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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    You suggest that a character lose only the exp in a chosen destiny. However, it does not change the fact that in order for a character to get the Epic Destiny feat for each of the destinies, he/she has to start over and earn the exp for each destiny. This is where I think most people take umbrage with what is currently on the table.
    It's not a concern I've saw from the original thread discussing all of the options. Only losing a single destiny is the most generous option that's been proposed. Expecting to simply retain all of your currently capped destinies but somehow receive 11 Epic Destiny Past Life feats without any additional effort isn't an option. I'm sceptical that Turbine will go for the single-ED-loss option, and am prepared to deal with a complete wipe if that's what happens. But it's still the most generous realistic possibility on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    What is being offered is something that will strip away the equity I have earned and invested money to build. No matter how one slices it, it is really bad form on behalf of Turbine. The pessimist in me sees this as a means of enticing those of us who bought all the Otto's boxes, to buy more and more of the things in order to TR repeatedly, all over again, and lock every destiny. I do not mind spending money on the game, but, I do mind when the gains from my financial investment are negated. I also mind it when the time I have invested is made worthless.
    I don't have a particularly high regard for stoners, but that's a personal opinion and you're perfectly entitled to purchase and make use of any legitimate feature that Turbine bring out, and like it or not the XP Stones were part of that. But you're equating any potential loss of your ED experience as negating the money that you spent. It sounds as if you have purchased multiple boxes to try and short-cut the path to Completionist, but you have picked up a past life feat each time and taken a step closer to completionist. Picking up some easy Epic Destiny XP along the way is just good sense, and this is exactly what I did. If they wiped your past life feats from you then you might have a point here, but trying to combine the two makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    Take for example, completionists: What happens when a new class is introduced to the game? Currently, completionist characters lose the benefits of the completionist feat, until they TR two more times to earn the past life for the new class.
    That's not how Completionist works. Once you have the Feat you keep the Feat even when other classes come out. It's not an automatic disable as the description would have you believe. All that happens is that IF you TR and a new class is available which you do not have the Past Life Feat for, then you will find when you get to level 3 that the Completionist Feat is no longer an option to you because you no longer qualify for it. So it's not an auto-wipe.

    I've also got a side bet going that the new Iconic Past Life Feats will not be a requirement for the Completionist Feat because they're not true "Classes". If it turns out that I'm wrong, then that just means that my next 4 lives will be to cycle through the Iconics first, picking up Iconic Past Life Feats and Epic Destiny Past Life Feats in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by tharveysinjin View Post
    I want to believe that this was an oversight on behalf of the developers. If it is, then I would hope that Turbine implements the new ED system in a way that automatically grants a lock to every ED that a character has capped. Anything less than that is insufficient, because anything less is tantamount to destroying the equity that we players have established in our characters.
    If you mean unlocking any capped ED so that you can freely select them to spend points on when you Epic TR (assuming Turbine press on with a full wipe of unbonded ED's) then I'm 100% in favour. If you mean that just because I have all destinies capped right now that I should automatically get 11 ED Past Life Feats and the Epic Completionist when this goes live then I'm 100% against it.

    At the end of the day, choosing to spend money to accelerate your progress through a life is your choice (or skip from 8 to 18 in the case of using an XP stone with a full set of XP boosts running). Equally, deciding that you want the benefits of Epic TRing will also be your choice. If you choose to do one to help you achieve the other, that's also your choice. You're also free to just ignore the whole Epic TR option and just have fun with your Completionist with maxed out Destinies and hope that things change further down the line.

    The one thing that you don't mention is Turbine's proposal to wipe your ED XP on a Heroic TR. That for me has to be a no-go. We must keep the option for characters to Heroic TR and continue to gain their Past Life Feats with an option to do some work on their Epic Destinies each life without any loss of ED XP. Whatever option Turbine go forward with, it should only be Epic TRing that would affect your ED XP.

  2. #102
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Absolutely Signed!

    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    I don't even have a vested interest character wise.
    I think its very noble that although your initial reaction was shrugs, whatever;
    that you took the time and energy to offer a solution to the problem.

