worked at all.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    As cool as various Epic Destiny abilities are, I prefer the pre-U14 game. I used to never lack for things to do at level-cap end-game. Like I said, TEN raids we ran on a regular basis, and many, many 6-man Epic quests that had relevant loot, and were hard enough to be challenging without being so hard that only cheesy junk worked at all.
    See . . . I'm torn on this. A lot of the post U14 content is great but I have to agree the game was overall better before U14 (hell, let's go back to U11 where things really went to hell).

    The "cheesy junk" thing is dead on with EE. The mobs hit too hard and their saves are too damned high. Cheesy junk is the best call.

    And raids? What raids.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Raids CAN be a nice big part of end-game, when there's like TEN of them to run instead just one or two.

    As cool as various Epic Destiny abilities are, I prefer the pre-U14 game. I used to never lack for things to do at level-cap end-game. Like I said, TEN raids we ran on a regular basis, and many, many 6-man Epic quests that had relevant loot, and were hard enough to be challenging without being so hard that only cheesy junk worked at all.
    You can still do that part of the pre-U14 end game now. Just never level beyond level 20 and always TR whenever you hit level 21. OH yeah, and start your own raid groups and limit to characters level 18 to 20.

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  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    You can still do that part of the pre-U14 end game now. Just never level beyond level 20 and always TR whenever you hit level 21. OH yeah, and start your own raid groups and limit to characters level 18 to 20.
    You've got to be kidding me.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You've got to be kidding me.
    Why is that? Because everyone else is at level 25 with cool epic destiny abilities and your characters must have the same thing or better?

    I was just saying to the OP if he or she likes the fun at level 18 to 20, the OP can limit the characters to levels 18 to 20 in his small group. There is nothing in DDO that stops the OP from doing that.

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  12. #12
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    You can still do that part of the pre-U14 end game now. Just never level beyond level 20 and always TR whenever you hit level 21. OH yeah, and start your own raid groups and limit to characters level 18 to 20.
    You forgot your sarcasm tag or are a troll imo. End game was much better pre motu because there were more than 2 raids that were relevant. Next expansion there are going to be zero relevant raids. This means that regardless of what turbine does to etr there will be no endgame other than people soloing stuff on ee to sell for tp points ext.

  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Raids don't fill when said raid has no loot worth pursuing. This is just reality, your proposal denies reality.

    Nobody stays level 18-20 long enough to bother raiding anyway. You're either in epic levels or back on Korthos.

    Seriously, can the snark as it doesn't make you look any more intelligent.
    this

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    See . . . I'm torn on this. A lot of the post U14 content is great but I have to agree the game was overall better before U14 (hell, let's go back to U11 where things really went to hell).

    The "cheesy junk" thing is dead on with EE. The mobs hit too hard and their saves are too damned high. Cheesy junk is the best call.

    And raids? What raids.
    I was against the level cap being raised to level 20 for various reasons. But one of the reasons was the spreading out the playerbase too much. When the level cap was 20, players were willing to take a bit of a hit in the XP pocket to have level 20s in their group so grouping was a lot easier and friendly. It didn't matter if it was raids or regular quests, both leveling up players and Epic players were willing to help each other. When it comes to Post-MOTU, once a player hits level 20, they want nothing to do with heroic quests since the XP is so horrible compared to Epic quests. Also, many Heroic players really don't want Epic players in raids since it kills the XP as they level.

    A part of me wishes that the Devs had told us about Epic Destinies when they asked if we wanted the level cap raised to 25. I'm not sure it would have changed everyone's mind, but I think that if Epic Destinies were pitched as a substitution for Epic levels, the game would be healthy now. Epics wouldn't have to be "watered down" to the Normal/Hard/Elite difficulties, since EDs would have boosted several classes powers so they wouldn't be as gimped as they were in the original Epics. Upper level heroic quests could still be given a harder than current epic difficulty, since level 20s could enter them with no penalty.

    It's all water under the bridge, but I think the game would have been much healthy if the Devs went that rout. And this is one of the reasons why I'm really leery about the level 28 cap.

    But I agree with the OP that bringing the all the raids currently in the game up to Epic levels would help alot with the endgame. More content will always help, but that takes time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    You can still do that part of the pre-U14 end game now. Just never level beyond level 20 and always TR whenever you hit level 21.
    This would be fine if the 20th loot award was dropped to a single digit number or raid timer was removed without the aid of the DDOStore. But with both of those in there, that's not practical from very many people.

  16. #16
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I agree many of the raid items could benefit from a Epic update system. Something not as cumbersome as the Seal/Shard/Scroll system that was introduced initially, but maybe something that would make the item not only Epic level appropriate but leverage the existing Augment System to allow for customization, and maybe the crafting system.
    Last edited by Enoach; 06-19-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    that's the basic problem with the suggestion...its way too raid-focused. Raids are not the whole and entirety of endgame. Less focus on "everything builds up to grinding a raid for loot", more focus on enjoyable repeatable content that grants gradually increasing rewards.
    Hold on, I am talking about the raids AND the entire pack those raids are in. So Bastion, Coal Chamber, Power play, Ghosts of perdition everything. Even most non raid loot gets Epic polished and commendation upgrades... this makes old epics upgradable over time up to cap ML30 as you upgrade them.

    Also I spaced and meant to include Epic Sands and DQ, keep them all at their current heroic level, but for epics make them all scale up to cap.

    Basically it's just a really intensive loot polish pass and beefing up some mobs CR's.

    Your last line is exactly what I want, gradual upgrading epic loot and raid loot, limiting repetition to a non farming level (max reps per week or perhaps 1 per day for each quest something not too restrictive but that don't promote "do it 10 times in a row until ransack")
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-19-2013 at 04:43 PM.

  18. #18
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    the only problem with scaling is that it takes these existing Epics out of their current range. It could be argued that the "Bar is Getting Raised, and the Have-nots are again left behind"

    I would actually like to see the current epics appropriate for their current range (maybe a revisit on the CR to HD conversion that has put the damage output and saves out of whack) and add new content for the 25 to 28 (and beyond).

    But this will require a good mix of Quests and Raids. Doing only one will miss the whole that is End Game.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    [...] Even most non raid loot gets Epic polished and commendation upgrades... this makes old epics upgradable over time up to cap ML30 as you upgrade them.
    But this will also meant that you cannot use them at level 20 to 27 since the item is capped at ML30. (or ML28)
    Also, Did Feather of Son not mention that old loot is old loot and he won't upgrade them?

    Also I spaced and meant to include Epic Sands and DQ, keep them all at their current heroic level, but for epics make them all scale up to cap.

    Basically it's just a really intensive loot polish pass and beefing up some mobs CR's.
    There are problems with this request:

    1) Turbine won't do it for no revenue since a lot of people already owned these packs.
    2) These will take efforts as someone would need to do a loot polish pass and mob pass.
    3) Raising CRs won't solve anything. Its the same set of monsters in the same places, same stories, same AI, same path, same dungeon layout, same type of traps and same saves (reflex) and same trap locations. People will get tired of it in probably ONE week.
    Why running something where there is no fun, just bigger numbers?
    Last edited by Tyrande; 06-19-2013 at 04:33 PM.

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  20. #20
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    The "Commendation System" needs to change in one major aspect... The "Commendations" need to go back to being called "Epic Raid Tokens"/"Greater Tokens of the Twelve" which they essentially are.

    This also has the effect of opening up "End Game Raiding" from 2 raids to ....5? (Chrono, VoN, LoB in addition to Caught in the Lag and Fot... Is MA epic-able too?)

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