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  1. #1
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Question Question: TWF vs THF

    Hey all, jumping back into the game after >9 month hiatus. I primarily play melee toons and prefer to fill DPS/Off-tank role. Current life is WF Paladin DoS TWF khopeshes which I like enough to go through some epics and farm some destiny XP (but reading about the planned epic TR where you lose all ED destinies but one per epic TR not gonna go to deep into it, but off-topic).

    Anywhoo, simply wondering what the current state of the game stands in terms of melee DPS with TWF and THF. Seems eSoS is still boss, but seeing a lot of great two handers in the wiki. Epic khopeshes... nothing that makes me go "oh snap!" although who wouldn't love dual eChaosblades (if only for style points).

    Sigh... even with new forum ya still can't search? And yea I've heard about the Juggernaut build but cant seem to find the thread but wondering if its viable TWF (feats would seem awefully tight to get TWF line in addition to the ranged feats necessary for a viable manyshot burst DPS)

    Simply soliciting some advice, knowledge, etc from those still familiar with the game. Thanks in advance!
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  2. #2
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post

    And yea I've heard about the Juggernaut build but cant seem to find the thread but wondering if its viable TWF (feats would seem awefully tight to get TWF line in addition to the ranged feats necessary for a viable manyshot burst DPS)

    Simply soliciting some advice, knowledge, etc from those still familiar with the game. Thanks in advance!
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-the-Warforged
    There be Juggernaut.
    In regards to making a TWF version of it, it's doable. It means sacrifices, but definitely doable. I've heard that THF is more viable for current endgame, but I don't care to be honest. If I feel like pulling out two bastard swords and wasting feats, I will. (I'll do that this life if I get a second Nightmare ^^)

  3. #3
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    ...at the moment THF has some edge over TWF; requires less feats and gear to aquire.

    The alpha enhancements will balance it back anf make it fashionable to be TWF again. DPS wise both options seems equal in my experience.

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  4. #4
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Outstanding - thanks for the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    ...at the moment THF has some edge over TWF; requires less feats and gear to aquire.

    The alpha enhancements will balance it back anf make it fashionable to be TWF again. DPS wise both options seems equal in my experience.
    Sooo... basically hasn't changed much in 9 months lol! Pretty much what I figured, just wanted to be sure wasn't overlooking something.

    Thanks, I would like to see TWF gain a slight edge over THF concerning DPS. I mean, it IS twice as gear intensive. Maybe not to the tempest ranger era, but something to make the extra gear grind worthwhile.

    Re:Equal DPS - Do you mean currently on live or with enhancement pass on lamania?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post

    Re:Equal DPS - Do you mean currently on live or with enhancement pass on lamania?
    I think they are about equal on live*.

    *Unless your a barbarian, then THF is way better.

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  6. #6
    Community Member TheGuyYouKnow's Avatar
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    generally speaking TWF provides better single target damage whereas THF brings AOE damage
    as far as best weapons are concerned THF still has the ESOS on top
    and TWF has blizarde: http://ddowiki.com/page/Balizarde,_P...or_of_the_King

    in the end tree always wins.
    Last edited by TheGuyYouKnow; 06-19-2013 at 07:54 AM.
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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    We've done a zillion EE Sobrien beat-down tests and the TWFing toons always came out ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We've done a zillion EE Sobrien beat-down tests and the TWFing toons always came out ahead.
    Moar big numbers = moar deeps, SMAAASH !!! What do you know ?
    Any chance for posting "results " ? Or at least "observations" :P 2xBaliz, 2xCelestia, 2xMornh, lit2 khops ...

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Moar big numbers = moar deeps, SMAAASH !!! What do you know ?
    Any chance for posting "results " ? Or at least "observations" :P 2xBaliz, 2xCelestia, 2xMornh, lit2 khops ...
    it is more DPS against multiple targets.

    The results are all out of date and need to be redone but since we've pretty much all TR'd since then that's gonna wait.

    Fastest time was about 18 seconds . . . with dual Nightmares but that's cheating!

    Getting fresh times with no bows or woowoo weapons is on the to-do list.

    What got me was a Tempest ranger (I think, might have been the kensai) getting pretty much the same time with dual fully-upgraded Balizardes as he did with Lightning II Greensteel and a Triple-Air Achemical. Lucky lightning-strikes happen.