    You also identified the core problem quickly, and came across in a logical
    manner without flaming the developers.

    You organized work quickly led to proposal 2 being acknowledge by the devs
    as being under consideration. That alone is truly noteworthy and if proposal 2
    is the final result, then this thread and that podcast made it happen.

    All I can say is thank you for this effort and for making some of my solo farming
    more humorous in the past.

  4. #104
    Community Member dunmoore's Avatar
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    I honestly think that their system is overall better(opinion). Although I also see where you guys are coming from,,,,I think when you epic TR you should pick which one/ones you want to reset. That way you get the best of both worlds.

  5. #105
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    Default The game breaker

    I love that people are voicing opinions and trying to create ideas to save this game we enjoy on a daily basis. The reincarnation system that turbine has in place that plans to obliterate our hard earned destinies will surely be the games downfall with other competitive MMO's out there presently taking clientele away from our game.

    If you promise people that they will not lose their destinies if they TR and have them Destiny xp farming for the past six months and more to power up their toons, then pull a full 180 and then tell them that we are taking all this hard earned work away from you at a meager whim, there are bound to be catastrophic results.

    All solutions must exclude any possibility of losing all your destinies permanently. I love your solutions, maybe some need to be tweaked a bit. One tweek like creating an option to Heroic TR separately from ETR with no penalty to destinies at all, which will have people continue to TR if they wish and DDO will continue to have those hearts of wood flowing in the DDO store instead of killing 90% of TR sales with their present solutions. Another tweak, being able to ETR to apply the bonuses you mentioned instead of going through the whole process of heroic TR when you don't need any more heroic TR for your toons makeup weather you are a completionist or not.

    To address another issue entirely that everyone has seemed to overlooked. Completionist in my eyes has been the downfall of this game and DDO has lost most of its past clients from the continuous grind to reach this status. Before completionist came out, people would build different classes and switch to another class to help fill up a raid and things just flowed better and easier. The whole ddo community worked together. What the completionist format has created is to ensure that people create and run 1-3 toons and farm all the gear and then take a break from the game and try another game until an update comes out with new gear.

    What DDO can do to rectify this problem, multiply its clientele and keep people in the game without these extended breaks is to setup bonuses for running 6-7 different classes per account, and after all 6-7 account toons having maxed out their XP and destinies would obtain an account wide bonus to each character such as +4 build to all the accounts toons. Increase the drop rate for those that carry 6-7 toons, which would create a better understanding of each class for players in the game. It would have people getting loot more often, working on more characters that will keep them interested in the game and extending the life expectancy of DDO. What we have now with completionist is players who TR alone or in a twosome and then take off after they have farmed out all their loot after several months with no contribution to the game or its community.

    Food for thought

    Kally - Leader - The Epic Raiders

  6. #106
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    You almost hit the nail on the head with epic destiny reincarnation.

    My proposal:

    Up to +3 fate points (negotiable actually maybe 12 FP and one more fate slot for epic destiny "completionist" is a better number, something between) from reincarnating epic destinies.

    Slight bonuses to tree for each reincarnate, capped at 3 per tree.

    You only reset xp for the tree you are reincarnating.

    5/10/15% cost increase for xp. for each time you reincarnate a tree. Add another tier of abilities somewhere between current cap, and current tier 4 in power.

    Make it work like heroic TR. Not a mirror image but same spirit.
    Last edited by hermespan; 06-24-2013 at 03:34 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    You almost hit the nail on the head with epic destiny reincarnation.

    Up to +3 fate points (negotiable actually maybe 12 FP and one more fate slot for epic destiny "completionist" is a better number, something between) from reincarnating epic destinies.
    I like the idea of making part of the reward for epic TRing the ability to pull in more powerful abilities from the other EDs you ground out. More fate points, or even better, additional twist slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    5/10/15% cost increase for xp. for each time you reincarnate a tree....Make it work like heroic TR. Not a mirror image but same spirit.
    With respect, no, no, no. For the love of mercy, no. I see absolutely no reason to increase the xp required for epic TRs, *especially* if Turbine goes with the hare-brained idea of deleting most of your EDs just because you want to TR. You already put in the work to get the ED past life feat--why have to 'pay again' with an xp penalty?