    Also dual Celestials was only a hair behind dual Balizardes . . . and he's a fire immune target. With the same guys swinging the weapons.

  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    There is another TWFing advantage over THFing that I consider huge. Huge enough that I know people who've switched ESoS toons over to TWFing.

    The tactical situation of the game won't always allow you to Blitz, sometimes the quest has too many loading screens, too few mobs, or not enough of a lop-sided group. In those situations FoTW is superior to LD (in any situation where blitzing is an option LD is superior).

    When in FoTW TWFing is superior . . . a lot of the bonus damage is per-swing and we no longer have the awesomely bugged extra glancing blow damage. The biggest advantage with TWFing FoTW is TWFing toons regenerate their adrenalines a hell of a lot faster.

    My ESoS toon in FoTW sometimes won't even get an epic moment charged before the quest is over. My TWFing toons (especially a Tempest) will regenerate Adrenalines almost as fast as they can use them.

    Of course TWFing requires the feats and stat investment as well as twice as many weapons.

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    All good points man.
    Have you done that with unbridled, blind/helpless/sneak allowed ? Celestia blinds on crit so I think yes.
    Yeah, neg levelling shouldn't count.

    I think I asked Cetuss once about Sobrien in that one thread comparing thf weapons, ~ 25 seconds. SO wonder what your "ballpark figure for twf would be ".

    The thing is, every twf weapon is great on its own and has something useful.
    Got lit2 khops, drow khops, dual Balizardes, Celestias, Mornhs, and pierce/slash/blunt imp crit ( don't ask lol ) at this point on my fighter and just can't decide. And incoming enh pass is not helping either.

  12. #12
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    All good points man.
    Have you done that with unbridled, blind/helpless/sneak allowed ? Celestia blinds on crit so I think yes.
    Yeah, neg levelling shouldn't count.
    The conditions for our testing (once we get back to doing it again) was/will be.

    - 4 person scaling (he needs more HP)
    - My Warchanter bard giving you songs and blinding the target with PW:Blind scrolls
    - You are allowed to make the target helpless. FoTW would have to reset ENH otherwise.
    - No Bows (he has too few HP)
    - no WooWoo weapons (seriously, my 24 STR clonk has killed him in less than 30 seconds with the dagers)
    - no epic moments (too much of a pain to wait to charge up).

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    I think I asked Cetuss once about Sobrien in that one thread comparing thf weapons, ~ 25 seconds. SO wonder what your "ballpark figure for twf would be ".
    We have a dark-monk in guild who's done it in about that time with dual celestias and FoTW. No film though.

    Also Cetus is a completionist with every toy in existence as well as a greatly skilled player in the chair. Just because HE can do something doesn't mean it's typical of the weapon style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    The thing is, every twf weapon is great on its own and has something useful.
    Got lit2 khops, drow khops, dual Balizardes, Celestias, Mornhs, and pierce/slash/blunt imp crit ( don't ask lol ) at this point on my fighter and just can't decide. And incoming enh pass is not helping either.
    Just test them out yourself.

    I'm currently moving my toons away from Khopesh. believe me it's not easy putting two Epic Chaosblades and a zillion Tier 3 Alchmicals in the bank. Who knows if that'll change.

    Mornhs are great on paper IF you're a Kensai III and IF you're in LD. LD isn't always the best option.

    I have three TWFing melees (two THFing, but not really relevant to the conversation). Switching all of them to pierce-specced going with Celestias and Balizardes. One still needs to pull his second Celestia and all his Khopeshes are getting shelved.

    - Nightmare for trash. Seriously these things are wonderful. The more HP the mobs have the better and they are especially nasty on high-HP orange names.
    -Balizarde for bosses (slotted Good) - I joke about getting 4 per toon so I can have a second set slotted for an element . . . but that's just crazy.
    - Celestia for DR breaking. As it breaks nearly all DR. Also has the advantage of being easily centerable from what we saw in the alpha of the ENH pass.

  13. #13
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies all looks like TWF is still top for single target DPS which is my focus in my small static group.