    As for the OP, nice work overall. My main criticism/revision would be that the 'epic past ED' feat that you get for cashing in a maxxed ED should not apply in the current life (not really a 'past life' feat otherwise), but immediately upon hitting lvl 20 (i.e., when you're epic again). I don't think it's an attractive offer to lose a good ED when I TR, and not get the benefit for another 8 epic levels (besides, what exactly are you going to be playing at lvl 28? The small number of dungeons in the expansion, maybe?).

    Full agreement with others who say the ability to 'opt out' of any effect on your EDs while doing a traditional, 'heroic' TR is an absolute must. TRs = $$. Penalizing those who TR = idiotic, from both a fairness and business perspective.

  8. #108

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    Sounds like a good idea Sig. In my simple assessment, it's a much more complete system than what Turbine has proposed.

    I like that when you list design goals they are big picture things. I noticed this when listening to one of your recent DDOCast shows. You talk about what you want the players to feel and how you want the game to flow. Producer Glin's 'goals' for the new TR system were very specific and seemed like they had been invented after the team had already decided on what their solution was, instead of before.

    Finally, I think you've done a great job trying to influence Turbine in a positive manor without all the "Dooo0000000ooooM!" that the forum usually generates.

  9. #109
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    I like your proposal better than what Turbine seems to have come up with.

    Still, keeping in mind that simplest solutions are usually the best, what would be wrong with simply allowing heroic tr to be a lvl 1-20 redo, without any effect on your current epic situation (once you got back to lvl 20), and epic tr being a redo of lvls 20-cap only?.

    Furthermore, why not just reset the xp in the active destiny to 0 and make that the one you get the past life feat, which happens as soon as you have releveled that destiny. Why not be able to keep all other destiny and fate point progress? You would have to reach cap anyway before you could do a second epic past life.

    Why does Turbine always make everything so convoluted (and punitive)? Why do forumites pleas for simpler solutions always retain some of the unneeded convolutedness that Turbine insists on incorporating?
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman22 View Post
    I love that people are voicing opinions and trying to create ideas to save this game we enjoy on a daily basis. The reincarnation system that turbine has in place that plans to obliterate our hard earned destinies will surely be the games downfall with other competitive MMO's out there presently taking clientele away from our game.

    If you promise people that they will not lose their destinies if they TR and have them Destiny xp farming for the past six months and more to power up their toons, then pull a full 180 and then tell them that we are taking all this hard earned work away from you at a meager whim, there are bound to be catastrophic results.

    All solutions must exclude any possibility of losing all your destinies permanently. I love your solutions, maybe some need to be tweaked a bit. One tweek like creating an option to Heroic TR separately from ETR with no penalty to destinies at all, which will have people continue to TR if they wish and DDO will continue to have those hearts of wood flowing in the DDO store instead of killing 90% of TR sales with their present solutions. Another tweak, being able to ETR to apply the bonuses you mentioned instead of going through the whole process of heroic TR when you don't need any more heroic TR for your toons makeup weather you are a completionist or not.

    To address another issue entirely that everyone has seemed to overlooked. Completionist in my eyes has been the downfall of this game and DDO has lost most of its past clients from the continuous grind to reach this status. Before completionist came out, people would build different classes and switch to another class to help fill up a raid and things just flowed better and easier. The whole ddo community worked together. What the completionist format has created is to ensure that people create and run 1-3 toons and farm all the gear and then take a break from the game and try another game until an update comes out with new gear.

    What DDO can do to rectify this problem, multiply its clientele and keep people in the game without these extended breaks is to setup bonuses for running 6-7 different classes per account, and after all 6-7 account toons having maxed out their XP and destinies would obtain an account wide bonus to each character such as +4 build to all the accounts toons. Increase the drop rate for those that carry 6-7 toons, which would create a better understanding of each class for players in the game. It would have people getting loot more often, working on more characters that will keep them interested in the game and extending the life expectancy of DDO. What we have now with completionist is players who TR alone or in a twosome and then take off after they have farmed out all their loot after several months with no contribution to the game or its community.