    Just a final question: Right now I have dual LIT2 khopeshes and will be a while until I can farm CitW for the awesome weaps there. Should I stick with them or are there relatively easy to get bridge weaps I can get? I do have a crafter with ~110 in all levels if thats an option.
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  14. #14
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    Lit2s khops are still solid and perfectly fine until you get citw weapons. Don't bother with crafting or hunting named/randomgen twf weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Lit2s khops are still solid and perfectly fine until you get citw weapons. Don't bother with crafting or hunting named/randomgen twf weapons.
    Agreed that Lit II are still solid, but disagree that you shouldn't bother with crafting. Holy burst of greater bane khopeshes still beat out everything but Balizarde for damage.

    I've run extensive #s in spreadsheet based on (roughly) my damage bonuses on my TWF tempest/kensei and I have a really hard time finding weapons that out DPS my Lit IIs (except for crafted boss bane weapons). Drow Khopesh beats it, but only if there is no DR to over come. Brazingstar, Mohrn, Phosphor, and Coranation can all edge it out, but only if running in LD instead of Fury (which is a bad trade for a TWF toon IMO). Balizarde beats it handily, but here's the catch: to switch to Balizarde you really want to have 2 (or 4) Balizardes and 2 Celestia for DR beaters, and that's a lot of raid gear. Even then you lack the versatility that you get with a golf bag full of khopeshes, you just get a small boost in DPS. When I compare even really really good random loot gen weaps for anything but khopeshes, they all fall short of Lit II khops. So yes, Lit II khopesh is still a viable endgame weapon (unlike Lit II for any other weapon type).

  16. #16
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    . . . Balizarde beats it handily, but here's the catch: to switch to Balizarde you really want to have 2 (or 4) Balizardes and 2 Celestia for DR beaters, and that's a lot of raid gear.
    I did this . . . for three characters . . . it took me a year . . . still need comms for upgrades.

    Thing about the Celestias is damn those proc effects go off all the freeking time for a bunch of extra damage that I'm not sure how to calc in. My Celestia beat-downs versus Sobrien are only a few seconds off those of full-upgraded Balizardes and he's a fire immune target. If I has to be stuck with one set of weapons you could do a whole lot worse.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 07-11-2013 at 11:15 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Holy burst of greater bane khopeshes still beat out everything but Balizarde for damage.
    Is it worth to make hb gob on ml silver blanks anymore ? Of course with 35 silver/good DR it makes sense but noone runs ToD anymore, and biggest contribution in Shroud is fury unbridling ( and adrenaline, unbridled crits ignore DR ).
    I've made a pair, but it's rotting in bank most the time.
    I've run extensive #s in spreadsheet based on (roughly) my damage bonuses on my TWF tempest/kensei
    Would you be so kind to post some MATH ( gasp ! ) perhaps ? :P
    I haven't played with barrage lately and only subjective observations like Bitzing Drink the water or other quests.
    I have settled with Baliz+ Mornh off hand ( 10 stun+seeker is very handy ).
    Celestia + fury + gird against demons is super annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Is it worth to make hb gob on ml silver blanks anymore ? Of course with 35 silver/good DR it makes sense but noone runs ToD anymore, and biggest contribution in Shroud is fury unbridling ( and adrenaline, unbridled crits ignore DR ).
    I've made a pair, but it's rotting in bank most the time.
    I mostly use it for CitW, where everything seems to take the bane damage, even the elves. I use my silver ones; since I'm in fury gird gives me cold iron on them also and they are GEOB, so it covers pretty well. Ran one last night with some pretty good toons and noticed at the end I was the kill leader, for what that's worth. I use them in Shroud/Amrath whenever I run that also, but when running anything else they sit in my bag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Would you be so kind to post some MATH ( gasp ! ) perhaps ? :P
    I haven't played with barrage lately and only subjective observations like Bitzing Drink the water or other quests.
    I have settled with Baliz+ Mornh off hand ( 10 stun+seeker is very handy ).
    Celestia + fury + gird against demons is super annoying.
    Sure... I've never tried to insert tables here but I'll give it a shot:

    Code:
    damage bonus	37	37	37	37	37	37	37	37	37	37
    base	11.5	10	24.5	14.5	22.5	10	16.5	20.5	18	19.5
    crit range	4	6	4	6	4	4	8	4	6	6
    crit multiplier	3	2	2	2	3	4	2	2	3	3
    bonus x on 19-20	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1
    base proc1	7	7	7	7				10.5	9	
    base proc2	3.5	3.5	5.5	5.5	30	5.5				
    base proc3	9.15	9.15								
    base proc4										
    vorpal proc1								13		
    vorpal proc2										
    crit proc1	11	11	45.5	5	7	49.5	7	14		7
    crit proc2	11	11								
    crit proc3										
    crit proc4										
    seeker	10	10	10	10	10	10	10	10	10	10
    double strike%					30					
    total/swing	100.3925	95.7175	102.85	89.9	160.1275	101.675	89.375	90.3	109.3	105.325
    	Lit II khopesh	Lit II scimitar	Braisingstar	Phosphor	Duergar WA	Deathnip	Drow Rapier	Celestia	Balizarde	Drow Pesh

    Hmmm, not sure how to clean up the columns. Anyway, you can see I've played around with some #'s. The DAs are for a build I'm planning next life and include glancing blow damage and double strike damage, despite the fact that neither is 100% reliable (depends on attack sequence, cleaves, special attacks, etc), but it gives a good idea. The table can easily be adjusted to include things like frenzy, pulverisor, etc. and some of the stats change if you modify for tier 4 upgrades, etc.

    Formula used is:
    =(((B1+B2)*(19+B3*(B4-1)+2*B5)+B16*(B3*B4+2*B5)+19*SUM(B6:B9)+sum(B10:B1 1)+B3*SUM(B12:B15))/20)*(1+B17/100)
    in case you wish to deconstruct it. This let's you modify for base damage mods and a variety of factors that may modify multipliers, but I have yet to find a way to easily calculate in for attack sequence, special attacks (ED abilities, cleaves, etc) and such since there is no reliable method to determine how often they'll likely get used.


    *edit note* there are many weapons I've plugged in and then deleted because they fell short of Lit II, so most of that won't appear here.

  19. #19
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Nice - Thanks for the numbers. Was looking over the Wiki and there aren't many named khopeshes and the ones there are seemed lackluster but thought I might be overlooking something. And yea, I already have a pair of silver and cold iron HB GL/COB. Looks like I'll have to add a few pairs with giant and dragon bane.

    Thanks again all. I really want a pair of Celestias. Numbers wise, Ballizarde are awesome but celestia just looks sexy lol!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    Nice - Thanks for the numbers. Was looking over the Wiki and there aren't many named khopeshes and the ones there are seemed lackluster but thought I might be overlooking something. And yea, I already have a pair of silver and cold iron HB GL/COB. Looks like I'll have to add a few pairs with giant and dragon bane.

    Thanks again all. I really want a pair of Celestias. Numbers wise, Ballizarde are awesome but celestia just looks sexy lol!
    You are correct, there is a lack of named khopeshes. People get excited about epic chaos blades, never really understood why. Still, the base profile for khopesh is so superior that they beat out really everything but Balizarde, which is pretty impressive.

    I noticed my #'s did not include my HB of GEOB, which came out to 106/swing, which beats even drow pesh (and beats DR as needed). Another weapon set I use A LOT is my crafted +5 bodyfeeder of vampirism and epic elemental water. The combination of decent CC and decent life gain makes for a good survivability increase, enough to make up for a small loss in damage. I use that combo a lot when soloing so that I don't have to stop to heal very often, but when running in a raid group, or a group with good healing, I typically go full DPS option and pitch in some cocoon between fights to help out the healer.

    Not sure I'd bother with other bane weapons, it's just too much swapping. I do keep smiters for quests that are heavy on portals or WF mobs, and 3xpos and/or disruption for undead. But generally I pick a good DPS combo and just go. Lately that's been my drow pesh (finally got one) and a HB of superior bloodletting. If you really want dragon bane just make epic Calomel, they're much better at it than anything else. By my calcs for my damage profile calomel does 122.7 against dragons that take cold damage, 117 if against dragons that don't take cold, and 107 against non-dragons that take cold damage..... matter of fact, it's time for me to make some of those. Those #'s don't even include the red slot, which I assumed to be slotted with good. If the target (dragon or otherwise) has the "fire" trait those #s improve even more (by about 6/swing)
    Last edited by Inoukchuk; 07-14-2013 at 10:50 AM.

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