    Food for thought

    Kally - Leader - The Epic Raiders
    I've commented on this many times before, but if you were playing DDO prior to the introduction of reincarnation, the seeds of that were players/forumites asking for a simple way to change the class of one of their current capped toons. There were many reasons for this (eg. our guild has no bard so it would be nice if I could just switch so-and-so to a bard for awhile, but no way I intend to level-to-cap such a toon; eg2 I'm just plain bored with so-and-so, it would be nice to try a sorc, they seem fun, but no way I'm gonna level all the way to cap just to find out it's not as much fun as I thought; eg 3 you nerfed my xyz build because of your game mechanic change, which I'd be ok with if I could just easily redo my toon without having to reroll.

    To me it says everything about Turbine that the reincarnation system that was introduced never gave (and still doesn't) the basic thing the players asked for.

    All we really need:
    1. a regular reincarnation which allows you to change absolutely everything (feats, class, race, alignment)
    2. a heroic true reincarnation lvls 1-20, returning all epic stuff once back to 20
    3. an epic tr, levels 20-cap only, only releveling the destiny you are getting the past life feat from to gain that feat - you still have to get the xp to get back to 28 (cap) before you can tr again

    It wouild also be nice if recapping at levels 20 then 28 returned all your heroic then epic favour you gained previously. Been there, done that, why should I lose the credit?
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  11. #111
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    /Signed

    I like your proposal sig it is much better than turbine's initail idea of losing all ED xp when reincarnating.

    However I do find it a pain that you would have to lvl all the way back up to 28 and I like robbin's ideas here when he says:

    "All we really need:
    1. a regular reincarnation which allows you to change absolutely everything (feats, class, race, alignment)
    2. a heroic true reincarnation lvls 1-20, returning all epic stuff once back to 20
    3. an epic tr, levels 20-cap only, only releveling the destiny you are getting the past life feat from to gain that feat - you still have to get the xp to get back to 28 (cap) before you can tr again

    It wouild also be nice if recapping at levels 20 then 28 returned all your heroic then epic favour you gained previously. Been there, done that, why should I lose the credit?"

    What about an "Epic reincarnation" that only resets the chosen epic destiny and sets you back to lvl 20 or so? Wouldn't mess with anything heroic just the epic stuff. And then there could be like an Epic Destiny Completionist feat that would be auto-granted once you Epic Reincarnated through all the EDs.

  12. #112
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    I like your proposal better than what Turbine seems to have come up with.

    Still, keeping in mind that simplest solutions are usually the best, what would be wrong with simply allowing heroic tr to be a lvl 1-20 redo, without any effect on your current epic situation (once you got back to lvl 20), and epic tr being a redo of lvls 20-cap only?.

    Furthermore, why not just reset the xp in the active destiny to 0 and make that the one you get the past life feat, which happens as soon as you have releveled that destiny. Why not be able to keep all other destiny and fate point progress? You would have to reach cap anyway before you could do a second epic past life.

    Why does Turbine always make everything so convoluted (and punitive)? Why do forumites pleas for simpler solutions always retain some of the unneeded convolutedness that Turbine insists on incorporating?
    I agree 100% with what you said.

    Hey OP turbine should listen to you what you had to say, what they have currently is just going to anger a lot of players and all for nothing it doesn't make any sense or accomplish anything.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 07-09-2013 at 09:36 PM.

  13. #113
    Community Member Leclaire1's Avatar
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    /signed

    I don't necessarily think this is the only solution to the problem, but it certainly is infinitely better than the current proposal. The current proposal destroys the swappable nature of epic destinies. If it were to go through, most players would just bond a single destiny and then TR, and minimize their losses. They will also play epic content less as they won't bother grinding out EDs. The current proposal destroys all the work that players who have put the most work into this game have done. I don't think this proposal is too easy, because it will still require a 28 level life in order to get 1 epic level past life feat, and if these were stackable it adds a lot of other interesting dimensions to the game. I give it my support.

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